My Kbank Experience

[geronimo]

So, as you all probably know, since Jan 15th, the old ATM cards (with no chip) no longer work, so I prepared to go to my local Kbank branch to procure a new one. Being a very old hand here, I know that doing anything even remotely official requires that you have absolutely every piece of paper imaginable, each with 5 copies, all signed by every living relative you have! So, this guy was prepared, I had:

 

• My passport (photocopied the main and visa pages)
• My Bankbook
• My ATM card

So, the wife and I drive to the bank and get a ticket and within a few minutes, our number comes up and we are escorted to a desk.

 

Being fluent in Thai, I don't need wifey for translation, but she just happened to be with me as we had another appointment after doing this, so I sit there while she types away on her keyboard, occasionally looking at the screen. I am then handed a bundle of papers, all with crosses where I have to sign.

 

I politely mention that I'm only here to get a new ATM card, not to apply for a mortgage, she smiles and gestures for me to sign. I sign all of them.

 

Then she looks at my passport, then the screen, then my passport, then the screen, then she tells me that the passport number on her screen doesn't match the one I have here.

 

I told her that was because I opened the account 22 years ago and naturally, I have a different passport now. She then disappeared (not literally, although I wish she had vanished in a puff of smoke) only to return and tell me she has to see the old passport before she can continue.

 

I proceeded to show her my Thai driving licence, telling her that I also have the bankbook, which, along with my passport, is surely sufficient evidence to prove that I am, in fact, the person I say I am.

 

She shakes her head and tells me I have to go home and bring the 22-year old passport to her.

Realising it is pointless getting upset, I smile and tell her that’s exactly what I will do then, and I drive all the way home, find the said passport and duly return, leaving wifey in the bank, as surety.

I am now sat in front of her yet again, and the new ATM card process continues …….

 

More paper work to fill in …..

At this point, I decide it is time to get a little vocal,

(Thai language)

“Excuse me, did you know about Thailand and 4.0?”

“Yes” She replied.

“So, what’s with all this paperwork then? I don’t want to borrow any money, or open a new account, I only wish for you to replace my ATM card with one that has a chip in, because this one (I waved it around) no longer works.”

By now I have the attention of everyone in the bank.

“Do you realise how many trees have been destroyed in order for you to give me a new ATM card?” I enquired.

She squirmed in her seat slightly, feeling a little uncomfortable.

I was warming up now ……

I then decided to ask the for the manager …..

 

She duly arrived,

“Yes Sir, what can I do for you?”

I asked her if I was a Thai person and wanted to get a new ATM card, would I have to go through all this, which included having to go home and dig up a 22 year old passport”

“Yes’ She replied.

I then asked the clerk if I could have all the papers I had recently signed, which she duly gave me. I counted them out loud

“…. 11. 12 13. Thirteen sheets of paper I have just had to sign in order to get the new ATM card, which I still haven’t got, how can this be?”

“Well, it is for our records” She replied.

“Well then, you must have a huge warehouse full of paper then.” I concluded.

“Yes, we have 3 rooms upstairs that we keep our paperwork in.” She answered.

I then pointed to all the computer screens,

“What do you use all these for, Facebook?”

She giggled.

“I was under the impression that Thailand was aiming to be a 4.0 nation, one that is fully digitalized, yet from what I’ve seen here, Thailand is around 0.4”

Chuckles of laughter from the audience ….

At this point, the good wife stood up and walked out of the bank (she doesn’t like to make a fuss)

I then decided to go the whole nine yards ….

“I have had a bank account here for over 20 years, and the last time I was here, I wanted to open another account, but was told I must have a work permit to that, is that correct?”

“Yes Sir, it is” came the confident reply.

“But I am retired and therefore not working”

“Aaah, then you can’t open a bank account”

“So, when I apply for long-term visa, why do Immigration tell me I must deposit 800,000 baht in Thai bank account, if I am not allowed to open a bank account without a work permit?”

She then excuses herself and rushes into a corner and gets her phone out and starts talking to someone.

She then returns, informing me that she has asked her boss about this.

I look round at the waiting people and they are glued to the proceedings, almost all have missed their numbers to do their banking business, preferring instead to watch this!

Her phone rings, she answers ……

“Actually Sir, you can open another bank account” She exclaimed.

“Good Lord! How wonderful!! If getting a new ATM card is anything to go by, I shall have to sign hundreds of documents then.”

Crowd giggle

“All we need from you is your passport and proof that you are retired” she replies.

“Proof that I am retired? How do I do that?” I enquire.

“I don’t know Sir” Came the reply.

“If I don’t have proof that I am retired, can I still open the account?”

“No”

“Would a signed letter from my wife and two children confirming that I am retired be enough?”

“No”

“How about a video call to my 87 year old mother in England?”

“No”

“What proof do you need”

“I don’t know, just need proof you are not working”

“But earlier on, you wanted proof that I AM working, now you want proof that I’m not?”

“Yes”

“How many pieces of paper do I have to sign to close my account?”

“Only one”

“OK here’s my bankbook and my old ATM card. I wish to withdraw my money and close this account” I handed her the stuff.

She rushes off ….

I turn my attention to the people watching …..

“Do you people have any idea how hard it is for a foreigner to stay in your country? When I do my marriage visa, I have to give them photos of me and my wife in every room of the house, a map to my house, 30 copies of every document I have, plus I must have 400,000 baht in my bank.”

The manager returns with my money, I take it and thank her profusely.

As I leave, I receive a round of applause from the audience …

As I get outside the bank, I now have to deal with the wife’s wrath …

“You’ve done it again! Embarrassed me in front of all those people”

I smile and walk past her …

“Where are you going?” She asks

“Oh I’m off to get drunk” came the reply.

“But it’s only 11:30 in the morning?” She replies.

I get in the car and drive off.

 

 

[CharlieH]

The land of inconsistency, I got a letter from KBank to change my card. I went in, with bankbook and passport.

Showed the letter handed over docs, signed ONE piece of paper and she wanted to charge me for the card? I said nope, it's your system that requires the change not me.

I then asked for the Manager, not available was the response, I want an appointment to see the Manager, don't know when he'll be here !! I replied "nonsense, I'll go wait in his office then''' ? realising I wasn't going to give in, she gets up and walks over to an older lady who returned with her, signed a piece of paper and pronounced "no charge sir"and gave me the card and I left. 20 minutes and all done.

 

 

[geronimo]

1 minute ago, CharlieH said:

The land of inconsistency, I got a letter from KBank to change my card. I went in, with bankbook and passport.

Showed the letter handed over docs, signed ONE piece of paper and she wanted to charge me for the card? I said nope, it's your system that requires the change not me.

I then asked for the Manager, not available was the response, I want an appointment to see the Manager, don't know when he'll be here !! I replied "nonsense, I'll go wait in his office then''' ? realising I wasn't going to give in, she gets up and walks over to an older lady who returned with her, signed a piece of paper and pronounced "no charge sir"and gave me the card and I left. 20 minutes and all done.

 

 

I must have been a nasty xxxx in my previous life. On reflection, a letter from TVF confirming my POTY status would've cleared this up!

[BritManToo]

36 minutes ago, geronimo said:

Then she looks at my passport, then the screen, then my passport, then the screen, then she tells me that the passport number on her screen doesn't match the one I have here.

Encountered this problem yesterday.

BKB VISA card stopped working, got a new BKB Mastercard, no problems at all. Didn't work when I tried to book a room with AirBnB.

 

TMB VISA still works, so I thought I'd get the TMB phone app and forget BKB. Passport numbers don't match.

Call into TMB, can only change passport number at original branch, drive to original branch, about 10 photocopies to sign.

These have to be posted to the main office and the change authorised, please call back next week to get you phone app working.

Edited January 28, 2020 by BritManToo

[geronimo]

1 minute ago, BritManToo said:

Encountered this problem yesterday.

BKB VISA card stopped working, got a new BKB Mastercard, no problems at all. Didn't work when I tried to book a room with AirBnB.

 

TMB VISA still works, so I thought I'd get get the TMB phone app and forget BKB. Passport numbers don't match.

Call into TMB, can only change passport number at original branch, drive to original branch, about 10 photocopies to sign.

These have to be posted to the main office and the change authorised, please call back next week to get you phone app working.

Only in Thailand eh?

[BritManToo]

11 minutes ago, geronimo said:

Only in Thailand eh?

Noticed on my BKB phone app the new Mastercard daily spending limit was set at 0bht (why?).

Went along to the local Branch, and asked them why they had issued me a Debit card with a ZERO baht spending limit.

After 30 minutes of typing and phone calls to head office, my daily spending limit on the phone app reads 20,000bht.

I'm hoping it'll work now.

 

My negotiating skills weren't as good as CharlieH, I had to pay 400bht for the new Mastercard. 

Edited January 28, 2020 by BritManToo

[samsensam]

 

banks love paper and signatures. there is, without doubt, a lot of paperwork involved when you want to do anything other than take money out or put money in, though even this can involve signing odd bits of paper. it has occurred to me many times the amount of paper being stored somewhere... though to give my local bank staff credit they needed to dig out the receipt for an international money transfer that had taken place months earlier and they produced the piece of paper extremely quickly. though it could probably have been done even quicker, and in a more environmentally friendly way, using technology.

[Old Croc]

I never use my K bank card in ATM's, I do all transactions on line.

A couple of days ago I purchased a product from Microsoft and had trouble getting payment through. I blamed that company, but later noticed about three unexplained deductions of 30 baht. Too small to cause concern, but puzzling.    

Perhaps it has something to do with this change.  I never received a letter from the bank, although I changed my address about 8 years ago and perhaps the bank doesn't have my updated one.  I, probably naively, thought the bank would communicate with me electronically.

I wonder about my chances of getting an updated card from the branch in Chalong Tesco where I have obtained my Immigration letters for years, or if I have to venture into the wilds of Patong where my original bank festers in the mire? 

[ThomasThBKK]

Funny, i just got a new ATM card with a single signatures at KBANK but then i wanted bank statements to proof my address to an offshore entity.

And they print it out and and the street is missing and they just don't want to freaking understand that a proof of address needs to have the STREETNAME ON THERE.

 

After 1 hour of fiddling in their computer system and me not going away and insisting on it being done i was finally allowed to fix it myself in their goddamn computer, they simply couldn't comprehend that writing the street name after the house number was an easy fix that got me what i wanted.

 

What a giant waste of my time. Thanks for nothing kbank.

[Sheryl]

The problem is that all Thais have an ID card for life, the number of which never changes, and all systems are set up for this.

 

When a foreigner's passport number is used in an ID field there will always be problems down the line about no longer having the same passport number.

 

I went through exactly what you described just to use my bonus points at a Tops supermarket. Three times to date.

 

Best solution is to get a Thai ID card (pink, for foreigners) as that will give you your own 13 digit ID number for life.

 

But of course changing over to that for your accounts will involve some hoop jumping (and you will have to have the old passport with you).

 

Not true that the only way to do it is to close the account and open a new one, by the way, though this is what staff who don't know how to do it will try to tell you. At that point call the Bangkok customer service line and let them walk the staff through it.

 

Worth it in the long run.

 

They don't know how to change an ID number i the computer because the situation never arises with a Thai.

[asiaexpat]

49 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

The problem is that all Thais have an ID card for life, the number of which never changes, and all systems are set up for this.

 

When a foreigner's passport number is used in an ID field there will always be problems down the line about no longer having the same passport number.

 

I went through exactly what you described just to use my bonus points at a Tops supermarket. Three times to date.

 

Best solution is to get a Thai ID card (pink, for foreigners) as that will give you your own 13 digit ID number for life.

 

But of course changing over to that for your accounts will involve some hoop jumping (and you will have to have the old passport with you).

 

Not true that the only way to do it is to close the account and open a new one, by the way, though this is what staff who don't know how to do it will try to tell you. At that point call the Bangkok customer service line and let them walk the staff through it.

 

Worth it in the long run.

 

They don't know how to change an ID number i the computer because the situation never arises with a Thai.

Sheryl has had better luck than I have had in Bangkok with regard to changing bank account from Passport Number to Pink ID card number. BBL, KBank an LH Bank all tell me "can not." I did report change of passport as they occurred. I will try again some day.

[SteveK]

I had a similar experience in K Bank when trying to open a Thai bank account. My Thai is not fluent enough so spoke in English. They told me they would only open me an account if I had a work permit, something which all branches seem to say nowadays. I explained that immigration insist that I have 400k in a Thai bank account, so what was I supposed to do? She just said she didn't know, a very frustrating experience. It seems like a deliberate catch-22 scenario.

 

I now know damn well that the branch manager can open an account for almost anyone, if they want to. It wouldn't surprise me if they are under some kind of directive to do their best to prevent any foreigners from opening accounts under the guise of some kind of money-laundering paranoia. If they think foreigners are capable of laundering money through their BTS card, god knows what they suspect them of doing with a bank account!

 

I suppose quickly putting the entire 500 baht that you made from some dastardly, nefarious means onto your BTS card is a great way to hide all those ill-gotten gains from the authorities ????

Edited January 28, 2020 by SteveK

[geronimo]

38 minutes ago, asiaexpat said:

Sheryl has had better luck than I have had in Bangkok with regard to changing bank account from Passport Number to Pink ID card number. BBL, KBank an LH Bank all tell me "can not." I did report change of passport as they occurred. I will try again some day.

Yes, take it from me, it's so much fun!!!!!

[Samuel Smith]

Got my new card from k-bank a couple of weeks ago.  They updated my new passport number on the computer, without any problems or having to show the old one.  They wanted 200 bt for the card.  I explained I'd already paid annual fee for card.   Got 16 bt refund, cash in hand, for what was remaining before handing over 200 for the new one ????

 

[geronimo]

1 minute ago, Samuel Smith said:

Got my new card from k-bank a couple of weeks ago.  They updated my new passport number on the computer, without any problems or having to show the old one.  They wanted 200 bt for the card.  I explained I'd already paid annual fee for card.   Got 16 bt refund, cash in hand, for what was remaining before handing over 200 for the new one ????

 

So, every single one of us has had a different experience! The banks are taking lessons from Immigration ....

[geronimo]

I did forget to mention that the getting drunk made it all worthwhile ....

[pmarlin]

It has to be that you never informed them when you got a new passport. Just got a new ATM card at my Kbank branch in Bangkok and  just signed a couple of forms picked out my card and was out of there. Been using Kbank since Jan 2011. I also use Bangkok bank and in my opinion Kbank has better customer service.

Edited January 28, 2020 by pmarlin

[geronimo]

1 minute ago, pmarlin said:

It has to be that you never informed them when you got a new passport. Just got a new ATM card at my Kbank branch in Bangkok and  just signed a couple of forms picked out my card and was out of there. Been using Kbank since Jan 2011. I also use Bangkok band and in my opinion Kbank has better customer service.

Informing banks when I get a new passport has never been on my list of stuff to do, but you are, of course, right Sir!

[Samuel Smith]

And while I was waiting, the Thais were handing over 200 bt for the cards, without querying the fee.

[richard_smith237]

3 hours ago, geronimo said:

Crowd giggle

I bet they didn’t... 

 

They just would have seen a foreigner making a nuisance of himself !!

 

I get the Ops frustration, but he’s not going to change systematic bureaucracy by giving an innocent bank teller some hassle. 

 

If your passport is not the same one has the passport you opened your account with, you have to change that first - it can be done quite readily (in my experience and I know mileage varies) 

 

Life is simpler, less frustrating and we generally make less of an as$ of ourselves when coloring in within the lines. 

 

 

Edited January 28, 2020 by richard_smith237

[geronimo]

2 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

I bet they didn’t... 

 

 

 

 

They wanted to .....

[richard_smith237]

13 minutes ago, geronimo said:

16 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

I bet they didn’t... 

 

They wanted to .....

Giggled at you or with ???

 

The Banking systems in Thailand have many bureaucratic systems and can be incredibly frustrating, in any country. 

 

In the UK (UK account) I had to wait for the Manager to be present before I could transfer GBP£2000 into a friends account !!! I had to wait 30 mins, I couldn’t believe it - the reason was because they didn’t recognize me at the branch !!! 

 

I’ve encountered: Delays getting the Yellow House Book, after getting all the documentation I had to wait a month for an appointment and then watch the girl at the Amphur take 2 hours to fill out a ridiculous pile of paperwork. 

I’ve yet to apply for my driving license renewal but have learned that the Yellow House book may or may not be viable as proof of address (inconsistent information), I’ve also learned that I may not get a 5 year license as I’m now not on a Non-Immigrant Visa). 

In the UAE recently I couldn’t get my IDP (based on my UAE driving license) until the afternoon shift started at 2pm, so I had to wait 3 hours and go back to the Road Transport Office. 

I can’t get an IDP from the UK (based on my UK driving license) as I’m not there. 

I may not be able to get an IDP (based on my renewed Thai license, when I get it renewed) as I may only be able to renew to a 2 year temp license (and don’t think they issue IDP’s for temp licenses). 

In the UK I needed extra documentation for the renewal of my passport (as I hold two passports). 

 

Life is full of these stupid, nonsensical issues, they come at you from every angle.... we can’t protest everyone, we just have to roll with it and take it in our stride and move on with a smile.

 

By closing your bank account in protest you’re just moving your frustration onto the next bank and probably creating extra work for yourself. 

The girl at the bank doesn’t care, she’s probably happy you closed your account and may not have to deal with your rants about visa etc.... 

 

That said, I bet the beer tasted good !!!

 

 

Edited January 28, 2020 by richard_smith237

[geronimo]

1 minute ago, richard_smith237 said:

Giggled at you or with ???

 

The Banking system as many bureaucratic systems can be incredibly frustrating, in any country. 

 

I’ve encountered: Delays getting the Yellow House Book, after getting all the documentation I had to wait a month for an appointment and then watch the girl at the Amphur take 2 hours to fill out a ridiculous pile of paperwork. 

I’ve yet to apply for my driving license renewal but have learned that the Yellow House book may or may not be viable as proof of address (inconsistent information), I’ve also learned that I may not get a 5 year license as I’m now not on a Non-Immigrant Visa). 

In the UAE recently I couldn’t get my IDP (based on my UAE driving license) until the afternoon shift started at 2pm, so I had to wait 3 hours and go back to the Road Transport Office. 

I can’t get an IDP from the UK (based on my UK driving license) as I’m not there. 

I may not be able to get an IDP (based on my renewed Thai license, when I get it renewed) as I may only be able to renew to a 2 year temp license (and don’t think they issue IDP’s for temp licenses). 

In the UK I needed extra documentation for the renewal of my passport (as I hold two passports). 

 

Life is full of these stupid, nonsensical issues, they come at you from every angle.... we can’t protest everyone, we just have to roll with it and take it in our stride and move on with a smile.

 

By closing your bank account in protest you’re just moving your frustration onto the next bank and probably creating extra work for yourself. 

The girl at the bank doesn’t care, she’s probably happy you closed your account and may not have to deal with your rants about visa etc.... 

 

That said, I bet the beer tasted good !!!

 

 

It was gin actually ...... and I have accounts all over the place.

[poohy]

HI there

i admire your resolve the beer must have tasted good

I would have been buggered on the first request finding a 22 yo passport!

NOW

Slight digression i paid my lecky bill at 7/11 yesterday listening to the tripe on here its a no no cannot anymore

 

Well yes you can but i had to press the green  button on the card machine God knows why i was paying in cash...anyway it worked

After 20 years here i've learnt the simplest things can go horrendously wrong and what you think is impossible is often easy

 

Main thing is for my sanity i leave thailand for a few months it helps me and stops many thais from certain murder

[orientalist]

3 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

Life is full of these stupid, nonsensical issues, they come at you from every angle.... we can’t protest everyone, we just have to roll with it and take it in our stride and move on with a smile.

 

By closing your bank account in protest you’re just moving your frustration onto the next bank and probably creating extra work for yourself. 

The girl at the bank doesn’t care, she’s probably happy you closed your account and may not have to deal with your rants about visa etc.... 

 

Agreed. I've had horrendous problems with various Thai banks over the past 35 years, but I don't close an account unless the overall service is terrible. Most recently CIMB Thai locked me out of their online banking and changed their app to Thai-language only, but with patient insistence both problems were sorted out. The less said about Krung Thai's smaller branches the better! My K-bank branch is a small one and they often aren't on the ball. Last year in January I spent an hour with them (and calls to head office) registering my Tax-ID so they wouldn't withhold tax on my savings account interest, but I see in December they still withheld it (sigh). When I got a new passport I informed them of the number and they assured me the change applied to all services and accounts, but I found out later it didn't. But K-bank's android app is the best out there so I definitely won't being closing the account.

 

 The gf loses her bank book and debit card roughly once every 6 months. With SCB she has to file a report with the police to get a new book, with K-bank she doesn't. So that's a big plus for us. We'll probably close the SCB account soon.

[geronimo]

1 minute ago, orientalist said:

 

Agreed. I've had horrendous problems with various Thai banks over the past 35 years, but I don't close an account unless the overall service is terrible. Most recently CIMB Thai locked me out of their online banking and changed their app to Thai-language only, but with patient insistence both problems were sorted out. The less said about Krung Thai's smaller branches the better! My K-bank branch is a small one and they often aren't on the ball. Last year in January I spent an hour with them (and calls to head office) registering my Tax-ID so they wouldn't withhold tax on my savings account interest, but I see in December they still withheld it (sigh). When I got a new passport I informed them of the number and they assured me the change applied to all services and accounts, but I found out later it didn't. But K-bank's android app is the best out there so I definitely won't being closing the account.

 

 The gf loses her bank book and debit card roughly once every 6 months. With SCB she has to file a report with the police to get a new book, with K-bank she doesn't. So that's a big plus for us. We'll probably close the SCB account soon.

Never mind, we'll all be using our Bitcoin wallets soon .....

[BritManToo]

59 minutes ago, pmarlin said:

It has to be that you never informed them when you got a new passport. Just got a new ATM card at my Kbank branch in Bangkok and  just signed a couple of forms picked out my card and was out of there. Been using Kbank since Jan 2011. I also use Bangkok bank and in my opinion Kbank has better customer service.

Don't know about that.

I got a new VISA card from TMB after my last passport renewal two years back, did all the forms back then, but yesterday they still had my old passport number in their records. I didn't think  it worth asking how had I renewed my VISA card without showing them my new passport.

Some wars just can't be won.

Edited January 28, 2020 by BritManToo

[richard_smith237]

I’m sure sometimes when I need to ‘ski off-piste’ and I have to sit down at the Bank, the Phoneshop or some other place involving a little bureaucratic legwork their is an almost tangible look of trepidation on the face of the person dealing with me.

 

Part of this may be language related due to my imperfect Thai, another part of this is that they (the other person dealing with me) may recently have been subject to a ‘Geronimo-esque’ tirade and the thought of another foreigner attempting to force logic out of an illogical system is too much for them to comfortably handle.

 

The only thing I find that works is explaining in small steps what you want, and being as calm as possible. 

I also find that if you come across someone with a ’cannot’ attitude, i.e. the type of idiot who’s first response is ‘cannot’ before they even truly know what you need, then we need to be dealing with someone else. 

 

------

 

Story time: 

I was once trying to withdraw 200k (or some larger figure) from my account. My UK Passport was at the Embassy (I can’t remember why), I had a receipt from the Embassy that they were holding my passport. 

I also had my second (UK) passport with me. The Manager wanted to see the passport I had registered with my account. He wouldn’t let me withdraw my money. I had him call up the head office, I spoke with them, they were fine with showing a second passport, they spoke with the branch manager, he still wouldn’t let me withdraw some money. 

I could have gone to the ATM machine in the branch and made 10 consecutive withdrawals but that would have been too time consuming. 

I went to another branch down the road and had no issues withdrawing my money. 

Lesson: that branch manager was an idiot. I avoid that branch now. 

 

 

 

 

 

[talahtnut]

1 hour ago, pmarlin said:

It has to be that you never informed them when you got a new passport. Just got a new ATM card at my Kbank branch in Bangkok and  just signed a couple of forms picked out my card and was out of there. Been using Kbank since Jan 2011. I also use Bangkok bank and in my opinion Kbank has better customer service.

Yes, I had a surprising experience with K bank, on

transferring money from UK account, I had a phone

call from K bank in the afternoon suggesting the transferred amount had reached the peak rate

would I like it converted now.

Haven't used ATM since 1990 when it was B20

a go.

After reading all the scary posts, and other things

considered, I'm thinking of a nice holiday in UK.

 

[Sheryl]

2 hours ago, asiaexpat said:

Sheryl has had better luck than I have had in Bangkok with regard to changing bank account from Passport Number to Pink ID card number. BBL, KBank an LH Bank all tell me "can not." I did report change of passport as they occurred. I will try again some day.

 

"Cannot" = they don't know how and are unwilling to ask someone. Call HQ helpline and have them explain to the staff.