New requirement to show air ticket at land border

[ovenman]

I haven't been enough of a world traveller to count the countries where I as a Westerner can just walk in with my passport, live there month after month and year after year, without getting some kind of a visa.

Mexico would be one. Cross the border every six months and you are golden.

[PeaceBlondie]

I haven't been enough of a world traveller to count the countries where I as a Westerner can just walk in with my passport, live there month after month and year after year, without getting some kind of a visa.

Mexico would be one. Cross the border every six months and you are golden.

Sometimes. Depends whether you're demonstrating against the government, whether you're bringing a group of human rights observers into Chiapas, or delivering a power generator to the Zapatista command base, etc......I know a guy in one of those categories who was given a 7 day visa!

[ovenman]

I haven't been enough of a world traveller to count the countries where I as a Westerner can just walk in with my passport, live there month after month and year after year, without getting some kind of a visa.

Mexico would be one. Cross the border every six months and you are golden.

Sometimes. Depends whether you're demonstrating against the government, whether you're bringing a group of human rights observers into Chiapas, or delivering a power generator to the Zapatista command base, etc......I know a guy in one of those categories who was given a 7 day visa!

I suppose he could have waded back across the Rio Grande into Mexico.

My only point is that the idea of visa-free living isn't exclusive to Thailand. But that said, even Mexico charges in the neighborhood of twenty dollars for its derecho para no immigrante (DNI non-immigrant fee). This fee is tacked onto the cost of an air ticket, so many travelers are blissfully unaware that they are paying the DNI. No visa for many, yet the gov't still collects money from tourists.

[jinjok]

mexico, surely ez entry/exits. peace blondie - i dont think onne would fare well demo'ing against anyone/thing in thailand either. one thing to have ones say... thailand is not a free nation

I POSSESS A TEN YEAR VISA FOR INDIA. thats fact and thats living. phillipines ez for one year and cambodia as well - even easier.

anyway... most of central america and all of europe as the usa (sure its become a hassle, but you get the 90days sure). per europe - just have to leave every 90 days best of my knowledge. im not against paying for a proper visa, heck i pay b1700 for the visa run. id gladly pay b3000 for a triple 3month non extendable use any time for 12 mos and have to only obtain in ones own country. or two 3month anywhere asia and three visa runs to 90days.

oz is a bit of a stickler from what i hear. i bet canada is super easy for long term stay as well.

also bear in mind this is not a developed country and also bear in mind that thailand has for years encouraged us to do and plan and buy just what it is disallowing now.

you know... if thailand were not such a conduit to its neighbors, entry were open to myanmar and beyond and lao visas were not so expensive - i honestly could care less. but with this move - its just a total hassle.

want to go from cambodia to sumatra? need a ticket onward

want to go from lao to perentians? same

want to go from singpore to vietnam overland - no ticky, no entry

want to fly into bkk, visit friends before moving on to cambodia to LIVe - nope, cant do that.

want to do something really exotic like china entering thailand via chiang sang on mekong - forget it.

want to fly from delhi to bangkok, get rested and dentist? need a ticket to land despite you may not even be able to buy a ticket from bkk-xyz in a thrid country without linking it to the ticket you are flying on. its insanely stupid.

before it was a hassle, but i respect a country to make it s law. now its just a cluster***k for me.

whats missing here is the lazy thai govt in its incompetence and inability to establish good folks from bad. you can easily do this thru visa process. one meeting every few years (tatoos? criminal records? bank statements). you can easily do checks on businesses. trouble is they dont even trust themselves to separate wheat from shaft.

Edited April 5, 2007 by jinjok

[cali4995]

mexico, surely ez entry/exits. peace blondie - i dont think onne would fare well demo'ing against anyone/thing in thailand either. one thing to have ones say... thailand is not a free nation

I POSSESS A TEN YEAR VISA FOR INDIA. thats fact and thats living. phillipines ez for one year and cambodia as well - even easier.

anyway... most of central america and all of europe as the usa (sure its become a hassle, but you get the 90days sure). per europe - just have to leave every 90 days best of my knowledge. im not against paying for a proper visa, heck i pay b1700 for the visa run. id gladly pay b3000 for a triple 3month non extendable use any time for 12 mos and have to only obtain in ones own country. or two 3month anywhere asia and three visa runs to 90days.

oz is a bit of a stickler from what i hear. i bet canada is super easy for long term stay as well.

also bear in mind this is not a developed country and also bear in mind that thailand has for years encouraged us to do and plan and buy just what it is disallowing now.

you know... if thailand were not such a conduit to its neighbors, entry were open to myanmar and beyond and lao visas were not so expensive - i honestly could care less. but with this move - its just a total hassle.

want to go from cambodia to sumatra? need a ticket onward

want to go from lao to perentians? same

want to go from singpore to vietnam overland - no ticky, no entry

want to fly into bkk, visit friends before moving on to cambodia to LIVe - nope, cant do that.

want to do something really exotic like china entering thailand via chiang sang on mekong - forget it.

want to fly from delhi to bangkok, get rested and dentist? need a ticket to land despite you may not even be able to buy a ticket from bkk-xyz in a thrid country without linking it to the ticket you are flying on. its insanely stupid.

before it was a hassle, but i respect a country to make it s law. now its just a cluster***k for me.

whats missing here is the lazy thai govt in its incompetence and inability to establish good folks from bad. you can easily do this thru visa process. one meeting every few years (tatoos? criminal records? bank statements). you can easily do checks on businesses. trouble is they dont even trust themselves to separate wheat from shaft.

it sure would seem to make more sense if they would open-up more options for people under 50. as you said, if they need background checks or proof of financial security that's understandable. these blanket restrictions just seem to be giving the wrong impression. it's also true about what you mention that in some way this is hindering inter-region travel. as important an issue as it is, some of it doesn't seem very well thought through. but then i am in this under 50 well-meaning category who's affected.

Edited April 5, 2007 by cali4995

[ChokChaiChas]

they spent 20-30 years building this huge tourism base with friendly attitudes, making people feel welcome, a fun enjoyable holiday destination with a minimum of hassles. on the present course, it's going to take them about 2-3 years to destroy most of that . it just seems to defy all logical explanation.

My take on this. Genuine tourists are not going to be affected by the changes to the rules. That isn't to say there will not be an isolated instance of an over-zealous immigration officer.

Thailand is encouraging tourism. But a problem they face is the perception in the west that Thailand is populated by low-life expats. This perception is re-inforced in the media. Thailand wants to remove this perception by encouraging those previously abusing the system to leave. They then hope this will have a positive impact on tourist arrivals from the affluent west.

Some have suggested they are throwing out the baby with the bathwater and a lot of decent and/or wealthy expats are voluntarily or unwillingly moving out. Possibly. Certainly many "abusing " the system are decent people who have found themselves doing border runs through force of circumstance. But what they spend is peanuts compared to the potential currency inflow.

The problem has little to do with what potential Western tourists perceive as low-life expats living in Thailand.

Thailand has the reputation of the World's foremost sex-tourism destination and rightly so IMHO.

They are not going to shake that image from the minds of many Westerners easily, if at all.

Nor are they going to be bothered about attracting Western tourists anyway - Asia is the big market.

The problem is in a nutshell that there are too many foreigners living in Thailand in the opinion of many Thais, and more importantly in the opinion of many Thais who make the laws, and probably don't earn great streams of revenue from businesses aimed at foreigners.

Not difficult to appreciate, and there's certainly no secret about the level of xenophobia amongst the majority of Thais.

I agree wholeheartedly with your comment about sex tourism although there is growing competition. Costa Rica has become a favourite with Canadians and US and anything that distracts from Thailand is good us here

I agree that TAT is focussing on Asia and China in particular. But these tourists tend come for shorter stays and spend less. It is still the USD,EUR,GBP they covet, particularly as westerners have far more vacation time and disposable income than the average asian.

One piece of good news. A recent BBC World item focussed on the preference of peadophiles for Cambodia. It did not mention Thailand name but implied many were being forced to move to Cambodia to escape increased police attention elsewhere. More good news.

I am of the opinion that it is the minority low-lifes who are to blame for the current plight of visa runners. Sometimes the simple explanation is the correct one.

[deejah]

there is an errie connection in time between john karr on the front pages and the visa regulation inforcement changes

[ChokChaiChas]

there is an errie connection in time between john karr on the front pages and the visa regulation inforcement changes

The Thai government had already drafted the new orders before this unfortunate story. A visa bombshell was widely reported on this forum.

If there was any dispute as to whether to implement the orders John Carr settled that. So we have something to thank him for.

He gave international media an opportunity to focus again on the issue of undesireables taking advantage of Thailand's lax immigration laws, and the unwillingness of Thai authorities to tackle the issue of peadophiles, those "on the run", unqualified teachers who are best kept at a distance from children, and the mafia. Thailand justifiably got a very very bad press.

The decision to ratchet up the enforcement of existing law also possibly would not have happened without John Carr. For that we should also be grateful.

I know of people who are affected by the new orders through force of circumstance. Decent people. (Wife left so cannot renew marriage visa. Moved here with B visa and made redundant). I am sorry for them.

But let's not delude ourself. LOS has been a magnet for low lifes and dregs which reflects on us all. I welcome further tightening of the rules to expunge them and if some innocents get caught up that is unfortunate.

If finally I can rid myself of the embarrasment at confessing I have a Thai wife and live in Thailand, I am happy.

[Temporaneo]

whats missing here is the lazy thai govt in its incompetence and inability to establish good folks from bad.

For thai govt we farangs are all bad.

We are guilty of walking on holy thai soil, don't you know thai-land is for thai only ?

[PeaceBlondie]

whats missing here is the lazy thai govt in its incompetence and inability to establish good folks from bad.

For thai govt we farangs are all bad.

We are guilty of walking on holy thai soil, don't you know thai-land is for thai only ?

For the time being, temporaneo, I figured you left out some emoticons there, to show you were joking.

The average Thai immigration officer on the 'front line' who actually sees us, has a professional opinion that prefers (I suppose) the well dressed, polite foreigner with proper visa, no problems, sawadee khrap, and you're on your way. What the upper bosses have done is to tar too many farang with the same filthy brush, and some of us aren't that dirty.

[icecubes]

name='ChokChaiChas' date='2007-04-06 22:01:41' post='1239114']if

some innocents get caught up that is unfortunate.

name='ChokChaiChas' If finally I can rid myself of the embarrasment at confessing I have a Thai wife and live in Thailand, I am happy[/quote].

Edited April 6, 2007 by icecubes

[larvidchr]

Well, I might just be one of the innocents, I have been here allmost 2 years, I only have 8 months to go before I can apply for a retirement visa, I have a completely clean record home and here, I spend 120.000-130.000 Bath a month, all going in Thai pockets, I am not a pervert, drug user, scammer, sicko, I dont cirkumvent Thai law by working here, I havent set up any fake company, in fact now I think about it, other than enjoying myself, I have no real compelling reason to be here.

AND WITH ALL THIS VISA HASSEL, I have just about had enough, they migth get just what they want, somebody else can support and employ the Thais I do, I fully realise that does not mean a lot to Thailand in general, but it means a lot to me that I dont get pissed on for my own money.

[engrin]

unqualified teachers who are best kept at a distance from children

Should mothers and fathers have BAs too?

[sriracha john]

if some innocents get caught up that is unfortunate.

If finally I can rid myself of the embarrasment at confessing I have a Thai wife and live in Thailand, I am happy.

[cali4995]

Well, I might just be one of the innocents, I have been here allmost 2 years, I only have 8 months to go before I can apply for a retirement visa, I have a completely clean record home and here, I spend 120.000-130.000 Bath a month, all going in Thai pockets, I am not a pervert, drug user, scammer, sicko, I dont cirkumvent Thai law by working here, I havent set up any fake company, in fact now I think about it, other than enjoying myself, I have no real compelling reason to be here.

AND WITH ALL THIS VISA HASSEL, I have just about had enough, they migth get just what they want, somebody else can support and employ the Thais I do, I fully realise that does not mean a lot to Thailand in general, but it means a lot to me that I dont get pissed on for my own money.

as a hypothetical example, if all the thais on the west coast were required to go to some remote consulate in central america to renew their visas every month or so. official policies never being clear, the thais would be required to scour the internet for the latest travel updates. approval/rejection of visas, the outcome would never be certain, they might only have 7 days to return to their home countries. the process would be a maze of variations for officials to say no without actually saying no. if they took a slight misstep they could easily become stranded ouside of the borders. there would be such a huge outcry it would become an international incident. i only draw this hypothetical example to show how completely ridiculous the situation has become. but this is in fact, pretty much exactly what's transpiring here? taking advantage of the generosity of the thais? no, that doesn't seem to be quite what it is.more like, the other way around.

Edited April 7, 2007 by cali4995

[brahmburgers]

That the Thai visa rules are confusing is proven by the fact that this forum.

'tarred by the same brush' ....good analogy. Lots of good and well-meaning farang are being forced to reside elsewhere because of Imm.Dept's misbegotten and mutable policies. I sponsor teenage girls to go to nursing school even though I'm low income. None of that matters at all in the view of Imm.authorities. Money rules, and they just want to see lots of it, or you get shown the door.

[Whitey]

I haven't been enough of a world traveller to count the countries where I as a Westerner can just walk in with my passport, live there month after month and year after year, without getting some kind of a visa. Passing through as a tourist, sure. But to basically be a long term resident there, without them knowing my data, is a sure sign of an undeveloped country that can't afford to regulate itself.

Besides, stamps are given out for free. Real visas are expensive, and that's a revenue stream they are now tapping.

Ah, but i have done enough traveling to count the countries and offer a little more info on them.

- Mexico, you get 6 months at a time when crossing the border. Other mentioned this and you mentioned government protesting. That's something that gets you blacklisted and tossed in prison in Thailand, ask the Swiss guy. In Mexico, you can still get a visa to enter.

- Philippines: You can perpetually live on the 21 day visa you get when you enter. Just renew it every month until you've spent a year in the country. Exit the country and start the count all over again. If you marry a local girl, you get a free 1 year stay on entry that can be extended to 2 years.

- Honduras, get a 30 day entry, keep extending it out to 6 months. Leave the country and re-enter to start it all over again.

- Uruguay, get a 90 day stay, enter and exit perpetually. If you want to stay, just show $500 a month income from abroad and you got permanent residence(after 3 years you get citizenship)

- Chile, many teachers have been doing the twice yearly trip across the Andes to Argentina for years.

- Nicaragua, enter without a visa and stay up to a year by extending your visa.

- Guatemala, dont have the particulars but know many who live there as perpetual tourists.

Do I need to post more countries?

[baboon]

unqualified teachers who are best kept at a distance from children

Should mothers and fathers have BAs too?

Ssssshhhh! For the love of God, dont give them any more ideas!

A erm, "friend" of mine who lives in a certain southern town occasionally works illegally as a teacher. His only qualification is 15 years on the railways. He is not that keen on teaching but tries his best for the sake of the children. The point I am making is that schools must be getting really desperate to need to hire these unqualified teachers and this perpetual cycle of rule change - crackdown - rule change is going to hurt the Thai kids in the end as well as the foreigners they are booting out.

Just a thought. Sorry to be a bit off topic.

[jinjok]

bramburgers

good for you!! i have high respect for nurses and thought if i were to ever marry, it must be to a nurse. they are educated and have compassion.

but you are correct - yourself and a multitude of others that support the poor. but the object of the wealthy/powerful in thailand is much like the usa - to keep a pliant, subservient, cheap underclass in hand.

they care not a wit. in fact, i would never support any ngo's in asia - when i see how the wealthy live and what they steal.

how many guys married middle aged divorced women and take in her children and feed and educate them?? lots.

Edited April 7, 2007 by jinjok

[astral]

THE ALIENS ENTERING KINGDOM WITH NO VISA MUST PRESENT TICKET OR TRAVEL DOCUMENTS THAT HAVE BEEN PAID ALREADY OR CONFIRMED TO EXIT THE KIGNDOM AND MUST NOT EXCEED 30 DAYS UPON THE DATE OF ENTRANCE TO THE KINGDOM

Sound like an easily enforceable rule.

though it may prove unpopular with some travellers.

It will certainly sort out the sheep from the goats.

[jinjok]

astral:

as i had mentioned earlier, for a frequent traveler to thailand and someone traveling within asia, this is a nightmare.

it forces one into 30 day trip to thailand (not 35 or 45 or 60)

it will disadvantage all land travel throughout the region

it forces one into expensive tickets procured not from point a or b but country c

it may force some to purchase tickets they do not need nor will not use

it takes ticket sales out of thai hands completely

if this is how thailand encouraages tourism - they are surely mad.

[tim77]

Isnt that always the way ?? When boarding aircraft I often get asked for a proof of ticket in the old days when I was on visa free arrival.. I dont get asked if I have a non O..

So they enforce it at land borders also now ?? Is that the point ??

Just tell them you have an e-ticket on a ticketless airline.. That'll flommox em !!

With respect to e-tickets, at the Thai Embassy in Manila I have been required to show a letter on the letter head of the airline confirming that I had an e-ticket. This letter was required to be dated within 30 days of my showing it and the letter had to state that I had a confirmed seat on a plane out of Thailand within the next 30 days.

[giruz]

Isnt that always the way ?? When boarding aircraft I often get asked for a proof of ticket in the old days when I was on visa free arrival.. I dont get asked if I have a non O..

So they enforce it at land borders also now ?? Is that the point ??

Just tell them you have an e-ticket on a ticketless airline.. That'll flommox em !!

With respect to e-tickets, at the Thai Embassy in Manila I have been required to show a letter on the letter head of the airline confirming that I had an e-ticket. This letter was required to be dated within 30 days of my showing it and the letter had to state that I had a confirmed seat on a plane out of Thailand within the next 30 days.

So...just to clarify:

1) I will land in BKK with a OW ticket from Singapore

2) I have 3 bookings in/out thailand: BKK-CAMBODIA (and back), then BKK-MACAU, then BKK-HK

All my tickets are E-tickets (Airasia and Tiger Airways).

I do have a Eu passport

I do plan to leave Thailand (to go back in EU), but I plan to buy a ticket in BKK because it is cheaper that from where I'm now (Sydney).

Do I have to worry?

Or can I do something like:

land and show my first ticket (to Phon Phen and return), then go to a travel agent and buy it..then...forget about anything else...

do you think will work?

g.

[lopburi3]

This may be my first or 10th post; I don't know or care.

I've been traveling here since 1981, and it is currently the worst climate for foreigners I have seen.

And I must point out the it is the "Super Moderators" who, while disclaiming it with "...all due sympathy...", gleefully sit on their high horses (presumably with 'real visas'), and say 'sum num na' to those poor unfortunates who are perpetual tourists.

And before anyone asks, I currently have a Non-B one-year visa.

Human nature I suppose, to thumb your noses at those less well off, or Stockholm Syndrome maybe; again, I don't know or care.

It's just petty.

Sateev

Actually it is your second post; in four years. We 'super moderators' are donating our time and efforts to help those in need of visa help. What help have you provided?

[hanuman1]

Hello

I just got back today from Mae Sai. A long term stayer in LOS, I don't usually go for these 30-day visa exemptions, but this time wanted to avoid going to Laos. Not only was my 30-day exemption given to me immediately and without question, but there were absolutely no signs - either leaving or entering the Kingdom - about a requirement of proof of any onward travel.

Hope this helps someone.

H.

[Chaichara]

One person's experience - out of the hundreds of thousands that leave and enter, re-enter Thailand each day - and then posted on a web forum is always enough to scare the pants of anybody. If you were to read the Lonley Planet's tips about travelling in Thailand, all similarly submitted by unpaid volunteerr travel writers who just want to see their name in the list of 5,000 contributors in the back page, you wouldn't want to set foot anywhere near the Kingdom. What one reads in tourist guides and on forums: caveat.

I don't always wait for my 90 day entry to expire before doing a border run to Laos. I often go just for the day. Yesterday on returning to Nong Khai from Vientiane, everyone who was returning for another 30-day 'stamp' had their passport checked for the number of days previously spent in Thailand.

It does also happen occasionally that between non imm visas, I do have to get by on one or two 30-day tourist stamps before I leave the country to get a new visa. Nobody was asked if they had a return flight. But if they were and I was on a 30-day stamp I would probably point to my car in the car park and say 'That's my ticket out!'

[stevo]

they spent 20-30 years building this huge tourism base with friendly attitudes, making people feel welcome, a fun enjoyable holiday destination with a minimum of hassles. on the present course, it's going to take them about 2-3 years to destroy most of that . it just seems to defy all logical explanation.

My take on this. Genuine tourists are not going to be affected by the changes to the rules. That isn't to say there will not be an isolated instance of an over-zealous immigration officer.

Thailand is encouraging tourism. But a problem they face is the perception in the west that Thailand is populated by low-life expats. This perception is re-inforced in the media. Thailand wants to remove this perception by encouraging those previously abusing the system to leave. They then hope this will have a positive impact on tourist arrivals from the affluent west.

Some have suggested they are throwing out the baby with the bathwater and a lot of decent and/or wealthy expats are voluntarily or unwillingly moving out. Possibly. Certainly many "abusing " the system are decent people who have found themselves doing border runs through force of circumstance. But what they spend is peanuts compared to the potential currency inflow.

[stevo]

they spent 20-30 years building this huge tourism base with friendly attitudes, making people feel welcome, a fun enjoyable holiday destination with a minimum of hassles. on the present course, it's going to take them about 2-3 years to destroy most of that . it just seems to defy all logical explanation.

My take on this. Genuine tourists are not going to be affected by the changes to the rules. That isn't to say there will not be an isolated instance of an over-zealous immigration officer.

Thailand is encouraging tourism. But a problem they face is the perception in the west that Thailand is populated by low-life expats. This perception is re-inforced in the media. Thailand wants to remove this perception by encouraging those previously abusing the system to leave. They then hope this will have a positive impact on tourist arrivals from the affluent west.

Some have suggested they are throwing out the baby with the bathwater and a lot of decent and/or wealthy expats are voluntarily or unwillingly moving out. Possibly. Certainly many "abusing " the system are decent people who have found themselves doing border runs through force of circumstance. But what they spend is peanuts compared to the potential currency inflow.

[seagull]

I think that here lies in the discretion of a particular imm officer that he or she encounters at that point of entry into the kingdom. If you have noted in imm websites, that they always included the clause, that the approval is subject to imm officers approval, or embassies/consulates in the event of a visa. There is a ruling on proof of onward travel out of the kingdom (which is difficult to produce if leaving by land transport). But this is subject to flexibility of imm officers as they too understand that thailand's border is surrounded by land mass of other soveriegn countries, hence, other mode of exit from thailand is acceptable as long as you could explain your way to imm at checkpoints.

I really do not think that they do not welcome us foreigners. Maybe they just wish to remind us as to who is boss.

[marquess]

there is an errie connection in time between john karr on the front pages and the visa regulation inforcement changes

The Thai government had already drafted the new orders before this unfortunate story. A visa bombshell was widely reported on this forum.

If there was any dispute as to whether to implement the orders John Carr settled that. So we have something to thank him for.

He gave international media an opportunity to focus again on the issue of undesireables taking advantage of Thailand's lax immigration laws, and the unwillingness of Thai authorities to tackle the issue of peadophiles, those "on the run", unqualified teachers who are best kept at a distance from children, and the mafia. Thailand justifiably got a very very bad press.

The decision to ratchet up the enforcement of existing law also possibly would not have happened without John Carr. For that we should also be grateful.

I know of people who are affected by the new orders through force of circumstance. Decent people. (Wife left so cannot renew marriage visa. Moved here with B visa and made redundant). I am sorry for them.

But let's not delude ourself. LOS has been a magnet for low lifes and dregs which reflects on us all. I welcome further tightening of the rules to expunge them and if some innocents get caught up that is unfortunate.

If finally I can rid myself of the embarrasment at confessing I have a Thai wife and live in Thailand, I am happy.

Let's hope that you never become one of those "Unfortunates," that you feel so sorry for! We all exist here on a thread, unless you happen to be a citizen, don't labour under illusions!