airlines cancelling flights, refunds are up in the air

[Tops]

11 hours ago, Peter Denis said:

Instead of taking the unsure road of applying for a refund, would it not be better to ask my credit-card company for a 'charge back', as you suggest.

Emirates send me an e-mail that my flights Dubai - Brussels were CANCELLED (not suspended).

But my flights Bangkok - Dubai are not cancelled yet by them (but obviously they did become worthless for me without onward flights to my final destination).

 

You may not even board because your connecting flight to Brussels is canceled. 

[William C F Pierce]

All the Airlines are doing just as they please at the moment. Many are ignoring the Warsaw convention and the 1999 Montreal Convention.
I should have returned to the UK at the beginning of March, but my airline cancelled my return flight. They refunded just 3000 Baht to my

credit card that I originally paid them with. Which is not enough for a return flight. Although I see my situation as a blessing in disguise,

because the COVID-19 situation is worse in the UK than it is here in Thailand. I have done one border run for a visa, but don't know what

to expect when it is due for renewal or extension.
Still Hollywood could never invent a horror story of the world shut down with COVID-19. It is totally beyond their imagination. Someone is

probably right now writing the script for the COVID-19 Biopic.

[StevieAus]

22 hours ago, Iamemjay said:

Scoot (unlike what the post above says) offer online self serve vouchers available for 12 months. I applied last night and received my voucher this morning. Very Impressed. 

 

AirAsia are a bit more tricky. I'm an Aussie and technically I can still return to Oz, but frankly, I would be crazy to do it. So they won't refund (at this stage, but I think that will change in time as more restrictions are imposed).

 I thought Air Asia announced that they have cancelled all international flights until 25 April 2020 their website is showing no flights to Australia to that date, whether that extends who knows.

We were due to travel the 1 May for two weeks but will not go for obvious reasons.

[HaleySabai]

oops

 

Edited March 24, 2020 by HaleySabai

[new2here]

Here’s one thing that I have told my friends..

 

While a “cash” refund is always good, in SOME cases, taking their rebooking option MIGHT be as good or even better...
 

I am assuming that the airline is still around - and for the moment, I don’t think airlines like BA, Qatar, United or Thai are in any real risk is flat out disappearing/being liquidated.

 

the reason I think the rebooking MIGHT be good is IF they allow you to rebook later - and you KNOW you need to travel - lets say for example in October or something, so long as they don’t impose a change fee (which I highly doubt anyone is really doing) BUT ALSO doesn’t charge a fare differential IF your new October booking price is higher than your current flight cost... then you could use that rebooking alternative as a means to essentially hedge against higher prices.

 

True, when the market for air travel does come back, I wouldn’t be surprised to see discounts to spur demand... but... you never know..

 

so, the ability to rebook (and assuming there is no fee to do so and no fare differential charged) might be a decent way to hedge against higher fares or even availability.

 

just a thought.

[HaleySabai]

On 3/23/2020 at 10:44 AM, kwonitoy said:

I've spent upwards of 8 hours on hold with expedia listening to their crappy song.

Booked flight through them for me and my son to travel to Edmonton Canada with EVA/Air Canada.

March 25. I'm not going, I won't endanger my son trying to fly right now, I can wait, If it's next year so be it.

I thing getting any refund is a lost cause now.

 

I can't do anything online because, multiple airlines/bookings

I can't do anything on the carriers websites because, multiple airlines/bookings.

Expedia is so far useless, they say long cue lines/wait times on the phone. I don't think they are even trying to answer the phones. Am on hold right now with the phone beside me as I browse the computer.

Our flight with Eva is April.22 from CM to Edmonchuk. Once the announcement to close the border was in place this took the guess work out of deciding to go or stay in Thailand.

Eva air posted a guideline for those with that routing and offered a full refund exemption of cancellation fees.In our case the fee is 7,000baht x 4. The online cancellation process is automated so the fee is deducted.The online notice with the cancellation was to call a reservation office to get the fee back. Going to do that tomorrow. Hope we don't get half the run-around you did.....however,I'll believe it when I see the fees it in my account.

 

I booked online through the Eva Air website.Have done this for 11yrs because I just feel more secure dealing directly rather than through a 3rd party.

 

[Peter Denis]

11 hours ago, new2here said:

...

so, the ability to rebook (and assuming there is no fee to do so and no fare differential charged) might be a decent way to hedge against higher fares or even availability.

I booked with Emirates and they cancelled the 2nd leg of the flights I booked with them, and since this morning suspended the 1st leg.

When I booked they already had announced that there would be no admin charges when wanting to change the flights.  But their T&C indicate that when booking other flights with them, you would have to pay the differential charge.

So instead of opting for a 1-year valid voucher to book later and pay the differential (if any) when those flights are more expensive, I will opt for a 'charge back' of the fee I paid with my credit-card.  Since Emirates (not me!) did cancel the flights and thus did not honor the contract of providing me the service I payed for, that should be no problem at all.

 

[Oliver Holzerfilled]

49 minutes ago, Peter Denis said:

I booked with Emirates and they cancelled the 2nd leg of the flights I booked with them, and since this morning suspended the 1st leg.

When I booked they already had announced that there would be no admin charges when wanting to change the flights.  But their T&C indicate that when booking other flights with them, you would have to pay the differential charge.

So instead of opting for a 1-year valid voucher to book later and pay the differential (if any) when those flights are more expensive, I will opt for a 'charge back' of the fee I paid with my credit-card.  Since Emirates (not me!) did cancel the flights and thus did not honor the contract of providing me the service I payed for, that should be no problem at all.

 

My Emirates flights were cancelled as well.  This will be my third chargeback in the last two weeks for flights if I don't get a refund from Emirates. I don't want a voucher.  I'm afraid I'll need to go to small claims court for a couple of other flights.

Surprisingly I had a nonrefundable flight on Iberia that I no showed and they still gave me a voucher for the full price when I don't think they were obligated to give me anything.  I suppose it's possible the flight was cancelled but I never got an email notification about a cancellation.

[sandyf]

On 3/23/2020 at 10:48 AM, Peter Denis said:

Instead of taking the unsure road of applying for a refund, would it not be better to ask my credit-card company for a 'charge back', as you suggest.

 

The issue in question would be covered by Section 75 of the Consumer Protection Act and I think you will find that one of the conditions is that you have tried to resolve the issue with the supplier first.

The basis would be that the supplier has not provided what was sold so any talk of non-refundable shouldn't come into it. That is supposed to apply to changes you make, not the supplier.

I may well be looking at the same course of action.

 

Someone mentioned the EU directive, EU261, not going to apply in this situation, would be declared as "extraordinary circumstances".

[CNXBKKMAN]

On 3/23/2020 at 5:23 PM, SERGERAMOS said:

I have a return flight with Qatar on the 21st of April I wanted to change my flight to an earlier date so I could get back to the uk Qatar were quoting £1400 robbing sods so booked a £320 flight with emirates yesterday for the 1st of April now they are not flying both flights were booked with the airlines direct also booked a Thai smile flight to bangkok and a train ticket for when I got back to the uk think I've been shafted from all angles any advice anyone 

If Qatar Airways are offering free of charge date changes due the corona situation how exactly did changing to an earlier date cost £1400? They normally offer you any flight that has seats. Or were you upgrading to Business from economy? 

[cornishcarlos]

Oman Air just suspended all operations apart from one internal route I believe.. Have a return to U.K booked for 3rd May and hoping to get either free rebook or full refund.. No reply from them yet !! 

[CNXBKKMAN]

2 minutes ago, cornishcarlos said:

Oman Air just suspended all operations apart from one internal route I believe.. Have a return to U.K booked for 3rd May and hoping to get either free rebook or full refund.. No reply from them yet !! 

I would just do the date change for the future but at this point they don't know themselves when flights will resume so you probably wont be able to sort it out until flights resume in a month or two? 

[CNXBKKMAN]

13 hours ago, new2here said:

Here’s one thing that I have told my friends..

 

While a “cash” refund is always good, in SOME cases, taking their rebooking option MIGHT be as good or even better...
 

I am assuming that the airline is still around - and for the moment, I don’t think airlines like BA, Qatar, United or Thai are in any real risk is flat out disappearing/being liquidated.

 

the reason I think the rebooking MIGHT be good is IF they allow you to rebook later - and you KNOW you need to travel - lets say for example in October or something, so long as they don’t impose a change fee (which I highly doubt anyone is really doing) BUT ALSO doesn’t charge a fare differential IF your new October booking price is higher than your current flight cost... then you could use that rebooking alternative as a means to essentially hedge against higher prices.

 

True, when the market for air travel does come back, I wouldn’t be surprised to see discounts to spur demand... but... you never know..

 

so, the ability to rebook (and assuming there is no fee to do so and no fare differential charged) might be a decent way to hedge against higher fares or even availability.

 

just a thought.

Thats exactly what i would do if holding a valid ticket with Emirates, Qatar, BA etc. When the services resume and the flights are up and running again i would contact the airline and get it date changed to a suitable date. I wouldn't be expecting to pay anything. Date change fees, booking class restrictions are normally waived in extraordinary situations like this. 

    If i was booked on a lesser airline that isn't backed by a national government or sitting on a £8 billion pound cash pile like BA i would want a cash refund. A voucher with Norwegian may be worthless.

[treetops]

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

Someone mentioned the EU directive, EU261, not going to apply in this situation, would be declared as "extraordinary circumstances".

The "extraordinary circumstances" get out would remove your rights to compensation, but does not remove your right to a full cash refund if your flight falls under the scope of the directive.

[treetops]

On 3/23/2020 at 2:56 PM, Tops said:

But we booked at Expedia and we can't get in touch with them. Will just charge back using MasterCard.

I've read conflicting reports about whether this will work.  You paid Expedia to provide a booking service which they have done.  The airlines, not Expedia, have cancelled flights so Expedia are not liable and have carried out what you paid them to do.  They should pass on any refund from the airline minus their own admin fee, which could be hefty.  Please let us know how you get on with any charge back claim.

[007 RED]

Re: EU261

 

A number of members have mentioned claiming against EU261 because the airline has cancelled their flight, so I have clarified the situation below.

 

EU Regulation 261/2004 is a law which provides compensation to passengers whose flights have been delayed or cancelled. 

 

EU Regulation 261/2004 is an EU law so it applies to countries in the European Union (EU) and was created by the European Commission (EC) so it’s sometimes called EC261 or EC Regulation 261.

 

All countries that are part of the EU fall under the regulation 261 rules – there is no option to opt out. Some European countries that are not part of the European Union, such as Switzerland and Norway, have opted in to EU Regulation 261 as a benefit to their citizens and travellers in and out of the their airports.  At present these Regulation still apply to the UK although it has withdrawn from the EU.

 

Flight Delay/cancellation Regulations apply to anybody (regardless of age or nationality) whose flight departs from an airport based in an EU country or whose flight arrives into an EU country and is operated by an EU airline.

 

Example 1:  You have a return flight booked London to Bangkok.  If the initial outbound flight is delayed/cancelled you will be entitled to EU261 compensation.  EU261 will also apply if there was an intermediate stop on route e.g. Emirates via Dubai.  If the return flight is delayed/cancelled (Bangkok to London) you will only be entitled to EU261 compensation if the airline is an EU based carrier e.g. BA,LH,AF etc.

 

Example 2:  You have a return flight booked from Bangkok to Paris.  Your initial flight from Bangkok to Paris is delayed/cancelled.  You will only be entitled to EU261 compensation if the airline is an EU based carrier e.g. BA,LH,AF etc.

 

I hope this helps.

[007 RED]

Re: Chargeback

 

In an earlier post I mentioned that Chargeback was also an option when, as appears to be currently happening, that an airline cancels a flight and then only offers a refund less a cancellation fee (which can be substantial) or flatly refuses a refund on the basis that the ticket was non-refundable.  I would like to clarify a few things concerning Chargeback.

 

Firstly:  If you are under the impression that raising a Chargeback claim with your credit card provider will instantly get your money back, then I'm sorry to disappoint you.  The Chargeback scheme is effectively a dispute scheme which involves the card holder informing the card provider that he/she disputes the payment made for any one of a number of reasons - in the case of an airline cancelling the flight the claim would be that the card holder did not receive the service as contracted when they purchased the ticket.

 

Upon raising the Chargeback claim, the credit card company will contact the provider's bank with details of the Chargeback claim and request that the finds be returned to them.  The service provider can, and in many cases will dispute the Chargeback claim.  If the service provider disputes the chargeback, the claim will go for adjudication which may take some time.  If it is decided that the Chargeback claim is valid the service provider's bank will deduct the value of the chargeback from the service provider's account.

 

Secondly:  If you are considering a Chargeback claim most credit card companies require the claim to be submitted within a specific time from the date the purchase was made.  Each CC company has different time limits so its best to check what that is with your CC provider.  Visa for example requires a Chargeback claim to be made in less that 120 days from the date of purchase.

 

Thirdly:  As mentioned above, the Chargeback scheme is basically a dispute scheme.  Therefore, when submitting a claim you will need to provide evidence to your CC provider that you have initially tried to claim a refund from the service provider.  In the case of the airline having cancelled your flight(s) you should keep a copy of any emails or other correspondence that you have had with the airline and send that as supporting evidence with your Chargeback claim.  In cases where you call the airline make a note of the date and time of your call and a brief summary of the conversation with the airline call centre agent and supply these details with your chargeback claim - FYI... almost all call centres record telephone conversation so it will be difficult for the airline to dispute you contacted them. 

 

Fourthly: If the airline has either cancelled the return segment (or part of the return segment) of your flight, it is unlikely that Chargeback will be successful.  This is because unless you are unlikely to be able to quantify actual cost of the return segment(s) of the return flight.  If you give a figure plucked out of thin air the service provider will instantly dispute your claim and possible counter claim that your claim is a fraud.  Hence this type of Chargeback is fraught with danger and could affect your credit rating or the CC provider withdrawing your card.

 

For all those affected by flight cancellations, I wish you best of luck.

Edited March 25, 2020 by 007 RED
Typo

[surreybloke]

help.   The fem went out to bkk on thai sunday morning after standing out in freezing cold outside the embassy last friday.    

Just got an email telling me the return on the 9th may is cancelled.   

Booked with a CC via traveltrolley/southall travel.

Soo   do i try and get a new date or demand a refund and take our chances elsewhere ?

Do i insist the agent helps or Thai    

 

[Peter Denis]

14 hours ago, 007 RED said:

Re: Chargeback

 

Fourthly: If the airline has either cancelled the return segment (or part of the return segment) of your flight, it is unlikely that Chargeback will be successful.  This is because unless you are unlikely to be able to quantify actual cost of the return segment(s) of the return flight.  If you give a figure plucked out of thin air the service provider will instantly dispute your claim and possible counter claim that your claim is a fraud.  Hence this type of Chargeback is fraught with danger and could affect your credit rating or the CC provider withdrawing your card.

My airline - Emirates - has cancelled both the second leg of my BKK-DUB-BRU flight as well as the first leg of my BRU-DUB-BKK return-flight.

Obviously since the flights to/from my final destination with them have been cancelled, the BKK-DUB and DUB-BKK flights have become useless.

I presume that in such case I am entitled to a full refund, and if they are not willing to do so that a charge-back is indicated.

Is this correct?

[sandyf]

16 hours ago, 007 RED said:

Re: EU261

 

A number of members have mentioned claiming against EU261 because the airline has cancelled their flight, so I have clarified the situation below.

 

EU Regulation 261/2004 is a law which provides compensation to passengers whose flights have been delayed or cancelled. 

 

EU Regulation 261/2004 is an EU law so it applies to countries in the European Union (EU) and was created by the European Commission (EC) so it’s sometimes called EC261 or EC Regulation 261.

 

All countries that are part of the EU fall under the regulation 261 rules – there is no option to opt out. Some European countries that are not part of the European Union, such as Switzerland and Norway, have opted in to EU Regulation 261 as a benefit to their citizens and travellers in and out of the their airports.  At present these Regulation still apply to the UK although it has withdrawn from the EU.

 

Flight Delay/cancellation Regulations apply to anybody (regardless of age or nationality) whose flight departs from an airport based in an EU country or whose flight arrives into an EU country and is operated by an EU airline.

 

Example 1:  You have a return flight booked London to Bangkok.  If the initial outbound flight is delayed/cancelled you will be entitled to EU261 compensation.  EU261 will also apply if there was an intermediate stop on route e.g. Emirates via Dubai.  If the return flight is delayed/cancelled (Bangkok to London) you will only be entitled to EU261 compensation if the airline is an EU based carrier e.g. BA,LH,AF etc.

 

Example 2:  You have a return flight booked from Bangkok to Paris.  Your initial flight from Bangkok to Paris is delayed/cancelled.  You will only be entitled to EU261 compensation if the airline is an EU based carrier e.g. BA,LH,AF etc.

 

I hope this helps.

You missed out this para from Article 5

 

3. An operating air carrier shall not be obliged to pay compensation in accordance with Article 7, if it can prove that the cancellation is caused by extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?qid=1476179175834&uri=CELEX:32004R0261

 

Not trying to be a smartxxxx, this was quoted to me in a current dispute with BA.

[sandyf]

1 hour ago, Peter Denis said:

My airline - Emirates - has cancelled both the second leg of my BKK-DUB-BRU flight as well as the first leg of my BRU-DUB-BKK return-flight.

Obviously since the flights to/from my final destination with them have been cancelled, the BKK-DUB and DUB-BKK flights have become useless.

I presume that in such case I am entitled to a full refund, and if they are not willing to do so that a charge-back is indicated.

Is this correct?

I am in the same boat and have looked further since my last post. I would rule out a charge-back as that could run into irreversible problems as Emirates have an offer on the table,

You can claim a refund but would not be the full amount as under the fare conditions you would not be entitled to non-refundable taxes and I suspect that would also apply in a charge-back.

I have had a look at the form and you should take note of this para.

"I understand that any relevant Fare Conditions applicable to refunds will be waived by Emirates if I request a travel voucher and I will receive the full value of my payment."

 

The voucher appears to be quite flexible and if not used in 12 months then a full refund would be available, full details are on the form which can be can be found here. 

 https://www.emirates.com/th/english/help/refund-request/ 

[sandyf]

20 hours ago, treetops said:

The "extraordinary circumstances" get out would remove your rights to compensation, but does not remove your right to a full cash refund if your flight falls under the scope of the directive.

A bit irrelevant, the directive would only kick in if the airline did not have a cancellation refund policy, and only a small percentage of airlines flying in and out of Thailand are subject to the directive.

[NoshowJones]

Can anyone say that if a flight is cancelled, can having paid by UK bank debit card have any advantage to you? I have booked a flight with Emirates by a travel agency to the UK on Sept 15th 2020.

If things are not back to normal by then, will I be entitled to a refund?

[treetops]

8 hours ago, sandyf said:

A bit irrelevant, the directive would only kick in if the airline did not have a cancellation refund policy, and only a small percentage of airlines flying in and out of Thailand are subject to the directive.

Hardly, you mentioned that EU261 would not be applicable due to the "extraordinary circmstances" get out which was incorrect.  Several airlines are blatantly disregarding EU261 requirements so it shouldn't be cast aside on erroneous advice on a forum.

[treetops]

1 hour ago, possum1931 said:

Can anyone say that if a flight is cancelled, can having paid by UK bank debit card have any advantage to you? I have booked a flight with Emirates by a travel agency to the UK on Sept 15th 2020.

If things are not back to normal by then, will I be entitled to a refund?

UK debit cards are also covered by chargeback, but booking via a TA muddies the waters a bit.  Emirates have improved their refund or voucher offer but you'll have to deal with the TA which could cause issues.

[Chivas]

6 hours ago, possum1931 said:

Can anyone say that if a flight is cancelled, can having paid by UK bank debit card have any advantage to you? I have booked a flight with Emirates by a travel agency to the UK on Sept 15th 2020.

If things are not back to normal by then, will I be entitled to a refund?

You'll be covered by abta/atol bonding so not the slightest problem whatever happens

[treetops]

22 minutes ago, Chivas said:

You'll be covered by abta/atol bonding so not the slightest problem whatever happens

ATOL cover does not usually cover scheduled flights bought through a travel agent.  Packages, charter flights and flight-plus deals only.

 

https://www.caa.co.uk/ATOL-protection/Consumers/About-ATOL/

Edited March 26, 2020 by treetops

[Chivas]

11 hours ago, treetops said:

ATOL cover does not usually cover scheduled flights bought through a travel agent.  Packages, charter flights and flight-plus deals only.

 

https://www.caa.co.uk/ATOL-protection/Consumers/About-ATOL/

Why dont you actually read what was initially written by me

[sandyf]

18 hours ago, treetops said:

Several airlines are blatantly disregarding EU261 requirements

Obviously to make that statement you would need to have some proof, but I doubt it. Only the person holding the ticket would know if EU261 had been "disregarded", as you put it. If they felt that was the case then they should be making a claim, as I am doing in the court against BA.

[sandyf]

20 hours ago, possum1931 said:

Can anyone say that if a flight is cancelled, can having paid by UK bank debit card have any advantage to you? I have booked a flight with Emirates by a travel agency to the UK on Sept 15th 2020.

If things are not back to normal by then, will I be entitled to a refund?

As I said in post 81, if both the situation and Emirates policy remain unchanged you would be entitled to a voucher or a refund. It should be borne in mind that some of the tax and fees are irrecoverable so not a full refund like the voucher.

It woulds appear that Emirates, probably as a cash flow exercise, are prepared to stand that loss if you take the voucher.