O/A visa and insurance experience today

[Sheryl]

11 hours ago, brianj1964 said:

I'm going up to Kalasin in 2 weeks, I would have to show my passport to the immigration there to inform them of my presence, then I will know, given that it's not only me, at least 4 in the last 24 hours is there a possibility that I have committed no crime?

 

By no possible stretch of the imagination have you committed a crime.

 

You came on a valid OA visa and were stamped in for one year accordingly.

 

The insurance requirement was not in effect when the Embassy issued you the visa.  Even if it had been I would hardly say someone entering on a visa would be themselves guilty of a "crime" if the Embassy issuing the visa had not correctly applied all criteria before issuing it.

[Mapguy]

22 hours ago, Sheryl said:

I got a much more detailed reply, maybe because I sent a more detailed message. See my prior posts.

 

They just sent out an email alert to people that stated that foreign insurance can be used, this is an opening to go back to them and report that this is not what is actually happening in practice and also that the current list of approved companies contains no options for people over 75.

 

What you should not bother  doing is ask them for advice or instructions on how to deal with Imm or an interpretation of Imm rules.  That is not their purview. What you can do is present specifics of your issue and ask them to advocate with Thai authorities to do XYZ (something other than nto require insurance at all...e.g. accept Tricare, accept foreign policies, develop an alternative option for people who cannot get insurance etc). That, they can do. May or may not bring results, but it is more than we can do and is the only avenue open to us to make high level Thai authorities aware of the various gaps in this new "system".

This post very helpfully and accurately describes the limits of foreign governmental diplomatic authority and action and how to approach the US government or any foreign government embassy or consulate in Thailand.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 hour ago, mfd101 said:

I renewed my Extn of Stay on ground of Retirement on 10 October (Kap Choeng). That was my 3rd renewal after O/A entry in 2015 & renewal in 2016. I have no health insurance.

 

If I exit Thailand between now & October 2020, with a reentry permit, am I safe to be readmitted without insurance?

 

However, you MAY be required to show insurance the next time you go to apply for another extension of stay. 

 

Joe believes that will not happen. But there continue to be various reports of Immigration offices telling past O-A visa holders seeking extensions exactly that.

 

Stay tuned... Fortunately, you have almost a full year to see the extensions issue hopefully become clear.

 

Edited November 10, 2019 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[ubonjoe]

4 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Joe believes that will not happen. But there continue to be various reports of Immigration offices telling past O-A visa holders seeking extensions exactly that.

But there have been reports of people not needing it.

Here is one for Chaeng Wattana.

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

5 hours ago, jacko45k said:

That is requiring a lot of them.... but if they want the Thai based custom! And who wants to shell out 50-100,000 baht on something that might not work at your immigration office. 

 

I think my comments you quoted re the foreign insurance certificates were in response to an earlier discussion about O-A applications abroad to Thai consulates and embassies.

 

For now, I agree, there's no indication that foreign insurance certificates will be accepted by Thai Immigration IF they end up requiring insurance proof as part of O-A based extension of stay applications.

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

2 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

But there have been reports of people not needing it.

Here is one for Chaeng Wattana.

 

 

Yes, the reports thus far have been mixed.... and the situation is unclear at best.

 

That's why I personally wouldn't feel comfortable giving anyone advice as absolute yes or no on the question of insurance being required for O-A based extensions of stay.

 

 

 

[LivinLOS]

17 hours ago, lkv said:

Only if you apply for a visa outside.

 

For extension, it must be Thai, and authorised (meaning participating in the tgia scheme).

 

It's pretty clear from the Police Order that no foreign insurance will be accepted for an extension of stay.

this is what I believe.. 

 

For an OX, who constantly comes and goes (where I would like to be in 3 years time) how would they see that.. Its not the first year, but its still certified insurance. 

[Kelsall]

On 11/8/2019 at 4:21 PM, Sheryl said:

US citizens:

 

As mentioned I emailed the Embassy and much to my pleasant surprised received a very prompt response as follows:

 

"Sheryl,

 

 

Thank you very much for your email and this on-the-ground perspective.  Over the past six months, we have been engaging the Royal Thai government (RTG) to attempt to ensure that U.S. health insurance policies can be used to satisfy the new immigration requirement for health insurance for foreign retirees.  This advocacy was done by official Diplomatic Note, as well as during the recent RTG press conference announcing the policy.  During that event, the Consul General cited US veterans with TRICARE coverage specially as a population of concern in Thailand.  At least one other Embassy (the UK) cited concern as well.

 

 

The U.S. Embassy plans to continue our advocacy with the RTG regarding the option for U.S. citizens to use existing insurance – regardless of where that insurance is based – to meet the requirements.  We acknowledge there could be a difficult transition period as the Thai’s determine exactly how to implement the new health insurance requirement.  As you note, the language in the official police order is vague in some respects.  Therefore, we may have some room to navigate and improve on implementation. 

 

 

Ultimately, this is a Thai regulation and the Thai government is the final arbiter of how this regulation will be implemented.

 

 

Again, we will continue to engage with the RTP on this issue.

 

 

Respectfully,

 

 

ACS"

 

I again encourage others -- and not just Americans - to contact their Embassies as  it appears that they at least have the opportunity to engage in dialogue on the issue, which is a lot more than we do.

Thank you, Sheryl.  This is indeed good news.  We'll see how it goes, but my guess is that we will eventually be able to use our US-based health insurance.  The US govt now takes care of its citizens no matter where they are. ????

Edited November 10, 2019 by Kelsall

[LivinLOS]

17 hours ago, Thaidream said:

If they don't stop this nonsense and either suspend the program or at the least grandfather every person on an O-A prior to 31 October 2019 there will be ongoing chaos; lots of people switching to Non O; others going the marriage route and even more going the agent route.  

Which is why, given they have explicitly stated it in the resolutions, this will spread to other visa classes.. First to non imm O retirement, then marriage, etc.. 

[LivinLOS]

1 hour ago, ubonjoe said:

But there have been reports of people not needing it.

Here is one for Chaeng Wattana.

 

Same guy who got super offended and refused to document it when the possibility that it wasnt a non imm OA tho.. 

While I absolutely agree it could be the case, and even if that was counter to the formal policy still agree it might happen, I do feel that outliers need to show a burden of proof to be taken as correct. 

[Thaidream]

22 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

hile I absolutely agree it could be the case, and even if that was counter to the formal policy still agree it might happen, I do feel that outliers need to show a burden of proof to be taken as correct. 

Sorry, cannot agree.   People in good faith post their experience, take the time to do us all a favor by reporting and then are asked to prove it as if they are automatically considered trolls and liars.   If that were an actual rule- no one would both reporting and we would all be in the dark.

 

If you won't want to believe it - don't but I will  as the majority of people are honest.

 

[jackdd]

18 hours ago, Thaidream said:

and even more going the agent route

This is exactly what they want people to do, provides a nice income for the IOs

[federicoP]

On 11/8/2019 at 4:21 PM, Sheryl said:

........

I again encourage others -- and not just Americans - to contact their Embassies as  it appears that they at least have the opportunity to engage in dialogue on the issue, which is a lot more than we do.

 

Just done with my Embassy.

 

Many thanks, Sheryl, for your activity

 

Federico

[Thaidream]

40 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

Which is why, given they have explicitly stated it in the resolutions, this will spread to other visa classes.. First to non imm O retirement, then marriage, etc.. 

That maybe their initial intention but I believe they will back off when they see the chaos that has ensued on this go around.  They will have to come up with a way for people age 75 and over to remain and/or get insured or they will see elderly people on CNN of the BBC with their stories of being forced to leave thailand after decades and returning to  nothing.

 

A diplomartic note from the US Embassy and possibly the British Embassy will alert the Ministry of Foreign Affairs- they have a problem and something needs to be done. That will make them think before moving forward.  

 

The O-A insurance project accordng to the info from the Health Ministery was to be a  pilot project and IMo the project isn't doing well.

[UncleMhee]

14 minutes ago, jackdd said:

18 hours ago, Thaidream said:

and even more going the agent route

This is exactly what they want people to do, provides a nice income for the IOs

At last more voices of reason! Sxxt went down, many lost out.....how to get it back? "Ahhh...drive the western devil back into agent's arms". Brilliant really.

[saengd]

24 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

The O-A insurance project accordng to the info from the Health Ministery was to be a  pilot project and IMo the project isn't doing well.

Is that written somewhere, if so where, please, I thought the O-X project was a pilot for this? Because if it is indeed just a pilot the future may be less certain than I think it is currently. One of the concerns must be, apart from the humanitarian aspect, is the potential for capital outflows as farangs return home (if that's what some will do). Whilst the cumulative 800k baht deposits of say 100,000 farangs isn't big money in the overall picture of things, a goodly slice of that being repatriated may cause them to stop and think.

Edited November 10, 2019 by saengd

[vivananahuahin]

2 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

Yes

 question for UBONJOE,if i quit Thailand without re entry permit,i will loose my OA visa,if i come back 3 days later on visa exemption from Laos to Thailand,i will receive one month,after 15 days i can extend to NON O visa for 90 days and 60 days before the end of this Non O  extension i ask to the immigration office a extension for one year marriage visa of NON O retirement,is it the correct way to do it, is it necessary to make every 90 days a border run with this marriage visa.What is the best for me?

If i extend to NON O retirement,i will avoid also this new rules about insurance,i have already a very good one but the autority doesn't accept it,need be a thai insurance between the 12 on the website,with this NON O retirement is it also with every 90 days border run?

About financial it is not a problem i have all the documentation and i am married in Thailand officialy and retired(73)

 

[pookondee]

19 hours ago, Exploring Thailand said:

Yeah, I think you could well be right, but I don't see what is the legal basis for excluding foreign companies. It would be very interesting to know the process and criteria for being listed on the TGIA site. Who decides which companies appear on it, and how do they decide?

Knowing the way things work in Thailand, it doesn't take to much imagination to work that out.

[brianj1964]

3 hours ago, Peter Denis said:

Of course you did not commit any crime!

You simply got a different stamp than all the other pre Oct 31 issued OA Visa holders that entered same day with you.

It looks now - at least from latest info available on TVF - that it was not you, but all the others that were stamped in wrong.  And that the 'error' of your stamp, was in fact correct.

When you go to Kalasin Immigration Office in 2 weeks as you plan to, it would be wise to enquire whether your 1 year permission to stay date is indeed correct.  In 2 weeks for sure the dust should have settled and all confusion be weeded out by then.

If they say > permission to stay is correct, then there is nothing more to worry about.  And not only you but all TVF-members are hoping for such an outcome, which at this moment looks likely.

If they say > not correct and need health-insurance, you know at least where you stand, and can consider your options.  E.g. leave the country and apply for an Non Imm O, or take the @#$% health-insurance.

Note: But under no circumstance you should subscribe for the HI-policies offered on-the-spot as these are as good worthless and exorbitantly priced, and there are thai-approved health-insurance policies (e.g. Pacific Cross) that are no rip-offs.

Success, and enjoy your stay in LOS!

 

Thanks Peter, this retirement plan has been 5 years in the making and I didn't need it to start badly, my O-A is brand new so would have to wait 12 months to ditch it for an O, if everyone follows suit then it stands to reason Thai insurance company's will talk the government to include the Non immigrant O retirees in the mandatory insurance route too because they will start to lose customers. When I turn up in Kalasin I'm sure they won't even look at the stamp only  the data page of my passport but I've never done it before, I've always avoided going when I've stayed there on previous holidays but now im here long term, I want to do thinks correctly

i have always thought visas issued before 31st as mine was (15 Oct) weren't liable for the first year and some IO,s seem to think the same, the first one at the airport said it was the entry date that mattered (Nov5th) and that's how I got caught up in this fiasco, I was surprised as anyone when I looked at the stamp later.if I have an invalid stamp then I will put it correct, grudgingly lol.

[saengd]

22 minutes ago, vivananahuahin said:

 question for UBONJOE,if i quit Thailand without re entry permit,i will loose my OA visa,if i come back 3 days later on visa exemption from Laos to Thailand,i will receive one month,after 15 days i can extend to NON O visa for 90 days and 60 days before the end of this Non O  extension i ask to the immigration office a extension for one year marriage visa of NON O retirement,is it the correct way to do it, is it necessary to make every 90 days a border run with this marriage visa.What is the best for me?

If i extend to NON O retirement,i will avoid also this new rules about insurance,i have already a very good one but the autority doesn't accept it,need be a thai insurance between the 12 on the website,with this NON O retirement is it also with every 90 days border run?

About financial it is not a problem i have all the documentation and i am married in Thailand officialy and retired(73)

 

There's no 90 day border runs with an extended (one year) O visa, based on marriage.

[LivinLOS]

52 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

That maybe their initial intention but I believe they will back off when they see the chaos that has ensued on this go around.  They will have to come up with a way for people age 75 and over to remain and/or get insured or they will see elderly people on CNN of the BBC with their stories of being forced to leave thailand after decades and returning to  nothing.

That assumes that 1) they care or 2) its not the goal.. 

[AJ5358]

We have friends that were in Thailand on OA'a issued in April of 2019. They decided to travel outside of the country just before Oct 31. When they returned on Nov 3, they were some of the unlucky travelers who were told at Don Mueng Airport that they needed to apply for insurance, leave the country and return to Thailand in order to receive their new 12 month stamp for Nov 2020. However, since then others have arrived in Thailand and have been given there 12 month stamp for Nov 2020 without any insurance requirement. They have looked into the insurance coverage and have received the dreaded expensive quotes for useless coverage. Do they have any recourse, if so what should they do to resolve this? Go to their local Immigration Office, or do they have to go back to Don Mueng airport to get this resolved?

[LivinLOS]

1 hour ago, Thaidream said:

Sorry, cannot agree.   People in good faith post their experience, take the time to do us all a favor by reporting and then are asked to prove it as if they are automatically considered trolls and liars.   If that were an actual rule- no one would both reporting and we would all be in the dark.

 

If you won't want to believe it - don't but I will  as the majority of people are honest.

 

People are honest, but we see all the time that people are not correct.. They talk about permissions of stay as visas.. They talk about all retirement visas as OAs.. They get things wrong constantly. 

I agree most people are trying to be honest, but when its an outlier, its worth establishing if what they are claiming is correct. Only take a minute with a phone after all.  

[JetsetBkk]

My 85 year old friend has been here on extensions for over 20 years and he's had enough - he's going back to his home country.

 

[LivinLOS]

9 minutes ago, AJ5358 said:

We have friends that were in Thailand on OA'a issued in April of 2019. They decided to travel outside of the country just before Oct 31. When they returned on Nov 3, they were some of the unlucky travelers who were told at Don Mueng Airport that they needed to apply for insurance, leave the country and return to Thailand in order to receive their new 12 month stamp for Nov 2020. However, since then others have arrived in Thailand and have been given there 12 month stamp for Nov 2020 without any insurance requirement. They have looked into the insurance coverage and have received the dreaded expensive quotes for useless coverage. Do they have any recourse, if so what should they do to resolve this? Go to their local Immigration Office, or do they have to go back to Don Mueng airport to get this resolved?

We dont know which of the outcomes is considered correct yet.. A little more time might allow that to be determined. 

Will be very interested in the outcome for these folks. 

[Thaidream]

1 hour ago, saengd said:

Is that written somewhere, if so where, please, I thought the O-X project was a pilot for this? Because if it is indeed just a pilot the future may be less certain than I think it is currently. One of the concerns must be, apart from the humanitarian aspect, is the potential for capital outflows as farangs return home (if that's what some will do). Whilst the cumulative 800k baht deposits of say 100,000 farangs isn't big money in the overall picture of things, a goodly slice of that being repatriated may cause them to stop and think.

Source: https://www.nationthailand.com/news/30377292

 

IMO their project is going badly; poorly constructed; poorly executed and chaotic. Let's hope wiser minds prevail.

 

If the O-X was also a pilot it was a failure. I have heard of only one forum member that has it.

Edited November 10, 2019 by Thaidream

[Max69xl]

30 minutes ago, AJ5358 said:

We have friends that were in Thailand on OA'a issued in April of 2019. They decided to travel outside of the country just before Oct 31. When they returned on Nov 3, they were some of the unlucky travelers who were told at Don Mueng Airport that they needed to apply for insurance, leave the country and return to Thailand in order to receive their new 12 month stamp for Nov 2020. However, since then others have arrived in Thailand and have been given there 12 month stamp for Nov 2020 without any insurance requirement. They have looked into the insurance coverage and have received the dreaded expensive quotes for useless coverage. Do they have any recourse, if so what should they do to resolve this? Go to their local Immigration Office, or do they have to go back to Don Mueng airport to get this resolved?

"They have looked into the insurance coverage"

Who are they? The ones that arrived without any problem? If they weren't denied entry and got their 12 months stamp, then everything is ok. 

[Peter Denis]

15 minutes ago, brianj1964 said:

..., my O-A is brand new so would have to wait 12 months to ditch it for an O, ...

You are correct.

For those who have a recently issued OA Visa with a Visa validity expiry date still months in the future, applying for a Non Imm O (or any other Visa for that matter) would not be possible until their Visa has actually expired.

And you cannot bridge multiple months on Visa exempts.

So indeed, if it turns out that health-insurance is required for EVERYBODY entering on an OA Visa (no matter when issued), the only solution to stay in Thailand for those late OA Visa expiry holders would be to buy approved health-insurance.  My own original OA Visa expires June 26, 2020, so I am in the same boat.

However, there is hope that border immigration had it wrong and should have stamped in the pre Oct 31 issued OA Visa holders in for the full year they are entitled to without the need for health-insurance.  Already several reports from OA Visa holders without health-insurance being stamped in for the full year.

Fingers crossed!

[pookondee]

1 hour ago, Thaidream said:

Sorry, cannot agree.   People in good faith post their experience, take the time to do us all a favor by reporting and then are asked to prove it as if they are automatically considered trolls and liars.   If that were an actual rule- no one would both reporting and we would all be in the dark.

 

If you won't want to believe it - don't but I will  as the majority of people are honest.

 

With respect, If you are a long term Thaivisa reader, you can understand what he is getting at.

 

We read here many times how people are getting thrown in detention at the airport and sent straight back home...

 

And of course that evokes absolute panic,

BUT usually these people conveniently leave out a crucial part of the puzzle as to why it happened.

 

As the guy said, he is not doubting the poster, but after getting caught out and getting unnecessarily panicked over trolls, understandably, people tend to appreciate something solid they can rely on.

 

 

[Thaidream]

39 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

hat assumes that 1) they care or 2) its not the goal.. 

They don't and it is their goal but when they keep getting diplomatic notes from Embassies they may rethink the program and how to implement it.

 

The solution is really quite easy- anyone who has an O-A prior to 31 October 2019 is grandfathered for entry/rentry or extension.   To be blunt- eventually these people will leave on their  own volition or reach life's end.  

 

In the interim they should be using the Thai Insurance Commission to force  Thai insurance companies to develop policies based upon the total population not placing foreigners in a separate group causing high rates and uninsurability.

 

They should also allow the buy in to the Thai Social Security Scheme which would be fairly priced and many foreigners would automatically want to become part of that scheme which would raise money for the system.