Clarification of insurance and extensions since 31/10.

[LivinLOS]

3 hours ago, Thaidream said:

Hang in there-  I have a feeling when the dust settles; the complaints go into the Foreign Ministry and  western embassies send diplomatic notes- all of a sudden the grandfathering of O-A Visa holders will occur.

Yeah theres such a track record of that kind of thing happening.. 

[Jingthing]

3 hours ago, Thaidream said:

Hang in there-  I have a feeling when the dust settles; the complaints go into the Foreign Ministry and  western embassies send diplomatic notes- all of a sudden the grandfathering of O-A Visa holders will occur.

 

Since you will be doing your extension in Jomtien- there are other ways to get it done which I am sure you are aware already.

 

To be quite honest, I , also am getting real tired  of constant changes, uncertainty and just plain the constant targetting of the expat community. 

The Thai insurance companies would be very disappointed if that happens. So who wins? Foreigners or Thai financial interests? Hmmm. 

[Thaidream]

7 hours ago, Jingthing said:

The Thai insurance companies would be very disappointed if that happens. So who wins? Foreigners or Thai financial interests? Hmmm. 

One can always hope.  My main irritation is we never have any advocate who can sit down with those in power and attempt to lobby for our position.

[Thaidream]

7 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

Yeah theres such a track record of that kind of thing happening

There is always hope. 

[jacko45k]

20 hours ago, Thaidream said:

There is no way these people can obtain any insurance presented by the authorities on the long stay website.  Making this rule apply to these people is cruel, unfealing and just plain wrong.

But aren't we being overly dramatic here?

Such people need only leave Thailand without a -Re-Entry permit to kill off that problematic O-A started, Permission Of Stay, that has been extended based on retirement. The process of then converting a Visa Exempt Entry is not overly difficult, nor expensive, and then Extensions, not obligating insurance, can then be obtained. 

[EricTh]

13 hours ago, Suradit69 said:

One would have hoped they'd have made an exception for those who made their last O-A entry more than 10 years ago as many of us did.

 

Anyway I'm doing my renewal next month so maybe I'll get it without a problem and I can turn my attention to worrying about next year.

 

You might want to watch the video below.

 

O-Visa probably won't be issued anymore for retirement purpose in the future to plug the loophole for OA-Visa retiree. You can only get a OA-Visa in the future after a certain date.

 

Those with current O-Visa will be grandfathered and will not need health insurance.

 

You might need to send an email to the lawyer whether you should get a O-Visa as soon as possible or wait until one month later.

 

 

 

Edited November 13, 2019 by EricTh

[jackdd]

1 minute ago, EricTh said:

You might want to watch the video below.

 

O-Visa probably won't be issued anymore for retirement visas in the future to plug the loophole for OA-Visa retiree.

 

Those with current O-Visa will be grandfathered and will not need health insurance.

 

You might need to send an email to the lawyer whether you should get a O-Visa as soon as possible or wait until one month later.

The guy in the video is just guessing about what might happen, he can't give any precise advise

[EricTh]

1 hour ago, jacko45k said:

But aren't we being overly dramatic here?

Such people need only leave Thailand without a -Re-Entry permit to kill off that problematic O-A started, Permission Of Stay, that has been extended based on retirement. The process of then converting a Visa Exempt Entry is not overly difficult, nor expensive, and then Extensions, not obligating insurance, can then be obtained. 

You might want to watch the video I posted above on latest development.

 

Yes, O-A can be killed off quite easily but getting a O visa for retirement purpose is going to be difficult in the future. I imagine they are trying to plug the loophole.

 

Current O- visa holders will be exempted though.

Edited November 13, 2019 by EricTh

[EricTh]

8 minutes ago, jackdd said:

The guy in the video is just guessing about what might happen, he can't give any precise advise

The law has not been set yet so everyone is guessing but he is a lawyer and he seems to have checked with the embassies and Thai immigration with the most possible future outcome.

 

What he says is reasonable because it just doesn't make sense to impose health insurance on OA visa and everyone just change to O visa to avoid the insurance. Then who would bother to apply for OA visa in the future for retirement purpose?

 

I think immigration is trying to plug the loophole but the law hasn't been set yet because it needs time to be passed.

Edited November 13, 2019 by EricTh

[jacko45k]

9 minutes ago, EricTh said:

You might want to watch the video I posted above on latest development.

 

Yes, O-A can be killed off quite easily but getting a O visa for retirement purpose is going to be difficult. I imagine they are trying to plug the loophole.

 

Current O- visa holders will be exempted though.

I see speculation more than latest development... 

If what he claims is happening, the ability to convert a TV or Visa Exempt Entry into that of an Non-Imm-O Entry, as a precursor to pursuance of a Retirement Extension, would have to be eliminated. He really does not go into this... and it is a very well used path to living and retiring here. 

 

I may well be 'grandfathered' having a Non-Imm-O starting point. That is until I either forget a Re-Entry permit one day, or even go below 400,000 in the bank for a day. 

[EricTh]

10 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

I see speculation more than latest development... 

If what he claims is happening, the ability to convert a TV or Visa Exempt Entry into that of an Non-Imm-O Entry, as a precursor to pursuance of a Retirement Extension, would have to be eliminated. He really does not go into this... and it is a very well used path to living and retiring here. 

 

 

Correct me if I am wrong but I thought non-imm O is only issued for a certain purpose. Yes, you can convert from tourist visa to Non-imm O based on a certain reason eg. marriage, retirement.

 

What that lawyer is saying is that the Non-imm O visa will probably not be issued based on retirement purpose anymore.

 

When you try to extend the non-imm O after 3 months for purpose of retirement in the future, they will reject it because you need to get non-imm OA instead. That is what I understood.

Edited November 13, 2019 by EricTh

[Thaidream]

1 hour ago, jacko45k said:

But aren't we being overly dramatic here?

Such people need only leave Thailand without a -Re-Entry permit to kill off that problematic O-A started, Permission Of Stay, that has been extended based on retirement. The process of then converting a Visa Exempt Entry is not overly difficult, nor expensive, and then Extensions, not obligating insurance, can then be obtained. 

Overly dramatic?  A person comes to Thailand 20 years ago when they were 60 with an O-A now they are 80 and are told they need an insurance policy which no one will sell them and it has to be from Thailand.  Their peace and comfort are now ruined .

 

Some elderly people have trouble travelling but now somehow they have to find a Thai Consulate who will issue a Non O based upon retirement.  Why should they be forced to do this. They lived in peace for 20 years with a proper Visa and extension.

 

Whoever dreamed up this scam without any grandfathering is ineed cruel, unfeeling and worse.  

[jacko45k]

7 minutes ago, EricTh said:

When you try to extend the non-imm O after 3 months for purpose of retirement, they will reject it because you need to get non-imm OA instead. That is what I understood.

 

 

That does not make sense, the conversion to a Non-Imm-O Entry, in country, is for the very purpose of seeking a retirement extension later. There would be no reason nor basis to issues it. If that were to happen, I would be in agreement. 

Edited November 13, 2019 by jacko45k
typo

[jacko45k]

2 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Overly dramatic? 

I agree an elderly person may have difficulty, but I only see a need to travel out and back into Thailand on a Visa Exempt, no obligation to visit an Embassy or consulate. 

[EricTh]

11 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

That does not make sense, the conversion to a Non-Imm-O Entry, in country, is for the very purpose of seeking a retirement extension later. There would be no reason nor basis to issues it. If that were to happen, I would be be in agreement. 

The video said that non-Imm O can be issued for a variety of reasons such as marriage or guardian and not just on retirement.

 

The problem now is that there are two types of visas based on retirement which is confusing to many people. They might restrict to just one type of visa in the future.

Edited November 13, 2019 by EricTh

[jacko45k]

22 minutes ago, EricTh said:

The video said that non-Imm O can be issued for a variety of reasons such as marriage and not just on retirement.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am discussing one obtained in country! 

When they stop issuing them based on retirement, and an order is issued saying they cannot be issued for retirement extension purposes, I would have a change of heart. 

 

Actually, in the past, retirement extensions have been issued on Non-Imm-Os, that were actually issued for completely different purposes.... (i.e. not retirement).  There is no written rule preventing this.

Edited November 13, 2019 by jacko45k

[Suradit69]

I'm glad I sold my condo at the beginning of the year. Something tells me the number of units coming on the market will rise significantly and the number of foreigners willing to buy will fall ... Probably the number of Thai buyers will shrink too if they want to see where prices settle.

 

i will probably buy insurance for one year or pay for "assistance" in processing my renewal so I will have time to see how this plays out, but whatever happens there will be zero confidence in terms of what will come in future.

 

Maybe if real estate market takes a hit, that might bring some pressure to modify the interpretation and application of the regulations. 

 

I would think it reasonable for people who entered the country years ago to be held to the rules that existed at the time they entered. But reasonable may be interpreted differently by the powers that be.

[GeorgeCross]

19 minutes ago, Suradit69 said:

I would think it reasonable for people who entered the country years ago to be held to the rules that existed at the time they entered. But reasonable may be interpreted differently by the powers that be.

 

reasonable from our perspective yes but from theirs they'll probably say your extension of stay is less than 12 months old and expires soon.

 

in order to extend again you will have to re-qualify the same as every year

 

last year financials, this year insurance, next year who knows what

 

ain't life grand on temporary stay ????

 

 

 

Edited November 13, 2019 by GeorgeCross

[Suradit69]

3 hours ago, EricTh said:

 

O-Visa probably won't be issued anymore for retirement purpose in the future to plug the loophole for OA-Visa retiree. You can only get a OA-Visa in the future after a certain date.

I'd be reluctant to leave the country without a re-entry permit in order to kill my current extension.

 

Getting an O based on retirement wouldn't be a sure thing and returning to Thailand on some other basis may not garner an O visa conversion. Even if either is possible, O visa entries after 10/31 may not be grandfathered and/or the existence of an old O-A entry may be the determining issue for renewals.

 

Really a mess made even worse by all the speculation. I still think O-As shoulde be grandfathered to the conditions that applied when they first entered.  

[LivinLOS]

3 hours ago, EricTh said:

The law has not been set yet so everyone is guessing but he is a lawyer and he seems to have checked with the embassies and Thai immigration with the most possible future outcome.

 

What he says is reasonable because it just doesn't make sense to impose health insurance on OA visa and everyone just change to O visa to avoid the insurance. Then who would bother to apply for OA visa in the future for retirement purpose?

 

I think immigration is trying to plug the loophole but the law hasn't been set yet because it needs time to be passed.

The laws are all set, published and have been discussed and dissected for months.. Where have you been. 

This 'lawyer' has consistently been incorrect in his guesses at how it would be implemented, so far from an accurate source who has checked with embassies and immigration its just a guy guessing, who has been wrong multiple times so far. 

[LivinLOS]

3 hours ago, Thaidream said:

Overly dramatic?  A person comes to Thailand 20 years ago when they were 60 with an O-A now they are 80 and are told they need an insurance policy which no one will sell them and it has to be from Thailand.  Their peace and comfort are now ruined .

 

Some elderly people have trouble travelling but now somehow they have to find a Thai Consulate who will issue a Non O based upon retirement.  Why should they be forced to do this. They lived in peace for 20 years with a proper Visa and extension.

 

Whoever dreamed up this scam without any grandfathering is ineed cruel, unfeeling and worse.  

People need to understand precisely how fragile an annual review of thier permission of stay truly is. 

If your too weak, and have no support network to travel to obtain a new visa, you shouldnt be here !! This isnt the place for that level of dependency, its not the west, fairness doesnt come into it, its the developing world, with coups, currency issues, corruption and risk. Its not for the frail and infirm. 

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

The laws are all set, published and have been discussed and dissected for months.. Where have you been. 

This 'lawyer' has consistently been incorrect in his guesses at how it would be implemented, so far from an accurate source who has checked with embassies and immigration its just a guy guessing, who has been wrong multiple times so far. 

He's been wrong on some big things but right on a big thing as well. Previously he thought by now that the insurance requirement would apply to all on retirement status -- O and O-A based. That was wrong (so far). But he was correct based on reports that people with O-A based extensions (prior to Oct. 31) are facing the requirement. The party line here was that was not going to happen! But it is happening. So give him some credit for that.

[LivinLOS]

38 minutes ago, Suradit69 said:

I'm glad I sold my condo at the beginning of the year. Something tells me the number of units coming on the market will rise significantly and the number of foreigners willing to buy will fall ... Probably the number of Thai buyers will shrink too if they want to see where prices settle.

I was looking at a pretty extravagant build (villa, 5 rai of gardens, etc etc) and this whole thing is making me think there may be a lot of retirement places coming on to the market.. Probably not the higher end but I do see that as an effect I need to watch. 

[LivinLOS]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

He's been wrong on some big things but right on a big thing as well. Previously he thought by now that the insurance requirement would apply to all on retirement status -- O and O-A based. That was wrong (so far). But he was correct based on reports that people with O-A based extensions (prior to Oct. 31) are facing the requirement. The party line here was that was not going to happen! But it is happening. So give him some credit for that.

The party line here was baffling in how anyone could read the order and maintain it didnt say what it so clearly says. I had posts removed and even a thread closed as fake news, for posting exactly what has happened. Why that was the TVF groupthink was baffling to me. 

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

The party line here was baffling in how anyone could read the order and maintain it didnt say what it so clearly says. I had posts removed and even a thread closed as fake news, for posting exactly what has happened. Why that was the TVF groupthink was baffling to me. 

I don't get where you're coming from. Sorry what's so clear to you was not so clear to almost everyone else. If you're such a visa God that can predict every enforcement detail that might flow from major visa rule changes maybe start your own youtube channel. 

 

Anyway a big question now is as changing to an O based visa/extension rather than O-A is seen by both expats and immigration as a "loophole" (see Phuket News item) will there soon be a crackdown on people getting:

 

New 90 day O visas based on retirement, in or out of Thailand

 

and/or

 

Enforcement policy change about allowing INITIAL retirement extensions based on NEW 90 day O visas.

 

Yes, this is speculation at this point. I don't know. You think you know. I am not invested in being right or wrong either way. Just want to see how this develops. 

Edited November 13, 2019 by Jingthing

[LivinLOS]

Just now, Jingthing said:

I don't get where you're coming from. Sorry what's so clear to you was not so clear to almost everyone else. If you're such a visa God that can predict every enforcement detail that might flow from major visa rule changes maybe start your own youtube channel. 

Sorry.. This IS obvious.. Things often get haphazard enforcement, but I cannot understand how this can be read with such certainty that it would do the opposite of what it is saying. 

 

 

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, LivinLOS said:

Sorry.. This IS obvious.. Things often get haphazard enforcement, but I cannot understand how this can be read with such certainty that it would do the opposite of what it is saying. 

 

 

You said the magic word, dude.

ENFORCEMENT.

 

[Thaidream]

1 hour ago, LivinLOS said:

eople need to understand precisely how fragile an annual review of thier permission of stay truly is. 

If your too weak, and have no support network to travel to obtain a new visa, you shouldnt be here !! This isnt the place for that level of dependency, its not the west, fairness doesnt come into it, its the developing world, with coups, currency issues, corruption and risk. Its not for the frail and infirm.

Really-  then why do Thais advertise as part of their culture, their love and care for the elderly?  Why are there thousands of elderly foreigners living in areas where there are nursing homes(Chiang Mai)  that have been advertised internationally for decades, especially to the Japanese and Europeans as well as the Middle East.

 

In fact, the O-X Visa was developed to encourage elderly foreigners who have medical issues to settle in Thailand that is why the income requirements and insurance have been requirements from the start..  If this place is not for the inform or weak, why did they develop this Visa especially for these people?

 

Thailand can't have itr both ways- you stick to your past committments because if you don't not only will retirees who have plenty of money give Thailand a pass, so will investors and all types of people that Thailand needs.  No responsible person does business with a country that cannot honor it's commitments and treat people with fairness and dignity.

 

As far as the lawyer is concerneed- he is spot on this time.  He said all O- Visas are grandfathered which is correct.  He stated that the ability to get an O Visa for the purpose of retirement will gradually become more restricted.  As of now you cannot get an O Visa for retirement purposes anywhere in the USA.   IMO this will spread across  the World since the powers that be want all retirees on an O-A or O-X.

 

IMO- the key to all this is now to grandfather everyone on an O-A issued prior to 31 October 2019/ If they do that- all the rest will move smoothly, otherwise they are going to  have bad press; bad relations with other countries and  many people will give Thailand a pass

.  With the 

use of Social Media and the ever prying international media- Thailand will be seen unfairably.

 

[EricTh]

2 hours ago, Suradit69 said:

 

Really a mess made even worse by all the speculation. I still think O-As shoulde be grandfathered to the conditions that applied when they first entered.  

What you said is true, the O visa issued after 31 Oct might not be grandfathered. 

 

Unfortunately, O-A visa are most probably not grandfathered as well judging by some of the reports coming into this forum except for one case.

 

So the only choice left is to do an education visa which some people seem to be switching to but that seems to have perils too because most foreigners find Thai language challenging.

[BobBKK]

Am I the only one who is confused by Non-O-A and Non-O with respect to retirement extensions?  I am on a Non-O for 11 years and don't really get why I am on a Non-O and not a Non-O-A. Both get one year retirement extensions right?