Can I challenge an import duty charge?

[pomozki]

hope this is the right place to post this.
I recently bought a second-hand Nespresso coffee maker on eBay for $60 Aussie dollars, about 1,200 baht. (plus a further 800 baht postage)

I've just received notification that the post office will only release it to me on payment of 1,564 baht import duty, saying they had the right to open and inspect any incoming parcel etc etc.

The guy in Sydney says he made it clear on the parcel that it was a second-hand item, with a value of $50, so this sounds ridiculous. Surely they are basing this on it being a new item? How else could they have based this huge charge - or maybe they're right and they are allowed to treat all items as new ?
I'm just asking cos if they're in the right and I have to just suck it up and pay, I'll have to do it but it seems an outrageous rip-off to me.
Cheers

[CharlieH]

Yes you can and the post office can give you the form to complete. They will send it to customs and you'll get a response in around 6 weeks. You can pay it and claim it back that way OR leave it there until there response is received then decide.

If you do go down the form filling route make sure you support it with proof of what you paid and where, to who etc with your form.

(based on my experience)

[JHolmesJr]

Did your seller mark it as 'gift'? That helps...a lot.

Your only hope is to contest and provide the eBay invoice as support.

[Mavideol]

too much trouble, time consuming and money when you could have it here in Thailand, new with warranty from Bon Cafe if you by 2 boxes of coffee they give you free, not free as I am sure it's included on the coffee box price, but no additional money, I did it when purchased 2 boxes of  espresso capsules

[pomozki]

Many thanks to CharlieH and J HolmesJr !
to the other guy: not a helpful reply pal, since I've already bought this one.
Also, I checked the Bon cafe website and they don't even sell Nespresso machines. They only seem to sell Capristta, whoever they are. I had 2 friends recommend buying Nespresso and that's what i wanted. They also have a great reputation. I checked the price of Nespresso machines on Lazada and direct from Nespesso here in Bkk., and also visited their stand at Mega Bangna and they were triple the price or more of what the guy offered to sell his for. He also said it was in perfect condition, so for just 1,200 baht it was an absolute bargain. That's the point of my question - should i have known there'd be a huge charge on top that meant it wasn;t worthwhile? it seems from what the other guys are saying that no, it wasn't justified.
anyway, after hearing what Charlie and JH said, I'll fill out the form. I'll probably pay it anyway rather than wait the 6 weeks but challenge it, nothing to lose I guess!

[CharlieH]

7 minutes ago, pomozki said:

Many thanks to CharlieH and J HolmesJr !
to the other guy: not a helpful reply pal, since I've already bought this one.
Also, I checked the Bon cafe website and they don't even sell Nespresso machines. They only seem to sell Capristta, whoever they are. I had 2 friends recommend buying Nespresso and that's what i wanted. They also have a great reputation. I checked the price of Nespresso machines on Lazada and direct from Nespesso here in Bkk., and also visited their stand at Mega Bangna and they were triple the price or more of what the guy offered to sell his for. He also said it was in perfect condition, so for just 1,200 baht it was an absolute bargain. That's the point of my question - should i have known there'd be a huge charge on top that meant it wasn;t worthwhile? it seems from what the other guys are saying that no, it wasn't justified.
anyway, after hearing what Charlie and JH said, I'll fill out the form. I'll probably pay it anyway rather than wait the 6 weeks but challenge it, nothing to lose I guess!

 

As long as you explain how where why etc, I dont see any reason why the amount wouldnt be refunded or significantly reduced. If you have a copy of the ebay ad/transaction etc even better. Best of luck.

[Just Weird]

36 minutes ago, JHolmesJr said:

Did your seller mark it as 'gift'? That helps...a lot.

Your only hope is to contest and provide the eBay invoice as support.

Customs departments worldwide are wise to that "gift" trick! 

 

The invoice may help but it may not as the duty is based on Customs' valuation of the item, not the price paid for it.

Edited December 1, 2019 by Just Weird

[Just Weird]

18 minutes ago, Just Weird said:

Customs departments worldwide are wise to that "gift" trick! 

 

The invoice may help but it may not as the duty is based on Customs' valuation of the item, not the price paid for it.

Edited 13 minutes ago by Just Weird

Observer90210, which part of that did you find confusing?  I'd be happy to explain if it helps.

[CharlieH]

Sorry, post removed. See forum rule 11.

 

[FritsSikkink]

You pay import tax on the value of the item + postage costs

[robblok]

33 minutes ago, Just Weird said:

Customs departments worldwide are wise to that "gift" trick! 

 

The invoice may help but it may not as the duty is based on Customs' valuation of the item, not the price paid for it.

That is the same world wide sometimes you can use the invoice but people can write fake invoices so customs always has the last say.

[JHolmesJr]

Customs may think they're wise to a package marked gift....but how do they 

prove it? As long as it's not sent by a company but an individual, 'gift' is very plausible.

Gifts also don't come with invoices.

 

OP don't file a challenge saying its a gift and then provide an invoice. It might not work.

 

If it wasn't marked 'gift' by the seller, just print a copy of the eBay ad and the invoice and use that

to proceed. Forget the gift angle....go with the used goods angle.

 

 

 

[CharlieH]

It my understanding that a a random selection of mail/parcels etc is selected at random periods throughout the day, once selected, they pay no attention whatsoever to what is written or claimed on the outside of the parcel and make their own assessment according to issued internal guidelines.

 

Bottom line, its totally random, pot luck, and whether or not the individual wants to challenge it.

I would suggest many dont bother and either pay it, or just let it go.

 

 

[pomozki]

7 minutes ago, JHolmesJr said:

OP don't file a challenge saying its a gift and then provide an invoice. It might not work.

haha, I was thinking that when you made the suggestion originally!

it would certainly raise eyebrows - I'm gonna print the eBay invoice and I've asked the seller to verify. i certainly won't also say it's a gift ????

I've checked the charge again - they say it's 1,200 baht + VAT based on their estimated value of the item at 4,000 baht - that's more than 3 times what I paid for it. At that rate I'd still be liable for 360 + VAT. If it works I'll get back around 8-900 baht. worth a go

[Mavideol]

2 hours ago, pomozki said:

Many thanks to CharlieH and J HolmesJr !
to the other guy: not a helpful reply pal, since I've already bought this one.
Also, I checked the Bon cafe website and they don't even sell Nespresso machines. They only seem to sell Capristta, whoever they are. I had 2 friends recommend buying Nespresso and that's what i wanted. They also have a great reputation. I checked the price of Nespresso machines on Lazada and direct from Nespesso here in Bkk., and also visited their stand at Mega Bangna and they were triple the price or more of what the guy offered to sell his for. He also said it was in perfect condition, so for just 1,200 baht it was an absolute bargain. That's the point of my question - should i have known there'd be a huge charge on top that meant it wasn;t worthwhile? it seems from what the other guys are saying that no, it wasn't justified.
anyway, after hearing what Charlie and JH said, I'll fill out the form. I'll probably pay it anyway rather than wait the 6 weeks but challenge it, nothing to lose I guess!

the other guy just give his opinion because he has 2 Caprista machines for the past 4 years working fine.... as for Caprista VS Nespresso it's a matter of opinion as well, same a buying an Apple or a Samsung, BMW, Porche or Mercedes and if and when people give their opinion about a product, be nice and say thank you, even if their opinion is not what you were expecting, enjoy your nespresso

[robblok]

2 hours ago, JHolmesJr said:

Customs may think they're wise to a package marked gift....but how do they 

prove it? As long as it's not sent by a company but an individual, 'gift' is very plausible.

Gifts also don't come with invoices.

 

OP don't file a challenge saying its a gift and then provide an invoice. It might not work.

 

If it wasn't marked 'gift' by the seller, just print a copy of the eBay ad and the invoice and use that

to proceed. Forget the gift angle....go with the used goods angle.

 

 

 

Does not work that way never has, i get cheese send by my parents as a gift it gets taxed. You think tax guys are stupid they are not.

[VocalNeal]

2 hours ago, pomozki said:

based on their estimated value of the item at 4,000 baht

less 800 baht shipping, can you prove it is not worth 3200 baht or $100. It probably looks too new.

Still if you don't want it I'm sure the customs guy does!

[torturedsole]

1 hour ago, Mavideol said:

... enjoy your nespresso

That appears to be on hold for the moment.  ????

 

Anyway, the OP has already stated that he's made a good saving on the price of the machine, that's if it works.  I'm not sure if I could be bothered chasing down the 900 baht if that's the case.

[Don Mega]

4 hours ago, pomozki said:

 He also said it was in perfect condition, so for just 1,200 baht it was an absolute bargain.

 

3 hours ago, pomozki said:

I've checked the charge again - they say it's 1,200 baht + VAT based on their estimated value of the item at 4,000 baht - that's more than 3 times what I paid for it. At that rate I'd still be liable for 360 + VAT. If it works I'll get back around 8-900 baht. worth a go

What you paid and what they value it at are two completely different numbers...

 

If it was not an "absolute bargain" what would a fair price be ?

[473geo]

Before you question the charge, best check there will be no documentation charge for any change/adjustments of customs import entry detail

[Monomial]

5 hours ago, Just Weird said:

Customs departments worldwide are wise to that "gift" trick! 

 

The invoice may help but it may not as the duty is based on Customs' valuation of the item, not the price paid for it.

 

JW is correct. Customs duties are due on the value of the item, not the sales price of the item. For new merchandise, this is normally the same. But if a customs official, in his own estimation, decides the value on the invoice does not represent the true value, he is free to adjust it.

 

You can disagree, and you can try to prove through a preponderance of evidence that the item's value really is reflected in the price on your invoice, but you will need to have more than just your invoice. Perhaps a dcoumented history of similar items selling for similar prices may be required.

 

The OP needs to ask himself who is at fault here. Was the customs official really out of line in making this valuation, or is the OP simply angry he got caught trying to game the system by undervaluing the item on the invoice?  If the former, then definitely try to appeal and bring evidence such as manufacturer's retail price, depreciation formulas and examples of similar sales prices for used items on the web. But if it was the latter, then an appeal will just waste everyone's time.

 

 

[pomozki]

3 hours ago, Mavideol said:

the other guy just give his opinion because he has 2 Caprista machines for the past 4 years working fine.... as for Caprista VS Nespresso it's a matter of opinion as well, same a buying an Apple or a Samsung, BMW, Porche or Mercedes and if and when people give their opinion about a product, be nice and say thank you, even if their opinion is not what you were expecting, enjoy your nespresso

how do you know he's got 2 machines! he's your friend, right? I understand you sticking up for him
"as for Caprista VS Nespresso it's a matter of opinion" - exactly right, so what was the point of him going on about the model be bought!

2 hours ago, VocalNeal said:

less 800 baht shipping, can you prove it is not worth 3200 baht or $100. It probably looks too new.

Still if you don't want it I'm sure the customs guy does!

I have no intention of leaving the machine with them - if I have to cough up the full duty they charged, so be it - it'll still be less than the retail price, just not as good a deal as I thought

1 hour ago, torturedsole said:

That appears to be on hold for the moment.  ????

 

Anyway, the OP has already stated that he's made a good saving on the price of the machine, that's if it works.  I'm not sure if I could be bothered chasing down the 900 baht if that's the case.

I thought that too - but the eBay guy has already emailed me the invoice, I've printed it off and I'll go to the post office around the corner tomorrow. It's a hassle but worth the 900 baht or so imo.

59 minutes ago, Monomial said:

 

The OP needs to ask himself who is at fault here. Was the customs official really out of line in making this valuation, or is the OP simply angry he got caught trying to game the system by undervaluing the item on the invoice?  If the former, then definitely try to appeal and bring evidence such as manufacturer's retail price, depreciation formulas and examples of similar sales prices for used items on the web. But if it was the latter, then an appeal will just waste everyone's time.

no way was I or the eBay guy trying to "game the system". He stated on the package it was second-hand and sold for $60 Aussie dollars. That was 100% true.
Is buying something second-hand much cheaper than new "gaming the system"? of course not!

i'll fill in the form and see what happens. the ideal result would be some tax and a total cost of about 2,300 baht, much cheaper than a new machine with all the extras he threw in
if they insist on the 1,500 baht duty it'll come to about 3,500 baht, still a lot less than new, so just some frustration
thanks to everyone for their replies, If I remember I'll tag on the result when it comes through

[robblok]

1 hour ago, Monomial said:

 

JW is correct. Customs duties are due on the value of the item, not the sales price of the item. For new merchandise, this is normally the same. But if a customs official, in his own estimation, decides the value on the invoice does not represent the true value, he is free to adjust it.

 

You can disagree, and you can try to prove through a preponderance of evidence that the item's value really is reflected in the price on your invoice, but you will need to have more than just your invoice. Perhaps a dcoumented history of similar items selling for similar prices may be required.

 

The OP needs to ask himself who is at fault here. Was the customs official really out of line in making this valuation, or is the OP simply angry he got caught trying to game the system by undervaluing the item on the invoice?  If the former, then definitely try to appeal and bring evidence such as manufacturer's retail price, depreciation formulas and examples of similar sales prices for used items on the web. But if it was the latter, then an appeal will just waste everyone's time.

 

 

I think you put the best explanation of all well done. This is how it works and gift just does not work as its based not on what is paid for the item but what the customs officer values it for. Its up to the client to disprove it, not the customs guy.

[robblok]

1 minute ago, pomozki said:

how do you know he's got 2 machines! he's your friend, right? I understand you sticking up for him
"as for Caprista VS Nespresso it's a matter of opinion" - exactly right, so what was the point of him going on about the model be bought!

I have no intention of leaving the machine with them - if I have to cough up the full duty they charged, so be it - it'll still be less than the retail price, just not as good a deal as I thought

I thought that too - but the eBay guy has already emailed me the invoice, I've printed it off and I'll go to the post office around the corner tomorrow. It's a hassle but worth the 900 baht or so imo.

no way was I or the eBay guy trying to "game the system". He stated on the package it was second-hand and sold for $60 Aussie dollars. That was 100% true.
Is buying something second-hand much cheaper than new "gaming the system"? of course not!

i'll fill in the form and see what happens. the ideal result would be some tax and a total cost of about 2,300 baht, much cheaper than a new machine with all the extras he threw in
if they insist on the 1,500 baht duty it'll come to about 3,500 baht, still a lot less than new, so just some frustration
thanks to everyone for their replies, If I remember I'll tag on the result when it comes through

I hope for you that it works as in your case this is what you paid for it and as second hand it is of course not new value so you got a case. But its up to you to convince the customs guy. But what Momonial says about how to prove it and such is 100 correct info.

[JHolmesJr]

3 hours ago, robblok said:

Does not work that way never has, i get cheese send by my parents as a gift it gets taxed. You think tax guys are stupid they are not.

 

its not my problem if you live in a country where customs people make up their own rules.

Ive sent dozens of eBay packages to buyers in USA, Europe, Oz and never a problem marking as gift and stating value

between $20-$50...of course I have never mailed a coffee maker...and I would never mail anything to Thailand.

[robblok]

2 minutes ago, JHolmesJr said:

 

its not my problem if you live in a country where customs people make up their own rules.

Ive sent dozens of eBay packages to buyers in USA, Europe, Oz and never a problem marking as gift and stating value

between $20-$50...of course I have never mailed a coffee maker...and I would never mail anything to Thailand.

Its not like that mate, you obviously have no idea how customs and taxes work. Gifts are not free of tax never have been never will be. Things can always be taxed. You show me a a law where gifts are free om import taxes and I believe you.

Having said that there are in many countries lower limits on witch there is no tax. Could be your products are below that level and then they will not get taxed. But if a client gets taxed its up to him to counter the customs officer and just gift wont cut it he will have to prove the value of the item. Prove it the way momomial said. That how things work. not how you think things work.

[ukrules]

10 hours ago, VocalNeal said:

less 800 baht shipping

Nope, they always tax the shipping cost, this is standard around the world

[Langsuan Man]

4 hours ago, ukrules said:

Nope, they always tax the shipping cost, this is standard around the world

No double taxing on shipping is NOT the standard around the world because shipping fees are already taxed at the source when the parcel is mailed

 

Only in Thailand is duty charged on shipping because they can and their is nothing you can do about it 

[robblok]

8 minutes ago, Langsuan Man said:

No double taxing on shipping is NOT the standard around the world because shipping fees are already taxed at the source when the parcel is mailed

 

Only in Thailand is duty charged on shipping because they can and their is nothing you can do about it 

Taxing on shipping fees is standard. I know this for a fact. You pay tax on the total amount that is inclusive shipping. Not sure where you get your idea's. I am working with tax on a day to day base and this happens in Netherlands too. Otherwise smart sellers would put huge shipping cost and low product cost and avoid taxes. Does not work like that. 

 

How do you think that shipping fees are taxed at the source can you explain how you think this works. 

[varun]

Often, the declared value of an item on the invoice means <deleted>-all to Somchai.

Customs officials are free to make their own evaluation of shipment value,

if they feel it is not accurately represented.

 

Shipping via DHL / UPS compounds the issue - higher probability that your package will be scrutinized.

 

Just pay the import duty, collect your Nespresso machine and move on.