Britain's row with Greece over treasures spills into Brexit tensions

[JonnyF]

26 minutes ago, Victornoir said:

You have to update yourself boy, that was before. Now the UK is a third country which must return what it stole.

Calm down Son.

 

Becoming a third country has no bearing on the legal ownership of these statues or their return.

[Henryford]

Boris we give in to all the EUSSR's demands to allow us to keep buying their BMWs and Mercs.

[RuamRudy]

5 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Flew right over your head, didn't it.

 

The point is the return of some old statues is completed unrelated to the UK/EU trade deal. 

Not at all, but after decades of stalemate and intransigence from the UK, I can fully understand why Greece would use any opportunity possible to seek redress. 

 

It may only be indirectly related, but the chickens are coming home to roost. 

[Andrew65]

As if lots of Brits give a hoot about the Elgin Marbles?!
 

Also, have Ireland, Monaco etc been branded tax havens, as they are?

Edited February 19, 2020 by Andrew65

[Bluespunk]

5 hours ago, SheungWan said:

No doubt the Spanish will additionally throw in the return of Gibralter while we are at it. That was presumably 'stolen' as well.

It was indeed. 

[Bluespunk]

5 hours ago, Vigilante said:

Well, other avenues were tried for 30 years

They didn't work.

 

This one won’t either. 

Edited February 19, 2020 by Bluespunk

[Bluespunk]

2 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Providing all other EU member states and associates return art and antiquities stolen from former colonies, stolen during wars and occupations of other countries or received stolen goods held by third party safe haven countries. 

 

 

I have no problem with that, though that doesn’t mean the uk shouldn’t go first. It being such an obvious act of theft and all. 

[sanemax]

2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

If , when you are squatting in your ex-girlfriend's house, you took her 60" TV back to your own place without her permission, would she not be justified in demanding it's return?

She would yes , but this topic isnt about that situation 

[sanemax]

6 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

I have no problem with that, though that doesn’t mean the uk shouldn’t go first. It being such an obvious act of theft and all. 

Did the UK come to a legal agreement with the Ottoman Empire to acquire those marbles ?

[Bluespunk]

3 minutes ago, sanemax said:

Did the UK come to a legal agreement with the Ottoman Empire to acquire those marbles ?

Dealing with an occupying power does not grant the right to steal the treasures of the occupied, hint- the marbles are Greek, not Turkish. 

Edited February 19, 2020 by Bluespunk

[sawadee1947]

Well, it will start with those marbles and might end with all those gems the Brits robbed from their former colonies.????.

India should be on alert. 

[sanemax]

10 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

Dealing with an occupying power does not grant the right to steal the treasures of the occupied, hint- the marbles are Greek, not Turkish. 

The Ottomans were the legitimate rulers at the time 

[Bluespunk]

1 minute ago, sanemax said:

The Ottomans were the legitimate rulers at the time 

No they weren’t. 
 

Controlling other countries through imperial conquest and power is not legitimate except in the eyes of the occupiers. 

Edited February 19, 2020 by Bluespunk

[sanemax]

7 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

No they weren’t. 
 

Controlling other countries through imperial conquest and power is not legitimate except in the eyes of the occupiers. 

Is that your opinion or a legal opinion ?

[Gulfsailor]

10 minutes ago, sanemax said:

The Ottomans were the legitimate rulers at the time 

By that logic, the EU could have pillaged Westminster and auction of the Crown Jewels before Brexit, as the Brexit argument was that the EU were legitimately ruling Britain.

[Bluespunk]

11 minutes ago, sanemax said:

Is that your opinion or a legal opinion ?

It is illegal to steal from another and sell it on. 

As to the laws regarding illegal occupation of another country google is your friend. 
 

https://www.diakonia.se/globalassets/documents/ihl/ihl-resources-center/fact-sheets/occupation-under-international-law.pdf

 

https://www.icrc.org/en/doc/resources/documents/misc/634kfc.htm

 

Note the requirements in adhering to the previous laws of the occupied and not acting in a manner contrary to their well being. 

 

Edited February 19, 2020 by Bluespunk

[sanemax]

2 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

It is illegal to steal from another and sell it on. 

As to the laws regarding illegal occupation of another country google is your friend. 
 

https://www.diakonia.se/globalassets/documents/ihl/ihl-resources-center/fact-sheets/occupation-under-international-law.pdf

 

https://www.icrc.org/en/doc/resources/documents/misc/634kfc.htm

 

What were the laws at the time when the UK acquired the marbles ?

Were the Ottomans there legitimately or illegal occupiers ? 

[Bluespunk]

2 minutes ago, sanemax said:

What were the laws at the time when the UK acquired the marbles ?

Were the Ottomans there legitimately or illegal occupiers ? 

Read the documents I posted, particularly on the requirements on behaviour of the occupiers.

 

The marbles are Greek and should be returned to Greece. 

Edited February 19, 2020 by Bluespunk
Spelling error

[sanemax]

11 minutes ago, Gulfsailor said:

By that logic, the EU could have pillaged Westminster and auction of the Crown Jewels before Brexit, as the Brexit argument was that the EU were legitimately ruling Britain.

Lets not get confusing making comparisons and lets stick to the subject in question 

[sanemax]

2 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

Read the documents I posted, particularly on the requirements on behaviour of the occupiers.

 

The marbles are Greek and should be returned to Greece. 

Were the Ottomans illegal occupiers or the legitimate rulers at the time ?

Does the UK have the legal right to keep the marbles ?

[Bluespunk]

2 minutes ago, sanemax said:

Were the Ottomans illegal occupiers or the legitimate rulers at the time ?

Does the UK have the legal right to keep the marbles ?

They did not have the right to sell the treasures of the country they occupied as the documents I posted make clear. 
 

Unless the Greeks willing requested ottoman overlordship I can’t see how the occupation can be considered legal. I have answered this question several times now, not to your liking but tough. 

[bristolboy]

15 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

It is illegal to steal from another and sell it on. 

As to the laws regarding illegal occupation of another country google is your friend. 
 

https://www.diakonia.se/globalassets/documents/ihl/ihl-resources-center/fact-sheets/occupation-under-international-law.pdf

 

https://www.icrc.org/en/doc/resources/documents/misc/634kfc.htm

 

Note the requirements in adhering to the previous laws of the occupied and not acting in a manner contrary to their well being. 

 

As much as I might sympathize with the moral position of the Greeks, the fact is that the Ottomans ruled Greece as a part of their empire after conquering Constantinople and the Byzantine Empire. The Ottomans held it for almost 400 years.  Greece was governed as a province just like any other province in the Ottoman empire.

 

[Bluespunk]

1 minute ago, bristolboy said:

As much as I might sympathize with the moral position of the Greeks, the fact is that the Ottomans ruled Greece as a part of their empire after conquering Constantinople and the Byzantine Empire. The Ottomans held it for almost 400 years.  Greece was governed as a province just like any other province in the Ottoman empire.

 

Doesn’t make the selling of the marbles legal in the world we now live in. They should be returned. 
 

oh and sanemax the above by me does not mean I accept the ottoman occupation of Greece as legitimate. 

[sanemax]

4 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

They did not have the right to sell the treasures of the country they occupied as the documents I posted make clear. 
 

Unless the Greeks willing requested ottoman overlordship I can’t see how the occupation can be considered legal. I have answered this question several times now, not to your liking but tough. 

Although I am more interested in what the law said at the time, rather than your opinion . 

The documents that you posted were made hundreds of years after said incident, so, they are not legally valid in this instance 

[bristolboy]

Just now, Bluespunk said:

Doesn’t make the selling of the marbles legal in the world we now live in. They should be returned. 
 

oh and sanemax the above by me does not mean I accept the ottoman occupation of Greece as legitimate. 

Keep in mind that when the Turks conquered the Byzantine Empire, Greece was just a province of that empire. Not an independent country. So unless by Greece you mean the entire Byzantine empire, you don't have much of a case. Unless you think that the Turks ought to evacuate Istanbul and points north south east and west.

[Bluespunk]

Just now, sanemax said:

Although I am more interested in what the law said at the time, rather than your opinion . 

The documents that you posted were made hundreds of years after said incident, so, they are not legally valid in this instance 

I disagree.

 

The marbles were part of the Parthenon and therefore Greek not Turkish.
 

They should be returned to their rightful owners. 
 

Greece. 

[Bluespunk]

2 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Keep in mind that when the Turks conquered the Byzantine Empire, Greece was just a province of that empire. Not an independent country. So unless by Greece you mean the entire Byzantine empire, you don't have much of a case. Unless you think that the Turks ought to evacuate Istanbul and points north south east and west.

The Elgin marbles were from the Parthenon which is Greek in origin. The marbles are therefore Greek and should be returned to their rightful owners. 

[evadgib]

I'm curious as to how many earthquakes, wars have occurred since Lord Elgin stepped in that might have resulted in their loss or destruction anyway.

[bristolboy]

6 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

The Elgin marbles were from the Parthenon which is Greek in origin. The marbles are therefore Greek and should be returned to their rightful owners. 

Actually, the Elgin marbles are Athenian in origin. And at the time they were created there was no country called Greece. Just a bunch of city-states that spent a lot of time at war with each other. In fact, there really wasn't a country called Greece until the 1820's - over 2000 years later. And while modern day Greeks speak a successor language to what the ancient Athenians spoke, it's vastly different and wouldn't be at all intelligible to the ancients. What's more, the Ancient Athenians were pagans who did things like wrestle naked, composed love poems to boys, and had an economy based on slave labor. Modern Greeks are mostly members of the orthodox church which isn't a big fan of naked men wrestling in public, love poems to boys, or slavery. 

[sanemax]

15 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

The Elgin marbles were from the Parthenon which is Greek in origin. The marbles are therefore Greek and should be returned to their rightful owners. 

If they were acquired legally by the British museum, the BM are the rightful owners