U.S. Senate rejects Democratic bid for documents in Trump impeachment trial

[riclag]

1 hour ago, heybruce said:

How many more times?  President Zelensky doesn't dare upset Trump when Ukraine is dependent on US support to survive its war with Russia.  Lying for the good of the nation  is common during wartime.  President Zelensky knew he wasn't getting a meeting with Trump without first announcing the BS investigation.  The Ukraine government knew it hadn't received the promised aid and that time to receive it was running out.

 

Your confidence in Bolton is misplaced.  He's unhappy with being fired for trying to keep Trump from doing something insanely stupid.  Remember what a ruthless, vindictive SOB he is?  https://www.yahoo.com/news/bolton-who-may-hold-impeachment-bombshell-has-a-history-of-settling-scores-170021430.html

 "Lying for the good of the nation" and "doesn't dare upset Trump "

  These  comments are nonsensical conspiracy theories !

Fact: Z ,no pressure,no push, no blackmail on 3 separate interviews!

 

IMOP  if he felt intimidated he could of gone to other members of the foreign aid committee to make his case, the dems would of took him in with open arms ,given him his money, then make a case to implicate the POTUS.

 

He knew? 

"Ukraine finally learned about the holdup in late August, nearly a month after the call, according to Olena Zerkal, the deputy foreign minister who was acting minister at the time of the call. And they only found out from a “letter sent to us from our Washington Embassy” that provided no explanation for the move, she said. Zerkal said she couldn’t remember the exact date of the letter, but it was before Politico broke the news of the holdup on Aug. 28".

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/christopherm51/ukraine-unaware-aid-holdup-month-after-trump-call

 

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, riclag said:

 "Lying for the good of the nation" and "doesn't dare upset Trump "

  These  comments are nonsensical conspiracy theories !

Fact: Z ,no pressure,no push, no blackmail on 3 separate interviews!

 

IMOP  if he felt intimidated he could of gone to other members of the foreign aid committee to make his case, the dems would of took him in with open arms ,given him his money, then make a case to implicate the POTUS.

 

He knew? 

"Ukraine finally learned about the holdup in late August, nearly a month after the call, according to Olena Zerkal, the deputy foreign minister who was acting minister at the time of the call. And they only found out from a “letter sent to us from our Washington Embassy” that provided no explanation for the move, she said. Zerkal said she couldn’t remember the exact date of the letter, but it was before Politico broke the news of the holdup on Aug. 28".

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/christopherm51/ukraine-unaware-aid-holdup-month-after-trump-call

 

Do you think Zelensky did not know that Ukraine had not yet received Congressionally approved aid?  Do you think that he and his government were not aware that if the aid was not sent before September 30 it would be lost?  Do you think he hadn't noticed that the meeting he needed with Trump before negotiating with Russia had not happened?

 

The fact that leaders will lie for the good of their nation is not a conspiracy theory.  The nonsense Trump wanted investigated were conspiracy theories.

[WalkingOrders]

4 hours ago, heybruce said:

How many more times?  President Zelensky doesn't dare upset Trump when Ukraine is dependent on US support to survive its war with Russia.  Lying for the good of the nation  is common during wartime.  President Zelensky knew he wasn't getting a meeting with Trump without first announcing the BS investigation.  The Ukraine government knew it hadn't received the promised aid and that time to receive it was running out.

 

Your confidence in Bolton is misplaced.  He's unhappy with being fired for trying to keep Trump from doing something insanely stupid.  Remember what a ruthless, vindictive SOB he is?  https://www.yahoo.com/news/bolton-who-may-hold-impeachment-bombshell-has-a-history-of-settling-scores-170021430.html

Read and laugh at the posters claims and the absolute absense of logic:

 

1. Mind reading: "President Zelensky doesn't dare upset Trump"

 

2. Mind Reading and Accusing President of Ukraine of being a liar:

"Lying for the good of the nation  is common during wartime."

 

3. Mind Reading: "President Zelensky knew..."

 

Regarding Bolton, the Neocon who managed to slip into the Trump administration, I don't claim anything at all about him as witness except no one knows what he would say. Especially important for Democrats to keep in mind.

[JHolmesJr]

Wowww. The presidents defense team went on the offensive big time last night.

I loved the bit where it was revealed that WH had declined permission for Bolton

to publish his book, on grounds of national security (their absolute prerogative), 3 days before

the leak of the manuscript. Looks like no payday for John Bolton.

 

Also surfacing: a video of Bolton talking with Andrew Napolitano where he says he would lie under oath if it was necessary to protect the country...many of these charlatans think they're protecting USA by removing Trump.

 

I predict a swift end to these proceedings tomorrow....no witnesses, vote to dismiss.

 

Forever impeached.....but forever acquitted.

 

[Ricohoc]

18 minutes ago, JHolmesJr said:

Wowww. The presidents defense team went on the offensive big time last night.

I loved the bit where it was revealed that WH had declined permission for Bolton

to publish his book, on grounds of national security (their absolute prerogative), 3 days before

the leak of the manuscript. Looks like no payday for John Bolton.

 

Also surfacing: a video of Bolton talking with Andrew Napolitano where he says he would lie under oath if it was necessary to protect the country...many of these charlatans think they're protecting USA by removing Trump.

 

I predict a swift end to these proceedings tomorrow....no witnesses, vote to dismiss.

 

Forever impeached.....but forever acquitted.

 

The Bolton Bombshell has gone the way of all the others.  Wait 24 to 36 hours after the media goes into their frenzy, and it all just fizzles into thin air.  How many times have we been told that "the walls are closing in" and that this was "the beginning of the end for Trump."  Comey, Mueller, Stormy, Cohen, Avenatti, the gossipblower, the 17 House witnesses with hurt feelings, and now this.

 

Using the Kavanaugh Hearings playbook, I fully expect there to be more of these go-nowhere "bombshells" to follow.

 

[Ricohoc]

3 hours ago, WalkingOrders said:

. . .

Mind reading 

. . . 

This has also been the focus when it comes to Trump -- what his enemies THINK he would do, is/was planning, is/was thinking.  It's ridiculous.

[Ricohoc]

17 hours ago, WalkingOrders said:

The Democrats dont want witnesses. They just want to posture that they want witnesses. I would love to hear what the Biden campaign has to say. Or schiffs staffers, the whistleblower, etc behind closed doors. Don't believe the hype. A long battle to ultimately lose? Sure, fight for witnesses... make my day!

I agree with that assessment.  This is just a continuation of the Dem political exercise to damage Trump and hope to damage Republican US Senators.

 

From what I understand from Senators who have been interviewed is that if the body votes to call witnesses, it does not throw open the doors to any and all witnesses.  The appearance of each proposed witness would be voted upon. 

[WalkingOrders]

Just out regarding witnesses:

Breaking: After meeting with centrist Republican, Mitch McConnell has enough votes to block witnesses in ...

https://www.theblaze.com/news/mcconnell-can-now-block-witnesses-in-trial

[Eric Loh]

6 minutes ago, Ricohoc said:

The Bolton Bombshell has gone the way of all the others.  Wait 24 to 36 hours after the media goes into their frenzy, and it all just fizzles into thin air.  How many times have we been told that "the walls are closing in" and that this was "the beginning of the end for Trump."  Comey, Mueller, Stormy, Cohen, Avenatti, the gossipblower, the 17 House witnesses with hurt feelings, and now this.

 

Using the Kavanaugh Hearings playbook, I fully expect there to be more of these go-nowhere "bombshells" to follow.

 

Akin to the Chinese water torture. Drips, leaks and revelations that will slowly wear down the voting public to vote against the incumbent or drive him insane and do more impeachable criminal stuffs. 

[Ricohoc]

6 minutes ago, WalkingOrders said:

Just out regarding witnesses:

Breaking: After meeting with centrist Republican, Mitch McConnell has enough votes to block witnesses in ...

https://flip.it/O9s7ck

Lindsey Graham predicted it yesterday.  

[Eric Loh]

10 minutes ago, WalkingOrders said:

Just out regarding witnesses:

Breaking: After meeting with centrist Republican, Mitch McConnell has enough votes to block witnesses in ...

https://www.theblaze.com/news/mcconnell-can-now-block-witnesses-in-trial

But but why? Don’t they want to hear from first hand witnesses that they dearly wanted. What happen to the Rep Party that stand for rule of law. Sad departure of such noble values just for one corrupt man and to secure their further employment. 

[WalkingOrders]

4 hours ago, Cat ji said:

????  I'm sure our understanding of septic tank is quite different. ????  However, I don't know about Schiff or Nadler but I do know Schumer, old see you next Thursday is long overdue for Hell.  USA senators really should have a compulsory retirement age.

This American is quite familiar with cockney rhyming slang -  a couple of years of English roommates ????

[JHolmesJr]

Bolton will never get another government gig ever....he's condemned to the speech

circuit now....doling out bits of salacious gossip. He's DONE. Good riddance.

 

Another swamp dweller eliminated....Trump did a good job on him.

[Eric Loh]

11 minutes ago, JHolmesJr said:

Bolton will never get another government gig ever....he's condemned to the speech

circuit now....doling out bits of salacious gossip. He's DONE. Good riddance.

 

Another swamp dweller eliminated....Trump did a good job on him.

A swamp dweller appointed by Trump. Bolton did the right thing to resign from the swamp and walk away from a WH ‘drug deal’. 

[JHolmesJr]

25 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

A swamp dweller appointed by Trump. Bolton did the right thing to resign from the swamp and walk away from a WH ‘drug deal’. 

 

Fantastic...now you and Bolton can have a few beers together and binge watch 'Narcos'.

[heybruce]

5 hours ago, WalkingOrders said:

Read and laugh at the posters claims and the absolute absense of logic:

 

1. Mind reading: "President Zelensky doesn't dare upset Trump"

 

2. Mind Reading and Accusing President of Ukraine of being a liar:

"Lying for the good of the nation  is common during wartime."

 

3. Mind Reading: "President Zelensky knew..."

 

Regarding Bolton, the Neocon who managed to slip into the Trump administration, I don't claim anything at all about him as witness except no one knows what he would say. Especially important for Democrats to keep in mind.

My logic is sound.  Your willingness to accept the obvious is lacking.

[riclag]

8 hours ago, heybruce said:

Do you think Zelensky did not know that Ukraine had not yet received Congressionally approved aid?  Do you think that he and his government were not aware that if the aid was not sent before September 30 it would be lost?  Do you think he hadn't noticed that the meeting he needed with Trump before negotiating with Russia had not happened?

 

The fact that leaders will lie for the good of their nation is not a conspiracy theory.  The nonsense Trump wanted investigated were conspiracy theories.

Lie, nonsense, why would this leader(Z) lie? His party ran on investigating corruption ! The last thing a leader would do who's # 1  campaign policy, is lie! Your presumption  is just what it is a presumption!

Fact,  the lead witness said on 3 separate occasions, saying  no push,no blackmail and normal!

[candide]

2 hours ago, Eric Loh said:

A swamp dweller appointed by Trump. Bolton did the right thing to resign from the swamp and walk away from a WH ‘drug deal’. 

Even swamp dwellers don't want to keep on working for Trump. ????

[candide]

8 minutes ago, riclag said:

Lie, nonsense, why would this leader(Z) lie? His party ran on investigating corruption ! The last thing a leader would do who's # 1  campaign policy, is lie! Your presumption  is just what it is a presumption!

Fact, no push,no blackmail and normal!

With statements ready to be interpreted the other way, if needed. I did not feel pressured by the call....but my aids were pressured before and after. I did not act under pressure,....I did resist it.

He carefully phrased what he said.

[heybruce]

24 minutes ago, riclag said:

Lie, nonsense, why would this leader(Z) lie? His party ran on investigating corruption ! The last thing a leader would do who's # 1  campaign policy, is lie! Your presumption  is just what it is a presumption!

Fact,  the lead witness said on 3 separate occasions, saying  no push,no blackmail and normal!

Why would Zelensky lie?  Really?  I've explained it repeatedly, in terms a child would understand. 

 

Once more, in the simplest possible terms:  Zelensky lied because Russia could destroy Ukraine if Ukraine didn't have the help of the US, and Trump would withhold this help if Zelensky told the truth.

 

I know you won't accept this, because it is not what Trump wants you to believe.  Zelensky must be telling the truth because what he says is what Trump wants you to believe, and Bolton must be lying because what he says is not what Trump wants you to believe.

 

That is true Trump Derangement Syndrome.  I bet you believed Trump when he said that the economic indicators that made Obama look good were fake, and you believed Trump when he said the same economic indicators are now real because they make him look good. 

[johnmell]

They like winners in America.If Trump is acquitted watch his poll numbers rise.

Would be difficult to see from the Democrats contenders who could beat him.

[Ricohoc]

6 hours ago, Eric Loh said:

But but why? Don’t they want to hear from first hand witnesses that they dearly wanted. What happen to the Rep Party that stand for rule of law. Sad departure of such noble values just for one corrupt man and to secure their further employment. 

The Republican Senators are following precedent.  There were no NEW witnesses called in previous impeachment trials -- only calls for witnesses who had already appeared in grand juries or in the House Impeachment Investigation.  They were part of the evidence that the House had already provided.

 

By calling NEW witnesses, the Senate would be opening the door to a parade of similar shoddy incomplete impeachment work done by the House.  If the House doesn't do their work, the Senate won't do it for them.  

 

Following the rule of law is important -- and in the eyes of even Democrats, precedent is extremely important and is part of the rule of law. 

 

Ask Democrats about precedent in Roe v. Wade. 

 

However, like everything else in their world, precedent only matters if they agree with the particular precedent.

[riclag]

5 hours ago, candide said:

With statements ready to be interpreted the other way, if needed. I did not feel pressured by the call....but my aids were pressured before and after. I did not act under pressure,....I did resist it.

He carefully phrased what he said.

Thats your opinion! I stated facts,your essentially in denial.

Here is another one that backs the key witness.

"Ukrainian Foreign Minister Vadym Prystaiko on Saturday denied suggestions U.S. President Donald Trump had put pressure on Ukrainian leader Volodymyr Zelenskiy during a phone call in July"

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-whistleblower-ukraine/ukraine-minister-denies-trump-put-pressure-on-zelenskiy-during-call-report-idUSKBN1W60HU

.

[riclag]

4 hours ago, heybruce said:

Why would Zelensky lie?  Really?  I've explained it repeatedly, in terms a child would understand. 

 

Once more, in the simplest possible terms:  Zelensky lied because Russia could destroy Ukraine if Ukraine didn't have the help of the US, and Trump would withhold this help if Zelensky told the truth.

 

I know you won't accept this, because it is not what Trump wants you to believe.  Zelensky must be telling the truth because what he says is what Trump wants you to believe, and Bolton must be lying because what he says is not what Trump wants you to believe.

 

That is true Trump Derangement Syndrome.  I bet you believed Trump when he said that the economic indicators that made Obama look good were fake, and you believed Trump when he said the same economic indicators are now real because they make him look good. 

And you have been told before on numerous occasions the facts!

No blackmail,no push and normal ! You deal in presumptions,I'm stating facts!

 

[mogandave]

18 hours ago, candide said:

With such overwhelming evidence, why is it that the Republican administration did not start any official investigation? Dereliction of duty? ????

How do you know an investigation hasn’t been started?

[candide]

18 minutes ago, mogandave said:

How do you know an investigation hasn’t been started?

You came up with the same question several times already, so It's the same reply as before. The DOJ officially stated there was none.

Additionally, I know that Trump is stupid, but not stupid enough to hide what could be a key argument.

Is there something you don't understand in this repeated reply?

[mogandave]

6 minutes ago, candide said:

You came up with the same question several times already, so It's the same reply as before. The DOJ officially stated there was none.

Additionally, I know that Trump is stupid, but not stupid enough to hide what could be a key argument.

Is there something you don't understand in this repeated reply?

Do you have a link to an official announcement? 

Trump doesn’t need a “key argument”.

 

Even if witnesses are called he can stop anyone the left want to hear from from testifying. 

[candide]

21 minutes ago, mogandave said:

Do you have a link to an official announcement? 

Trump doesn’t need a “key argument”.

 

Even if witnesses are called he can stop anyone the left want to hear from from testifying. 

Same type of link I provided before to you....

“The president has not spoken with the attorney general about having Ukraine investigate anything relating to former Vice President Biden or his son,” DOJ spokeswoman Kerri Kupec said immediately after the transcript's release. “The president has not asked the attorney general to contact Ukraine — on this or any other matter. The attorney general has not communicated with Ukraine — on this or any other subject. Nor has the attorney general discussed this matter, or anything relating to Ukraine, with Rudy Giuliani.”

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/news-to-us-doj-distances-itself-from-mulvaney-claim-that-ukraine-aid-was-tied-to-investigation

Actually, even Trump stated it. I am surprised you were not aware of it.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-whistleblower-justice/trump-says-he-has-not-asked-doj-to-investigate-bidens-son-idUSKBN1WQ2OV

 

But I have no doubt you will reply in a few days or weeks with exactly the same question.

 

[Jingthing]

3 hours ago, Ricohoc said:

The Republican Senators are following precedent.  There were no NEW witnesses called in previous impeachment trials -- only calls for witnesses who had already appeared in grand juries or in the House Impeachment Investigation.  They were part of the evidence that the House had already provided.

 

By calling NEW witnesses, the Senate would be opening the door to a parade of similar shoddy incomplete impeachment work done by the House.  If the House doesn't do their work, the Senate won't do it for them.  

 

Following the rule of law is important -- and in the eyes of even Democrats, precedent is extremely important and is part of the rule of law. 

 

Ask Democrats about precedent in Roe v. Wade. 

 

However, like everything else in their world, precedent only matters if they agree with the particular precedent.

It appears that you're wrong. As I can't quote the relevant part of this article, the content disproving your assertion about not calling NEW witnesses for presidential impeachment trials is there. Also of course most of the precedent for impeachment trials doesn't involve presidents and in some cases new witnesses were called for those as well.

 

So anyway as you're pushing the precedent thing, witnesses have been called in ALL impeachment trials in history in the senate, and in some cases those have been NEW witnesses.

 

So feel free to retract your previous assertion if you like.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/01/09/senate-has-conducted-15-impeachment-trials-it-heard-witnesses-every-one/

 

Quote

The Senate has conducted 15 impeachment trials. It heard witnesses in every one.

 

[heybruce]

6 hours ago, riclag said:

And you have been told before on numerous occasions the facts!

No blackmail,no push and normal ! You deal in presumptions,I'm stating facts!

 

And you have been told before on numerous occasions the fact that there is nothing to be gained by Zelensky by stating that Trump was pressuring him, and a great deal to be lost.  His country's future was a stake, of course he'd lie to save it.