Clarification of insurance and extensions since 31/10.

[sometimewoodworker]

6 minutes ago, vivananahuahin said:

https://lepetitjournal.com/bangkok/visa-non-oa-et-assurance-sante-les-assurances-francaises-acceptees-268656,interesting to read something move.sorry in french language

All that says is that a French insurance is accepted, with the certificate, when applying for an OA visa (I assume in French Territory) that is neither surprising or news as the police order specifically permitted that already.

[sometimewoodworker]

4 hours ago, BobBKK said:

Correct but the vernacular is 'retirement visa' but as you say technically it's an extension.

I can call my glass of vodka “water”, the vernacular of many Russians I think, but even though there is a large percentage of water in it and at one time it was water it is not now. 

 

So whatever people call it, it is not now a visa.
 

On a side note  if I drink enough “water” and drive a car the RTP will not accept that all I drank was water whatever I say. ???? 

 

 

[sometimewoodworker]

4 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

There still appears to be a big discrepancy between what new rules and what is actually happening. 

 

HAS ANYONE HAD FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE OF THEIR EXTENSION DENIED OR NEEDED TO GET INSURANCE TO GET THEIR EXTENSION ????

 

Or alternatively, have you recently done an extension with no problems.

A lack of reporting does not equal a discrepancy. 
 

what discrepancy are you talking about? There were reports of IOs requiring insurance form OA visa holders for the first couple of days but that seems to have stopped.
 

I agree that reports will be helpful.

Edited November 15, 2019 by sometimewoodworker

[Peter Denis]

27 minutes ago, vivananahuahin said:

https://lepetitjournal.com/bangkok/visa-non-oa-et-assurance-sante-les-assurances-francaises-acceptees-268656,interesting to read something move.sorry in french language

 

16 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

All that says is that a French insurance is accepted, with the certificate, when applying for an OA visa (I assume in French Territory) that is neither surprising or news as the police order specifically permitted that already.

Although the information is not new (we know that when applying for an OA foreign health-insurance is accepted when the insurer provides the signed/filled-in certificate), it is interesting to know that at diplomatic levels both the French and American embassies in Thailand are aware of the anxiety this new requirement is creating, and are taking steps to at least discuss it with thai authorities. 

[Peter Denis]

30 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

While many of your comments and observations are correct, this one is not. All you need to do is the math. 
 

At day 16 it is 4.8% of the available time for extensions.

There is a small subset of the people who get extensions who read Thaivisa.

Of the small subset who read ThaiVisa there is a small percentage who post.

Of the subset of people who post there is a percentage who are extending for marriage, one who are extending from a Non-O and the probably small number who are extending from a Non-OA.

 

So although you would like to know isn’t surprising that there has only been a single firsthand report.

I did the math and respectfully disagree.

A conservative estimation is that there are at least 10.000 OA Visa holders in Thailand.

In course of coming 12 months the large majority might be confronted with this new health-insurance requirement when they go for their extension of stay.  That means on average 200 applications per week, and we are already more than 2 weeks after the date the requirement would come in effect.

When discounting in the fact that those who are aware and worried whether it would affect their application, will postpone their application as long as possible, there must have been at least 300 OA applications over the last 2 weeks.

So, I guess, the fact that it is surprisingly quiet, must be actually good news.  Because those being denied for the health-insurance issue would for sure go look for help on how to deal with it, and TV Forum would normally be a source to consult.

Or are there - as you suggest - really so little TV Forum members of those that are affected by this new health-insurance requirement, that it's logical that no reports are being posted.

 

[Sheryl]

50 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

All that says is that a French insurance is accepted, with the certificate, when applying for an OA visa (I assume in French Territory) that is neither surprising or news as the police order specifically permitted that already.

 

bigger questions are:

 

1. Will French insurers sign this Certificate required by TI?

 

2. Is the French government doing anything to urge the Thai government to allow holders of French policies to use them for subsequent entries and extensions?

 

[Sheryl]

38 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

 

.... There were reports of IOs requiring insurance form OA visa holders for the first couple of days but that seems to have stopped.

Seems to have stopped for people with visas issued prior to the effective date. We haven't heard much yet from people with visas issued post the 31st in terms of what they had to show the Embassy or Consulate to get the visa and what their experience was at the entry point.  (I suspevct a whioel lot fewer OAs being issued nowadays!)

 

I have heard from one member who was able to get Vancouver Consulate to accept his insurance policy (without the famous TI "certificate") and they made a notation right on his visa. So there is hope for those who have a foreign policy that meets criteria but can't get the insurer to sign that %^^$ certificate. They need to tell the Embassy/Consulate the problem and keep bugging them, if enough do most Embassies & Consulates will I think start accepting insurance documents in lieu of the "certificate". 

 

This does not of course solve the problem for subsequent years, unless one returns home and repeats the process i.e. uses each OA for one year only.

[sometimewoodworker]

45 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

I have heard from one member who was able to get Vancouver Consulate to accept his insurance policy (without the famous TI "certificate") and they made a notation right on his visa. So there is hope for those who have a foreign policy that meets criteria but can't get the insurer to sign that %^^$ certificate. They need to tell the Embassy/Consulate the problem and keep bugging them, if enough do most Embassies & Consulates will I think start accepting insurance documents in lieu of the "certificate". 

There is still the question of if that insurance will be accepted by the IO on entry without the easy to understand certificate.

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, Peter Denis said:

A conservative estimation is that there are at least 10.000 OA Visa holders in Thailand.

Where did you find that number? 
 

While there could be statistics published I haven’t seen any reference to them, or do you have access to internal immigration information?

Edited November 15, 2019 by sometimewoodworker

[Sheryl]

6 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

There is still the question of if that insurance will be accepted by the IO on entry without the easy to understand certificate.

According to both police order and instruction memo for IOs they are supposed to go by the visa notation.

 

Would be nice to hear from peiple who have entered under the new system but (1) it is early days yet and (2) I suspect there has been a precipitous decline in people applying for OAs post Oct 31st.

[Peter Denis]

6 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Where did you find that number?

while there could be statistics I haven’t seen any reference to them.

Hi,

You catched me there!

I based it on the numbers provided in the Thailand Migration Report 2019.

It states that in 2018 there were 72,969 non-thais residing in Thailand on retirement.

So my conservative assumption was that at least 10.000 of that population would be here on an OA-retirement.

Probably not correct, but doesn't matter even if I am wrong a factor 2-3 in either direction, for the point that I wanted to make.

 

[sometimewoodworker]

38 minutes ago, Peter Denis said:

Hi,

You catched me there!

I based it on the numbers provided in the Thailand Migration Report 2019.

It states that in 2018 there were 72,969 non-thais residing in Thailand on retirement.

So my conservative assumption was that at least 10.000 of that population would be here on an OA-retirement.

Probably not correct, but doesn't matter even if I am wrong a factor 2-3 in either direction, for the point that I wanted to make.

 

So a complete assumption! ???? 
 

Considering the higher expense involved and more onerous requirements for the OA I would not be surprised to find the percentage considerably lower. But without actual numbers it’s pointless to guess. 

 

 There is also the point that some/most/many number of people go in at the easiest possible date so they are not under pressure to go in yet. But again speculation.

[nrasmussen]

9 hours ago, BobBKK said:

I said after I got the Non-O I get stamped in and out for 10 years. Others tried to suggest I did not have a Non-O.

It seems to be obvious that several posters here didn't understand you and that's why they responded as they did.

 

With all due respect, you may think that it is just semantics or pedantry, but this is a prime example of why it is crucial to use the correct terminology.

[ThaiBob]

I first came to Thailand last century but in 2011 I came on a tourist visa, did a conversion to a Non-O in one day at Jomtien for one year. Doing annual extensions since then. All my friends (10 I can think of offhand) had Non O-A visas except for one that had a non-B. The 10,000 figure mentioned seems reasonable if not conservative. 

[Raphael54]

Yes, rejection of extension of stay, 3 days ago on Tuesday 12 November 2019, Nonthaburi immigration office.

 

First hand experience of Extension of Stay for Non-Immigrant O-A was rejected at the Nonthaburi immigration office because the insurance that the applicant has is a foreign insurance from Allianz.  The Allianz policy has vastly greater coverage (1 million USD instead of 400,000 THB) but it was rejected on the grounds that it was not a local Thai company.

 

The implementation of this otherwise reasonable idea is greatly messed-up.  In pre-announcements it was always and everywhere confirmed that foreign health insurance policies would be acceptable as long as they met the minimum requirements of 400,000 THB (in-patient) and 40,000 THB (out-patient). 

 

But when the regulation came out (see attachment), it clearly states "(6) Only for an alien, who has been granted Non-Immigrant Visa Class O-A, must buy a Thai health insurance online which covers the length of stay in the Kingdom with no less than 40,000 baht coverage for outpatient treatment and no less than 400,000 baht for inpatient, via the website longstay.tgia.org".  

 

The Nonthaburi immigration office was apologetic and friendly and encouraged me to make a photo of the regulation (see attachment), because they also cannot really help it that the regulation came out as it did.  Their recommendation was to change-over from Non-Immigrant O-A to Non-Immigrant O. 

 

[Peter Denis]

1 hour ago, Raphael54 said:

Yes, rejection of extension of stay, 3 days ago on Tuesday 12 November 2019, Nonthaburi immigration office.

First hand experience of Extension of Stay for Non-Immigrant O-A was rejected at the Nonthaburi immigration office because the insurance that the applicant has is a foreign insurance from Allianz.  The Allianz policy has vastly greater coverage (1 million USD instead of 400,000 THB) but it was rejected on the grounds that it was not a local Thai company.

Sad for the OA holder that his application for OA extension of stay was turned down for the thai-approved health insurance requirement!

But thanks for posting and providing the full detail.

And so - as far as I know - this is the 1st first-hand report of an OA extension denial for reason of not meeting the health-insurance requirement.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Peter Denis

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 hour ago, Raphael54 said:

Yes, rejection of extension of stay, 3 days ago on Tuesday 12 November 2019, Nonthaburi immigration office.

 

If you were applying for a NEW O-A at a Thai embassy or consulate in your home country, you MIGHT be able to use your Allianz policy -- IF you could get someone at that insurer to sign the MoPH "Foreign Insurance Certificate" and then present that to the Embassy/Consulate.

 

But, that would only cover you for a year or two, and then you'd have to repeat the process again at the Embassy/Consulate. Because, as things stand right now, it appears than ANY retirement extension of stay based on an O-A visa is going to draw the insurance requirement.

 

But as noted, there's also the alternative to switch to an O visa that does not currently require health insurance, either re the visa itself or any extensions of stay from it....

 

I don't suppose you asked Nonthaburi Immigration if they'd be willing to switch you to an O visa right there at Immigration? Or they want you to leave the country, get a new O visa outside Thailand, and then re-enter on that visa.

[ubonjoe]

4 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

I don't suppose you asked Nonthaburi Immigration if they'd be willing to switch you to an O visa right there at Immigration?

That is not possible.

The only change that can be done from a tourist or transit visa entry. 

[vivananahuahin]

Ubonjoe,3 years ago,i had a friend who has switch from the immigration office in Hua Hin from NON OA to marriage visa,because the financial requirement was not enough,i think he was on 56.000 b. retirement and he was too late to put some more money(128.000 b.) on his bank account,and for the few days,i think 5 he was on marriage visa.

[david555]

On 11/13/2019 at 8:32 AM, EricTh said:

 

You might want to watch the video below.

 

O-Visa probably won't be issued anymore for retirement purpose in the future to plug the loophole for OA-Visa retiree. You can only get a OA-Visa in the future after a certain date.

 

Those with current O-Visa will be grandfathered and will not need health insurance.

 

You might need to send an email to the lawyer whether you should get a O-Visa as soon as possible or wait until one month later.

 

 

 

Unfortunally  he spoke too many times   " I think..."

…."I think so …."    "I see it like this …"

Nothing factual like he spoke to a high I.O. General or so ….. so  I Think is same as us hoping  in this uncertainty and just easing the unrest , nothing more 

[ukrules]

3 hours ago, Raphael54 said:

The Allianz policy has vastly greater coverage (1 million USD instead of 400,000 THB) but it was rejected on the grounds that it was not a local Thai company.

Scam confirmed. Foreign bad, Thai good ????

 

[Peterw42]

3 hours ago, Raphael54 said:

Yes, rejection of extension of stay, 3 days ago on Tuesday 12 November 2019, Nonthaburi immigration office.

 

First hand experience of Extension of Stay for Non-Immigrant O-A was rejected at the Nonthaburi immigration office because the insurance that the applicant has is a foreign insurance from Allianz.  The Allianz policy has vastly greater coverage (1 million USD instead of 400,000 THB) but it was rejected on the grounds that it was not a local Thai company.

 

The implementation of this otherwise reasonable idea is greatly messed-up.  In pre-announcements it was always and everywhere confirmed that foreign health insurance policies would be acceptable as long as they met the minimum requirements of 400,000 THB (in-patient) and 40,000 THB (out-patient). 

 

But when the regulation came out (see attachment), it clearly states "(6) Only for an alien, who has been granted Non-Immigrant Visa Class O-A, must buy a Thai health insurance online which covers the length of stay in the Kingdom with no less than 40,000 baht coverage for outpatient treatment and no less than 400,000 baht for inpatient, via the website longstay.tgia.org".  

 

The Nonthaburi immigration office was apologetic and friendly and encouraged me to make a photo of the regulation (see attachment), because they also cannot really help it that the regulation came out as it did.  Their recommendation was to change-over from Non-Immigrant O-A to Non-Immigrant O. 

 

OP, so what is your current status, with no extension are you leaving Thailand to get an O visa etc. Did they give you a 7 day extension ? 

 

Just out of interest is this your 1st extension after OA expired ?

[Matzzon]

On 11/10/2019 at 2:39 AM, Peterw42 said:

Just trying to get clarification if there are any first hand reports of people needing insurance for an re-entry permit entry or an extension of stay.

Eeeh? Sorry it´s not possible to clarify that. It´s beyond all comprehension. ????

[Peter Denis]

3 hours ago, Raphael54 said:

Yes, rejection of extension of stay, 3 days ago on Tuesday 12 November 2019, Nonthaburi immigration office.

 

Sad, and really feel for you!

Suggestion > Nonthaburi and Bangkok are location-wise relatively close.  Therefore > would it not be possible for you to present your case at CW and ask for their advice/opinion?

Reason for my suggestion is that there was a first-hand report posted of an APPROVED extension of stay based on an original OA - retirement Visa WITHOUT health-insurance at CW.

That CW report and your report are at present afaik the ONLY two first-hand reports and they have a different outcome, so one of them is not correct. 

Or alternatively, the health-insurance requirement is enforced differently in both locations (which might prompt you to temporarily re-locate to Bangkok and apply for your extension at CW).

Just thinking out loud... 

[saiber]

42 minutes ago, Peter Denis said:

Sad, and really feel for you!

Suggestion > Nonthaburi and Bangkok are location-wise relatively close.  Therefore > would it not be possible for you to present your case at CW and ask for their advice/opinion?

Reason for my suggestion is that there was a first-hand report posted of an APPROVED extension of stay based on an original OA - retirement Visa WITHOUT health-insurance at CW.

That CW report and your report are at present afaik the ONLY two first-hand reports and they have a different outcome, so one of them is not correct. 

Or alternatively, the health-insurance requirement is enforced differently in both locations (which might prompt you to temporarily re-locate to Bangkok and apply for your extension at CW).

Just thinking out loud... 

So whats about that certificate shown on longstay.tgia.org ? Would they accept Allianz insurance if they sign that cert ?!

[EricTh]

3 hours ago, Peter Denis said:

as far as I know - this is the 1st first-hand report of an OA extension denial for reason of not meeting the health-insurance requirement.

This seems to be 1st first hand-account that is rejected based on OA, others are 'I heard from friends'.

Edited November 15, 2019 by EricTh

[Exploring Thailand]

6 hours ago, Raphael54 said:

In pre-announcements it was always and everywhere confirmed that foreign health insurance policies would be acceptable as long as they met the minimum requirements of 400,000 THB (in-patient) and 40,000 THB (out-patient). 

Could you share which pre-announcements you're referring to? Do you have any links? Cheers.

[sometimewoodworker]

4 hours ago, vivananahuahin said:

Ubonjoe,3 years ago,i had a friend who has switch from the immigration office in Hua Hin from NON OA to marriage visa,because the financial requirement was not enough,i think he was on 56.000 b. retirement and he was too late to put some more money(128.000 b.) on his bank account,and for the few days,i think 5 he was on marriage visa.

No he did not.

The immigration department of the Royal Thai Police do not (except in 2 specific cases) issues visas, and the case you outlined is not one of them.

 

He changed the reason for his extension of stay. The immigration officers (RTP) issue permission to stay and extensions of permission to stay (it isn't a visa)
 

changing the reason for an extension is a normal procedure.

 

if he is on his 5 marriage visa then he has been leaving Thailand to get them.

 

Visas can never be extended. You always have to get a new visa.

Edited November 15, 2019 by sometimewoodworker

[sometimewoodworker]

5 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

That is not possible.

The only change that can be done from a tourist or transit visa entry. 

Is it not also possible from a visa exempt entry? Maybe even a visa on arrival (if from a country that needs that)

[bangkokbanjo]

I am arriving in about 5 days on an OA visa I got before Oct 31.  I'll let you know how it goes at immigration.   To be safe , I got insurance and also got the required certificate signed.   

 

On a different note, I keep reading about using an O visa instead of OA.   My understanding was you can only get an O visa is you are visiting family or are married to a Thai.  Can someone clarify this Visa for me

 

Thanks