Canada's Trudeau: Iran plane victims would be alive had there been no regional tensions

[yogi100]

24 minutes ago, Gudge said:

A lot of people here are spouting off about Trump killing a terrorist that attacked an American Embassy and had Intel was planning on another 4. It would have been sheer stupidity to warn Trudeau (Jihad Justine) of his plans as Trudeau's brother Sacha works for and is in the Iranian Government married to an Iranian and lives in Iran. Smart move eh. Same as he couldn't let the house know as it has been proven there are Iranian sympathisers sitting there. Why is nobody upset about all the Americans and allies that the man ordered killed.

You tell the security services of the nations involved not necessarily their leaders especially when the likes of Trudeau are concerned.

By the time Justin found out about it it would all have been done and dusted.

 

Trudeau along with Trump, Johnson and Macron are just figureheads. It's the men in suits behind the scenes who make the important decisions when it comes to matters of defense and the safety of citizens in the so called War on Terror.

 

It's been the security services who've foiled terrorist attacks in the UK not Cameron. May nor Johnson. They knew nothing about them till it was over.

 

But to act effectively these suits have to be told what's their allies are planning if they are to act in unison in the ongoing conflict especially if they may need to take preventative measures like not boarding a plane in a high risk zone.

 

We're either allies or we're not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 14, 2020 by yogi100

[userabcd]

4 hours ago, mogandave said:

Trudeau coined “the world is watching”? 
 

I think not. 

Maybe it was that obnoxious Trump appointee, Nikki Haley at the UN, maybe not but she was always heard coining the phrase ''the US is putting you on notice''

[Monomial]

3 hours ago, sucit said:

What is the point?

 

An entire plane full of people would still be alive if the US hadn't killed Soleimani, who happened to be a US ally under Bush ironically. 

 

To quite a few people, you not included, that point is pretty important. 

 

Unfortunately, this statement is simply a confirmation of preconceived biases. You are, of course, correct. Changing anyone of a number of factors could result in wildly different results. This is a primary axiom of chaos theory. In this case, anyone of the following events could have prevented the tragedy:

 

1. Trump could not have acted to kill Soleimani

2. Iran did not need to respond with missile strikes

3. Iran did not need to mistakenly hit a passenger airliner

4. The airliner did not need to take off an hour late

5. Boeing did not need to make a 737 to be shot down

6. The people on board the airline did not need to choose to travel that day

7. ...etc.

 

Which one of these specific factors you choose to blame for the tragedy represents the bias that you already possess. However, each point in the chain was equally important, and nobody could possibly have forseen the specific outcome in advance.

 

Personally, I think primary responsibility lies with the Denny Party that established Seattle in 1851. If Seattle were not there, then there would have been no Boeing as we know it today, and this probably would have resulted in an aircraft with a slightly different flight profile that would not have been accidentally shot down.

 

I do understand the human need to blame someone that you already dislike for a tragedy, but the fact remains Trudeau's comments are nothing more than a very common emotional outburst, rather than any kind of logical thinking.  They don't actually help the situation, and Trudeau, as a politician, should know this. One can only conclude he is making this statement for a very specific political purpose.

 

 

 

[smedly]

8 hours ago, chrisandsu said:

The Canadian Jeremy corbyn 

I think worse and that is hard to fathom 

 

He's also very hard to listen too

[sucit]

3 minutes ago, Monomial said:

 

Unfortunately, this statement is simply a confirmation of preconceived biases. You are, of course, correct. Changing anyone of a number of factors could result in wildly different results. This is a primary axiom of chaos theory. In this case, anyone of the following events could have prevented the tragedy:

 

1. Trump could not have acted to kill Soleimani

2. Iran did not need to respond with missile strikes

3. Iran did not need to mistakenly hit a passenger airliner

4. The airliner did not need to take off an hour late

5. Boeing did not need to make a 737 to be shot down

6. The people on board the airline did not need to choose to travel that day

7. ...etc.

 

Which one of these specific factors you choose to blame for the tragedy represents the bias that you already possess. However, each point in the chain was equally important, and nobody could possibly have forseen the specific outcome in advance.

 

Personally, I think primary responsibility lies with the Denny Party that established Seattle in 1851. If Seattle were not there, then there would have been no Boeing as we know it today, and this probably would have resulted in an aircraft with a slightly different flight profile that would not have been accidentally shot down.

 

I do understand the human need to blame someone that you already dislike for a tragedy, but the fact remains Trudeau's comments are nothing more than a very common emotional outburst, rather than any kind of logical thinking.  They don't actually help the situation, and Trudeau, as a politician, should know this. One can only conclude he is making this statement for a very specific political purpose.

 

 

 

You seem to have conveniently left off your list "USA lied the public into an illegal war in Iraq that killed hundreds of thousands of civilians and destabilized the region in the first place".  

 

What you seem to have concluded is if a mouse farts in Africa, it is just as likely to down a plane and kill passengers as an assassination of a military general. Maybe on paper somewhere in fantasy world, but that is not how things actually work. 

 

What I am stating is not biased at all. It is supported by the death figures for the past 20 years in the region we are discussing. The source of destabilization, death, loss of innocent civilian life is consistently the fault of US occupation and conflict escalation in the region. 

 

 

[dexterm]

2 hours ago, mogandave said:

And if “...Iran’s second in command...” wasn’t a murdering terrorist he wouldn’t have been on the kill list.

 

 

What's in a name? One man's freedom and resistance fighter is another man's terrorist. Off the top of my head I can think of a dozen so called terrorists who once "unlabelled" have been invited to the White House. What the hell are US troops doing in Iraq in the first place?

 

Whatever you think of Soleimani, there was no imminent danger or threat from him...Trump's excuse now blown away. He even now claims his pretext doesn't matter anyway. In other words Trump ordered the killing on a whim much to the astonishment of his advisers.

As a result Trump's escalation has made Americans less safe (he's now given Shiites a reason to hate them too..to join the Sunnis of 911 infamy), the withdrawal of US forces from Iraq more likely (although Trump now cant make up his mind whether he actually wants the troops home or not),making room for more Iranian and Russian influence, and an acceleration of Iran's nuclear program. Nice one Donald.

 

Not only has Trump's recklessness caused all the above counter productive damage, the point Trudeau was making in the OP was that as an indirect result of Trump's unnecessary whim, 176 innocent people lost their lives. That fact is incontrovertible. 

Edited January 14, 2020 by dexterm

[Ventenio]

Yes, that Solemeni guy killed thousands....he needed to be put down before the number got much bigger.  People are in Iran, it's dangerous.  Canada is like the step-child America never needed but will likely take care of it forever, since the roles will never reverse.  Iran is full of drugs and terrorists, let's not forget the danger there.  Canada needs to act strong against Iran, and trying to blame Trump is like trying to blame America for trying to take out Hitler but only after he killed around the world.  

[dexterm]

5 minutes ago, Ventenio said:

Yes, that Solemeni guy killed thousands....he needed to be put down before the number got much bigger.  People are in Iran, it's dangerous.  Canada is like the step-child America never needed but will likely take care of it forever, since the roles will never reverse.  Iran is full of drugs and terrorists, let's not forget the danger there.  Canada needs to act strong against Iran, and trying to blame Trump is like trying to blame America for trying to take out Hitler but only after he killed around the world.  

>>before the number got much bigger. 

The point Trudeau is making in the OP is that as a result of Trump's needless assassination of Soleimani the number of people killed has indeed got bigger...by 176 innocent people!

 

Why not show statesmanship by de-escalating the situation, as the Iranians did by their face saving retaliation that killed no-one. 

Edited January 14, 2020 by dexterm

[mogandave]

5 minutes ago, dexterm said:

>>before the number got much bigger. 

The point Trudeau is making in the OP is that as a result of Trump's needless assassination of Soleimani the number of people killed has indeed got bigger...by 176 innocent people!

 

Why not show statesmanship by de-escalating the situation, as the Iranians did by their face saving retaliation that killed no-one. 

More likely killing the terrorist saves thousands of lives. 
 

Iran’s retaliation is what killed the “176 innocent people”, and the number would have been much higher had they been more successful with their missile attack. 

[mogandave]

18 minutes ago, dexterm said:

What's in a name? One man's freedom and resistance fighter is another man's terrorist. Off the top of my head I can think of a dozen so called terrorists who once "unlabelled" have been invited to the White House. What the hell are US troops doing in Iraq in the first place?

 

Yes, to you he’s a hero me he is a pig.

 

18 minutes ago, dexterm said:

Whatever you think of Soleimani, there was no imminent danger or threat from him...Trump's excuse now blown away. He even now claims his pretext doesn't matter anyway. In other words Trump ordered the killing on a whim much to the astonishment of his advisers.

The pig had been on a terrorist kill list for at least ten years. The extermination was the culmination of a nine month operation, not a whim. 

 

18 minutes ago, dexterm said:
As a result Trump's escalation has made Americans less safe (he's now given Shiites a reason to hate them too..to join the Sunnis of 911 infamy), the withdrawal of US forces from Iraq more likely (although Trump now cant make up his mind whether he actually wants the troops home or not),making room for more Iranian and Russian influence, and an acceleration of Iran's nuclear program. Nice one Donald.

 

Not only has Trump's recklessness caused all the above counter productive damage, the point Trudeau was making in the OP was that as an indirect result of Trump's unnecessary whim, 176 innocent people lost their lives. That fact is incontrovertible. 

 

I don’t feel less safe, but I’m sure there are a lot of terrorists that do.

 

The Obama nuclear deal with Iran was ridiculous as was his abandonment of Iraq. 
 

Trudeau is a leftist fool pandering to his base of lemmings, 

[Monomial]

16 minutes ago, sucit said:

You seem to have conveniently left off your list "USA lied the public into an illegal war in Iraq that killed hundreds of thousands of civilians and destabilized the region in the first place".  

 

What you seem to have concluded is if a mouse farts in Africa, it is just as likely to down a plane and kill passengers as an assassination of a military general. Maybe on paper somewhere in fantasy world, but that is not how things actually work. 

 

What I am stating is not biased at all. It is supported by the death figures for the past 20 years in the region we are discussing. The source of destabilization, death, loss of innocent civilian life is consistently the fault of US occupation and conflict escalation in the region. 

 

 

 

I happy to include any number of additional factors that could have prevented the tragedy. It wasn't convenience at all. Merely the fact that typing every event throughout human history would get tedious and nobody would read it.

 

And as to your second point. Absolutely. A butterfly flaps its wings in China and causes a hurricane in Florida.  That is the essence of chaos theory, although as you get further removed from the events the chain does start to become more tenuous, thus the reductio ad absurdum arguments you are now appealing to in order to try and downplay this inconvenient truth.

 

The reality is still there whether you wish to accept it or not. Only your biases allow you to say that this link in the chain is primary. It is absolutely biased. Everyone has biases, otherwise known as beliefs and values. You may not even realize it, but your argument is an appeal to values and emotion, not to logic.

 

There are lots of things that caused the jet to go down, and reasonable people will disagree with you about which thing was primary. That doesn't mean anyone is wrong. However it does mean that everyone is biased, and nobody is necessarily more correct than anyone else.

 

As a politician, Trudeau knows all this. He has advisors to help him know this. The only reason he would have made such a statement is for a specific political reason.   This was a terrible tragedy. That is the only unbiased truth. And lots of things were to blame.

[sucit]

9 minutes ago, Monomial said:

 

I happy to include any number of additional factors that could have prevented the tragedy. It wasn't convenience at all. Merely the fact that typing every event throughout human history would get tedious and nobody would read it.

 

And as to your second point. Absolutely. A butterfly flaps its wings in China and causes a hurricane in Florida.  That is the essence of chaos theory, although as you get further removed from the events the chain does start to become more tenuous, thus the reductio ad absurdum arguments you are now appealing to in order to try and downplay this inconvenient truth.

 

The reality is still there whether you wish to accept it or not. Only your biases allow you to say that this link in the chain is primary. It is absolutely biased. Everyone has biases, otherwise known as beliefs and values. You may not even realize it, but your argument is an appeal to values and emotion, not to logic.

 

There are lots of things that caused the jet to go down, and reasonable people will disagree with you about which thing was primary. That doesn't mean anyone is wrong. However it does mean that everyone is biased, and nobody is necessarily more correct than anyone else.

 

As a politician, Trudeau knows all this. He has advisors to help him know this. The only reason he would have made such a statement is for a specific political reason.   This was a terrible tragedy. That is the only unbiased truth. And lots of things were to blame.

You big revelation is "everyone is biased". 

 

I love these "debates" because they always go off into fairytale land when someone is asked a simple question like "who are causing all the destabilization in the region", which result in the killing of innocent civilians. 

 

You can keep claiming that "a butterfly flapping its wings" could have had just a great an impact on the downing of the plane as an illegal assassination. The reality, whether you choose to accept it or not, is the USA made a call to dramatically escalate tensions in the region, which resulted in a high pressured mistake.

 

But please, keep talking about butterflies being the cause of the deaths as opposed to an overly aggressive military actions in the region. 

[sandyf]

3 hours ago, mogandave said:

And if “...Iran’s second in command...” wasn’t a murdering terrorist he wouldn’t have been on the kill list.

 

 

That is not a particularly relevant point.

Who was the most vocal when Russia was accused of assassination on foreign soil, branding it totally unacceptable.

Who was the most vocal over the Saudi assassination on foreign soil, branding it totally unacceptable.

 

Answers on a postage stamp.

[thooktong]

Truedau is just unfortunately right.

Trump is unpredictable and Iranians may have thought he would launch his B52 bombing Tehran????

Edited January 14, 2020 by thooktong

[dexterm]

34 minutes ago, mogandave said:

More likely killing the terrorist saves thousands of lives. 
 

Iran’s retaliation is what killed the “176 innocent people”, and the number would have been much higher had they been more successful with their missile attack. 

>>More likely killing the terrorist saves thousands of lives.

..how? A general is replacable and Trump's idiocy has now radicalized thousands more martyrs.

 

>>The extermination was the culmination of a nine month operation, not a whim. 

..Baloney..that contradicts the imminent danger excuse that Trump has since backtracked on.

 

>>The Obama nuclear deal with Iran was ridiculous as was his abandonment of Iraq. 

..Obama's nuclear deal according to independent inspectors was working. Because of Trump, Iran has now ditched all previous impediments. Go figure who was more effective in containing Irans' nuclear program!

>> abandonment of Iraq? (is that anything like abandoning Kurds to make way for Russia, Turkey and ISIS?) Isn't it Trump's boast that he will halt endless wars and bring the troops home?

 

[mogandave]

4 minutes ago, dexterm said:

>>More likely killing the terrorist saves thousands of lives.

..how? A general is replacable and Trump's idiocy has now radicalized thousands more martyrs.

 

Are those the people protesting in Iran now? 

 

4 minutes ago, dexterm said:

>>The extermination was the culmination of a nine month operation, not a whim. 

..Baloney..that contradicts the imminent danger excuse that Trump has since backtracked on.
 

 

“Baloney” seems to just about all you know about it. 
 

 A terrorist pig is by definition an imminent danger, the world is a better, safer place because he’s dead.

 

4 minutes ago, dexterm said:

>>The Obama nuclear deal with Iran was ridiculous as was his abandonment of Iraq. 

..Obama's nuclear deal according to independent inspectors was working. Because of Trump, Iran has now ditched all previous impediments. Go figure who was more effective in containing Irans' nuclear program!

 

Working how and for who? Inspectors that have to give advance notice of inspection is the same as no inspection at all. In any event, it was only ever designed delay Iran’s nuclear armament, not stop it.

 

It needs to be stopped, not delayed.  

 

4 minutes ago, dexterm said:

>> abandonment of Iraq? (is that anything like abandoning Kurds to make way for Russia, Turkey and ISIS?) Isn't it Trump's boast that he will halt endless wars and bring the troops home?

 

Something like that yes, but much worse. Had Obama not pulled out (against the advice of virtually all his advisors) it wouldn’t have been an issue. 
 

To be clear, in my opinion, Trump abandoning the Kurds was shameful. It was the worst thing he has done done as President. 
 

[unblocktheplanet]

American "regional tensions"! Yanqui go home!

[sucit]

2 hours ago, mogandave said:

 

Are those the people protesting in Iran now? 

 

 

“Baloney” seems to just about all you know about it. 
 

 A terrorist pig is by definition an imminent danger, the world is a better, safer place because he’s dead.

 

 

Working how and for who? Inspectors that have to give advance notice of inspection is the same as no inspection at all. In any event, it was only ever designed delay Iran’s nuclear armament, not stop it.

 

It needs to be stopped, not delayed.  

 

 

Something like that yes, but much worse. Had Obama not pulled out (against the advice of virtually all his advisors) it wouldn’t have been an issue. 
 

To be clear, in my opinion, Trump abandoning the Kurds was shameful. It was the worst thing he has done done as President. 
 

Once again, you are believing the same people who sold you on the Iraq war. Every single word, you have ingested perfectly, just as they want you to do. But you know they lied last time... I know what that makes you, but I will leave that word up to yourself to figure out. 

 

200k innocent civilians died in the Iraq war, which was based on a lie. Do you need a calculator or something? Who are the "terrorists"? Go check out an image of the number of US bases surrounding Iran. Start figuring out who is the aggressor in these conflicts, who is destabilizing and who are the real terrorists.

 

And, can you explain why Bush worked with Soleimani to fight isis, and now they are all of the sudden assassinating him. Strange turn of events, don't you think? Not to mention the US boasting how they defeated isis when it was Soleimani forces fighting the ground war the entire time. 

Edited January 14, 2020 by sucit

[ThaiFelix]

10 hours ago, PhonThong said:

Is not what I would consider an American friend.

Thats right, the US doesnt have allies or friends. only tools!

[atyclb]

12 hours ago, Curt1591 said:

[mogandave]

16 minutes ago, sucit said:

Once again, you are believing the same people who sold you on the Iraq war.

What people are those? 
 

I was never sold on the Iraq war.

[cheapcanuck]

11 hours ago, Tug said:

Cause and effect ,trump Welching on the nuclear treaty attempting to strangle a nations ecomemy = trashed embassy= trump killing a foreign general (personally I’m glad he’s dead)=a response from Iran = a trigger happy scared Iranian= an airliner shot down = a big fat unessary mess cause and effect my deepest condolences to all affected by this foreign policy fiasco 

_{you forgot the steps that started it all. 1 Obama signed the Iran nuclear deal with Iran and the rest of the world. 2 tRumplethinskin hell bent on dismantling Obama's legacy pulls the USA out of the deal.}

Edited January 14, 2020 by cheapcanuck
Correction

[sucit]

1 hour ago, mogandave said:

What people are those? 
 

I was never sold on the Iraq war.

You claimed Soleimani was a terrorist pig who deserved to die.

 

Let me know the things he has done that are worse than US actions in the region: fabricating an illegal war in Iraq and killing 200k innocent civilians in said illegal war.

(and mind you, this us just a single example of the countless wars going on for the last 20 years)

 

Again, what did Soleimani do that was worse than that? Be specific. Just calling someone a "terrorist pig" does not count. Somebody can call you that, right? But that would not make it true. What actions did he tale to make him a terrorist pig, specifically worse than US actions. Because, if you can't name anything, and you certainly can't, the logic you are applying to Soleimani should apply to the leaders in the US. 

 

Edited January 14, 2020 by sucit

[mogandave]

6 minutes ago, sucit said:

You claimed Soleimani was a terrorist pig who deserved to die.

 

Let me know the things he has done that are worse than US actions in the region: fabricating an illegal war in Iraq and killing 200k innocent civilians in said illegal war.

(and mind you, this us just a single example of the countless wars going on for the last 20 years)

 

Again, what did Soleimani do that was worse than that? Be specific. Just calling someone a "terrorist pig" does not count. Somebody can call you that, right? But that would not make it true. What actions did he tale to make him a terrorist pig, specifically worse than US actions. Because, if you can't name anything, and you certainly can't, the logic you are applying to Soleimani should apply to the leaders in the US. 

 

Still waiting for you to answer my question. 

[Sujo]

8 minutes ago, mogandave said:

Still waiting for you to answer my question. 

The people trump has told you for 3 years are the deep state and not to trust them. But funny enough you do.

 

[chrisandsu]

6 hours ago, samran said:

Sorry that I don’t post in pre-approved breibart-speak. 
 

Maybe you can dazzle us with some more emoji use?

Awww sounds like someone’s been beating off to vice news /cnn/msnbc/Fox News (you like your finger on the pulse ) everything that comes out of your mouth is regurgitated typical limp wristed buzz word bs . Keep on keeping on my little tofu warrior .

[Sujo]

4 hours ago, mogandave said:

 

Are those the people protesting in Iran now? 

The people protesting are against the shooting down of the airliner, in my experience iranians are very nice people.

 

4 hours ago, mogandave said:

 

 

“Baloney” seems to just about all you know about it. 
 

 A terrorist pig is by definition an imminent danger, the world is a better, safer place because he’s dead.

If that was correct then pompeo could easily say what attacks were imminent. Why did trump say 4 embassies were subject to imminent threat but refused to warn them of that threat. They also are not carrying on with that bs, its now moved to a deterrence policy.

 

4 hours ago, mogandave said:

 

 

Working how and for who? Inspectors that have to give advance notice of inspection is the same as no inspection at all. In any event, it was only ever designed delay Iran’s nuclear armament, not stop it.

 

 

It needs to be stopped, not delayed.  

And now it is increasing. Go figure.

4 hours ago, mogandave said:

 

 

Something like that yes, but much worse. Had Obama not pulled out (against the advice of virtually all his advisors) it wouldn’t have been an issue. 
 

To be clear, in my opinion, Trump abandoning the Kurds was shameful. It was the worst thing he has done done as President. 
 

 

[Sujo]

4 minutes ago, chrisandsu said:

Awww sounds like someone’s been beating off to vice news /cnn/msnbc/Fox News (you like your finger on the pulse ) everything that comes out of your mouth is regurgitated typical limp wristed buzz word bs . Keep on keeping on my little tofu warrior .

So where is the breitbart evidence.

[chrisandsu]

4 minutes ago, Sujo said:

So where is the breitbart evidence.

To be perfectly honest I had to google who breitbart are (yes I’m sorry I’m using google again) I think he’s stuck in some sort of vortex where every time he mentions fox/breitbart with someone he doesn’t agree with he gives him self an imaginary jazz hand . Next he will be coming out with the killer - you must be a racist /xenophobe/homophone /islamaphobe .... take your pick as you know when someone is as generic as our esteemed friend it’s for certain coming my way . 

[sucit]

44 minutes ago, mogandave said:

Still waiting for you to answer my question. 

What you and I have 100% established:

 

You have called Suleimani a terrorist pig who deserves to die, yet you have no idea what he did! You simply repeat things you hear Sean Hannity say. That is amazing.

 

You also have no idea what he has done relative to the US occupying actions in the region. Meaning, is the US a more destabilizing and murderous force in the region, or was he? 

 

You do not have any actual arguments, so you deflect. 

 

I consider my job done here. I will let others pick up any scraps there are left of your (nonexistent) argument. 

Edited January 14, 2020 by sucit