Make us ventilators to fight coronavirus, UK government asks manufacturers

[snoop1130]

Make us ventilators to fight coronavirus, UK government asks manufacturers

 

FILE PHOTO: British Prime Minister Boris Johnson holds a news conference addressing the government's response to the coronavirus outbreak, at Downing Street in London, Britain March 12, 2020. REUTERS/Simon Dawson/Pool

 

LONDON (Reuters) - British Prime Minister Boris Johnson will ask manufacturers to retool production to start making specialist health equipment including ventilators and will look at using hotels as emergency hospitals to cope with the coronavirus outbreak.

 

Britain has taken a distinctly different approach to tackling coronavirus from European countries such as Italy, Spain and France which have imposed stringent lockdowns to try to slow the spread of the disease.

 

“The prime minister will speak to British manufacturers including Unipart Group to ask them to support production of essential medical equipment for the NHS,” a Downing Street

spokesman said.

 

“He will stress the vital role of Britain’s manufacturers in preparing the country for a significant spread of coronavirus and call on them to step up and support the nationwide effort to fight the virus.”

 

Unipart Group declined further comment. Johnson is due to give a news conference later on Monday.

 

“We’ve got high quality engineering in this country and we want anybody who has the manufacturing capability to turn to a manufacturer of ventilators to do that,” Health Secretary Matt Hancock said on Sunday.

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2020-03-16

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[thaibeachlovers]

Sooooo, they make loads of ventilators, then where are all the nurses to operate all the new ventilators going to come from? Does the government think loads of nurses qualified to operate ventilators are just hanging around waiting for the call?

[nausea]

You can always count on the British to be pragmatic. I think they're making space for more funerals as well. 

[thaibeachlovers]

23 minutes ago, nausea said:

You can always count on the British to be pragmatic. I think they're making space for more funerals as well. 

If it becomes like Italy they'd better.

I worked in the NHS for 10 years and if they think that organisation is going to save everyone they have a shock coming, IMO. I did agency around many London hospitals and some of them had barely enough qualified nurses to run the wards, let alone cope with hundreds of infectious patients.

[billd766]

21 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Sooooo, they make loads of ventilators, then where are all the nurses to operate all the new ventilators going to come from? Does the government think loads of nurses qualified to operate ventilators are just hanging around waiting for the call?

Do you have any better ideas? 

 

At least the government is doing something instead of sitting on a website in Thailand finding fault.

 

Do you not think that most western countries are doing their best in whatever way they can? Covid-19 is a relatively new virus and is impacting so much of the world and the skills and equipment are not available in large enough quantities yet.

 

IMHO it is better to have equipment in quantity to spare (which can be lent out or sold to other countries) and not have enough skilled staff (who can be trained) rather than a surplus of staff and no equipment.

[URMySunshine]

1 minute ago, billd766 said:

Do you have any better ideas? 

 

At least the government is doing something instead of sitting on a website in Thailand finding fault.

 

Do you not think that most western countries are doing their best in whatever way they can? Covid-19 is a relatively new virus and is impacting so much of the world and the skills and equipment are not available in large enough quantities yet.

 

IMHO it is better to have equipment in quantity to spare (which can be lent out or sold to other countries) and not have enough skilled staff (who can be trained) rather than a surplus of staff and no equipment.

23rd January I called this out on this forum as to how life changing it would be and now they ask publically for ventilators. Beyond bad. 

[Crazy Alex]

2 minutes ago, URMySunshine said:

23rd January I called this out on this forum as to how life changing it would be and now they ask publically for ventilators. Beyond bad. 

So they should just shut up about what they think their needs are because of what some anonymous poster on an internet bulletin board said on January 23? Beyond bad indeed. Blown way past bad and firmly in delusional and hilarious territory.

[DeeMak9]

38 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Sooooo, they make loads of ventilators, then where are all the nurses to operate all the new ventilators going to come from? Does the government think loads of nurses qualified to operate ventilators are just hanging around waiting for the call?

Whats your suggestion? To not make them at all? Or did you expect him to ask the manufacturers to produce nursing robots as well?

[Crazy Alex]

40 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Sooooo, they make loads of ventilators, then where are all the nurses to operate all the new ventilators going to come from? Does the government think loads of nurses qualified to operate ventilators are just hanging around waiting for the call?

I'm not a health care professional. My wife is a retired RN, so I may know just a tad bit more than the average person clueless about health care on the street. Is a ventilator that difficult to operate that some competent RNs and similarly-educated professionals can't be easily trained to operate these ventilators?

[thaibeachlovers]

3 minutes ago, billd766 said:

Do you have any better ideas? 

 

At least the government is doing something instead of sitting on a website in Thailand finding fault.

 

Do you not think that most western countries are doing their best in whatever way they can? Covid-19 is a relatively new virus and is impacting so much of the world and the skills and equipment are not available in large enough quantities yet.

 

IMHO it is better to have equipment in quantity to spare (which can be lent out or sold to other countries) and not have enough skilled staff (who can be trained) rather than a surplus of staff and no equipment.

Do you have any better ideas?

Carry on as normally as possible, don't panic and do silly things like buying loads of TP, and try to stay healthy as possible.

Just don't expect government to save everyone if it really goes bad. Hospitals and nurses will do their best, but miracles are in short supply these days.

 

I'm puzzled as to where you think all the extra nurses could come from. The UK doesn't have enough locals that want to be nurses and depends on nurses from overseas. In a world wide crisis nurses will be needed in their own country. Western hospitals don't have enough nurses anyway, to cope with a huge crisis like Italy has.

 

not have enough skilled staff (who can be trained)

Perhaps you think people off the street can be "trained"- good luck with that, and how many are willing to risk their own life looking after infectious patients with very little training? Takes years to train nurses properly.

rather than a surplus of staff and no equipment.

I very much doubt that will happen

 

 

I was watching an Al Jazeera documentary about Ebola in Liberia today- many of the people working with Ebola patients die of Ebola themselves.

[URMySunshine]

18 minutes ago, Crazy Alex said:

So they should just shut up about what they think their needs are because of what some anonymous poster on an internet bulletin board said on January 23? Beyond bad indeed. Blown way past bad and firmly in delusional and hilarious territory.

No the point is the writing was on the wall then to anyone who had eyes to see. The powers would be would be a 1000x better informed and now they ask companies publicly on twitter can they knock up ventilators. Beyond bad. Criminal dereliction of duty of the first order. What I think or comment on is of no point what our 'leaders' do or haven't done is. 

[Crazy Alex]

1 minute ago, URMySunshine said:

No the point is the writing was on the wall then to anyone who had eyes to see. The powers would be would be a 1000x better informed and now they ask companies publicly on twitter can they knock up ventilators. Beyond bad. Criminal dereliction of duty of the first order. What I think or comment on is of no point what our 'leaders' do or haven't done is. 

Wow, you mean governments are slow to respond to situations like this? I'm in shock to find out this is the case. Hey, I have the solution: grant government yet even more power over the people's lives. You know, since they handle so many other things like disease outbreaks so well. LOLOLOLOL

[thaibeachlovers]

8 minutes ago, Crazy Alex said:

I'm not a health care professional. My wife is a retired RN, so I may know just a tad bit more than the average person clueless about health care on the street. Is a ventilator that difficult to operate that some competent RNs and similarly-educated professionals can't be easily trained to operate these ventilators?

It's not just a case of training people to operate a ventilator, as that would be relatively easy- it's just a machine. Any intelligent person could be trained to operate a ventilator, but there is more to it than just twiddling knobs

Just like a pilot trains a lot to know what to do when the plane is going to crash, a nurse spends years learning to look after sick people.

What does your wife have to say about it? She may differ from me. Would she be prepared to go and look after Corona patients/ operate a ventilator?

 

The real problem in training more nurses to operate ventilators, IMO, is that they would then leave other areas like the wards understaffed, and most Corona patients will probably never get sick enough to need ventilating.

The NHS has a problem with recruiting enough nurses- underpaid, unappreciated and bullied. Chickens coming home to roost?

[thaibeachlovers]

23 minutes ago, DeeMak9 said:

Whats your suggestion? To not make them at all? Or did you expect him to ask the manufacturers to produce nursing robots as well?

They can make all the ventilators they like- that's not what I'm commenting on. I just don't like that the impression is being given that if there are enough machines everything will be OK. Nurses have been given the short end for years and now they are going to be expected to work miracles- that's not OK with me.

 

The way things are, nursing robots would be a good idea.

[Crazy Alex]

Just now, thaibeachlovers said:

They can make all the ventilators they like- that's not what I'm commenting on. I just don't like that the impression is being given that if there are enough machines everything will be OK. Nurses have been given the short end for years and now they are going to be expected to work miracles- that's not OK with me.

 

The way things are, nursing robots would be a good idea.

My wife worked for a major health care company in the US for over two decades. Retired in 2017. The last five or so years were brutal with the staffing cuts. And the hospital she worked at had particular note: right after working to get some silly "Magnet Hospital" award or status, they REALLY accelerated the cuts. But hey, at least the CEO made out: $9 million pay for his first year. Not bad for running one large hospital. Sucked for the nurses and patients, though. But who cares, right?

[sungod]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Sooooo, they make loads of ventilators, then where are all the nurses to operate all the new ventilators going to come from?

Thai visa mate, stacks of people on here who know everything about everything, most can multi task too.

[Chomper Higgot]

4 minutes ago, Crazy Alex said:

My wife worked for a major health care company in the US for over two decades. Retired in 2017. The last five or so years were brutal with the staffing cuts. And the hospital she worked at had particular note: right after working to get some silly "Magnet Hospital" award or status, they REALLY accelerated the cuts. But hey, at least the CEO made out: $9 million pay for his first year. Not bad for running one large hospital. Sucked for the nurses and patients, though. But who cares, right?

Well that’s capitalism for you.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, Crazy Alex said:

My wife worked for a major health care company in the US for over two decades. Retired in 2017. The last five or so years were brutal with the staffing cuts. And the hospital she worked at had particular note: right after working to get some silly "Magnet Hospital" award or status, they REALLY accelerated the cuts. But hey, at least the CEO made out: $9 million pay for his first year. Not bad for running one large hospital. Sucked for the nurses and patients, though. But who cares, right?

I was going to go work in the US back in the 90s. Passed the CGFNS exam. Ended up in the UK instead. Seems that was a good decision.

Nurses always seem to be expected to look after more patients, but that might sometimes be that they just can't get nurses, rather than to make a profit like in the US. My London hospital demoted all the senior nurses to keep more money, but I doubt the consultants were paid less. The one wielding the axe was a nurse- I don't doubt she was well paid for her treachery.

 

Sooooo, the question is where will all the extra nurses/ trained carers come from? Is the government doing anything about that, or is it just more machines?

[Crazy Alex]

5 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Well that’s capitalism for you.

Yep. And the only thing worse? I'll give you one guess. Here's some hints: Venezuela, Cuba, USSR.

[Crazy Alex]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I was going to go work in the US back in the 90s. Passed the CGFNS exam. Ended up in the UK instead. Seems that was a good decision.

Nurses always seem to be expected to look after more patients, but that might sometimes be that they just can't get nurses, rather than to make a profit like in the US. My London hospital demoted all the senior nurses to keep more money, but I doubt the consultants were paid less. The one wielding the axe was a nurse- I don't doubt she was well paid for her treachery.

 

Sooooo, the question is where will all the extra nurses/ trained carers come from? Is the government doing anything about that, or is it just more machines?

It's interesting you brought up extra nurses. Here in the US, there is an Associate Degree in nursing. My wife built an awesome career on that degree. Now the hospitals are wanting a Bachelor's Degree in nursing. Fine, but the timing seems odd- making the hurdle to get an RN job higher as the supply of nurses is already short. I guess they figured they had room since they cut staffing or... who knows?

[Ian Nagle]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Sooooo, they make loads of ventilators, then where are all the nurses to operate all the new ventilators going to come from? Does the government think loads of nurses qualified to operate ventilators are just hanging around waiting for the call?

After some initial training it would not be that difficult to operate and run a ventilator. Although a good positive attitude is needed I would not put your name forward, all things considered.

Edited March 16, 2020 by Ian Nagle

[thaibeachlovers]

3 minutes ago, Crazy Alex said:

It's interesting you brought up extra nurses. Here in the US, there is an Associate Degree in nursing. My wife built an awesome career on that degree. Now the hospitals are wanting a Bachelor's Degree in nursing. Fine, but the timing seems odd- making the hurdle to get an RN job higher as the supply of nurses is already short. I guess they figured they had room since they cut staffing or... who knows?

Getting way off topic, but that would be down to nursing politics. That was why nurse training was taken out of hospitals and transferred to university.

[thaibeachlovers]

7 minutes ago, Ian Nagle said:

After some initial training it would not be that difficult to operate and run a ventilator. Although a good positive attitude is needed I would not put your name forward, all things considered.

I take it you are not a nurse to say that. Positive attitude, LOL.

Perhaps you can volunteer to become a ventilator technician. I'm sure they'll need all they can get.

 

I dealt with that in a previous post. It is relatively easy to train a pilot to fly a plane too, but would you want one that doesn't know how to deal with problems?

 

Edited March 16, 2020 by thaibeachlovers

[Justgrazing]

3 hours ago, snoop1130 said:

The prime minister will speak to British manufacturers including Unipart Group to ask them to support production of essential medical equipment for the NHS,”

Good idea .. During WW2 a lot of British engineering companies turned over to making arms , munitions , vehicles , planes , etc so Britain has form for this .. 

And once the plans and spec's for a particular piece of equipment are divulged to a manufacturer like JCB they will have no problem in making it .. 

[sirineou]

1 hour ago, Crazy Alex said:

Wow, you mean governments are slow to respond to situations like this? I'm in shock to find out this is the case. Hey, I have the solution: grant government yet even more power over the people's lives. You know, since they handle so many other things like disease outbreaks so well. LOLOLOLOL

They handle it better than private industry does that does not handle it at all unless there is a profit to be made.

Case and point. A vaccine was being developed for SARS when the emergency passes and there was no longer a demand and a profit all research was abandoned.   

[Crazy Alex]

Just now, sirineou said:

They handle it better than private industry does that does not handle it at all unless there is a profit to be made.

Case and point. A vaccine was being developed for SARS when the emergency passes and there was no longer a demand and a profit all research was abandoned.   

OK. Now that begs the question: if government is so benevolent, why did THEY not get the vaccines made anyway? That said, there is ALWAYS a cost/benefit analysis done when making such decisions. I assume the powers that be in various governments made that calculation regarding the SARS vaccine. So I don't necessarily fault anyone. All systems will have flows. Yours is a perfect example.

[sirineou]

11 minutes ago, Crazy Alex said:

OK. Now that begs the question: if government is so benevolent, why did THEY not get the vaccines made anyway? That said, there is ALWAYS a cost/benefit analysis done when making such decisions. I assume the powers that be in various governments made that calculation regarding the SARS vaccine. So I don't necessarily fault anyone. All systems will have flows. Yours is a perfect example.

Sure all systems have faults, but the for profit system has the "by definition" fatal flaw.

There are some things that the for profit system does better given the incentive, and then there are others .................. Public health is not one to be left to human greed IMO.

The government should have a "Manhattan Project"  working on this continuously. SARS was not the last virus and I guarantee you, this one is not going to be the last one also. 

     Perhaps an International effort is requires, something similar to the Large Hadron Collider project. 

Edited March 16, 2020 by sirineou

[thaibeachlovers]

41 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Sure all systems have faults, but the for profit system has the "by definition" fatal flaw.

There are some things that the for profit system does better given the incentive, and then there are others .................. Public health is not one to be left to human greed IMO.

The government should have a "Manhattan Project"  working on this continuously. SARS was not the last virus and I guarantee you, this one is not going to be the last one also. 

     Perhaps an International effort is requires, something similar to the Large Hadron Collider project. 

Good example. They'll spend untold on a machine that doesn't save a single life, but nothing on preventing things like Corona.

[mauGR1]

2 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Good example. They'll spend untold on a machine that doesn't save a single life, but nothing on preventing things like Corona.

Tbh, i doubt things like corona can be prevented, moreover it's not impossible that it has been created on purpose.

[Basil B]

What a joke, do they realise just what is involved.

 

1st a design. then it is unlikely any company can make all the components, let alone medical grade, so this needs to be an open sources very basic, no frills design, with specialist companies tendering to make the components.