Hydroxychloroquine is useless

[Kelsall]

On 4/6/2020 at 5:54 PM, JHolmesJr said:

 

I will not be at all surprised if that sly old dog Trump is on this regimen already.

That's how he's able to stand on that podium without a mask and swat away

idiots like Acosta with alarming alacrity.

 

Mind you he's had a lot of practice.

I wanted to come back to this.  I'd bet money that you're right about Trump taking HCL for prevention.  

 

Bottom line on all this is that Trump has no doubt saved hundreds of thousands of lives worldwide by publicizing HCL. 

 

The haters are livid about that!

[JHolmesJr]

The Dems are actually rooting for millions of Americans to die as they think

it will win them an election...these people are despicable. ????

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, JHolmesJr said:

The Dems are actually rooting for millions of Americans to die as they think

it will win them an election...these people are despicable. ????

You ought to be ashamed of yourself for making that totally false charge. SICK SICK SICK! 

[Jingthing]

9 minutes ago, Kelsall said:

I wanted to come back to this.  I'd bet money that you're right about Trump taking HCL for prevention.  

 

Bottom line on all this is that Trump has no doubt saved hundreds of thousands of lives worldwide by publicizing HCL. 

 

The haters are livid about that!

Hardly. If it works it works.

However, as yet there is no actual SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE that it does. 
There are only anecdotal reports.

The concerns that FACT BASED people of any political stripe have is that there might be too much focus on a possible treatment that we still don't know actually works that could crowd out the legitimate consideration and study of a number of other treatment options.

Also, it's pretty clear that different people are going to do best with different kinds of treatments at different stages of the disease process.

People understandably want simple magical answers to this. There won't be anything like that in the real world. 

[JHolmesJr]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

There are only anecdotal reports.

 

you and your gang were ready to impeach and dismiss the president of the United States 

based on "anecdotal reports". ????

 

Sorry Professor, we don't have time right now to present you with a leather-bound volume

on why HydroxyC works.....signed by a panel of doctors who vote Democrat until they die.

[Jingthing]

12 minutes ago, JHolmesJr said:

 

you and your gang were ready to impeach and dismiss the president of the United States 

based on "anecdotal reports". ????

 

Sorry Professor, we don't have time right now to present you with a leather-bound volume

on why HydroxyC works.....signed by a panel of doctors who vote Democrat until they die.

I find your POV nauseating.

It sounds you care much more about stunts to glorify this president than actually finding the very best treatments for these patients. 

There is zero evidence that it is a miracle cure. The scientific consensus now is that it either does nothing or at best is modestly helpful. 

The latter is better than nothing of course but patients need better than that. 

Here is some background on the science of this. More science. Less politics. 

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2020/04/what-coronavirus-drug-will-look-like/609661/?utm_source=digg

 

[JHolmesJr]

8 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

There is zero evidence that it is a miracle cure.

 

more deception from a democrat...that is truly nauseating.

 

no one has claimed this is a "miracle cure"...all it does is in some cases is mitigate

some deadly progression of this virus...which has saved lives. 

 

until a vaccine is made, this is hope for everyone.

 

except democrats...in fact I vote we shouldn't give it to them...because they wouldnt

want it anyway.

[Jingthing]

13 minutes ago, JHolmesJr said:

 

more deception from a democrat...that is truly nauseating.

 

no one has claimed this is a "miracle cure"...all it does is in some cases is mitigate

some deadly progression of this virus...which has saved lives. 

 

until a vaccine is made, this is hope for everyone.

 

except democrats...in fact I vote we shouldn't give it to them...because they wouldnt

want it anyway.

You are competing with yourself for the most SICK post on this topic. Stop it already. It is DISGUSTING. Everyone except psychopaths want treatments for this. It has NOTHING to do with party affiliation. Again -- less politics. MORE SCIENCE.

[Morty T]

Useless, unless it works for YOU. We've already had several high profile cases where the drug was successfully used. TDS (Trump Derangement Syndrome) is still alive and well.

[Kelsall]

48 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I find your POV nauseating.

It sounds you care much more about stunts to glorify this president than actually finding the very best treatments for these patients. 

There is zero evidence that it is a miracle cure. The scientific consensus now is that it either does nothing or at best is modestly helpful. 

The latter is better than nothing of course but patients need better than that. 

Here is some background on the science of this. More science. Less politics. 

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2020/04/what-coronavirus-drug-will-look-like/609661/?utm_source=digg

 

The science is settled.  There is strong evidence the drug is effective against the virus.

 

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/03/19/chloroquine-known-as-effective-against-coronavirus-since-2005/

[gk10002000]

Probably many things may help in certain instances.  Anything that interrupts the virus' ability to replicate might help a bit.  None are true preventions or cures until the proper physical/chemical structure or vaccine is really made.  There are some general anti viral drugs out there that can inhibit several virus replications but nothing universal as many viruses are quite different

[Jingthing]

51 minutes ago, Kelsall said:

The science is settled.  There is strong evidence the drug is effective against the virus.

 

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/03/19/chloroquine-known-as-effective-against-coronavirus-since-2005/

 

That is a blatant lie. The science on this is NOT settled. What is the motivation to lie about such a serious topic? Is it loyalty to the president? If not, what? Again -- facts and science. It is NOT settled science. Not even close. FACT.

 

Here is a very FACTS BASED talk on that med and other options. Highly recommended but I suppose 45 loyalists won't even bother to get more objective information. Truly sad.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/podcasts/post-reports/the-risks-of-unproven-drugs-for-coronavirus/

 

Quote

The risks of unproven drugs for coronavirus

 

[RANGER55]

On 4/6/2020 at 5:56 PM, Toosetinmyways said:

The other problem is that the only place that has the stocks that Trump wants is India and Modi has already said no deal. 

Last word today:

Trump has already called his bluff. Modi backed down and said they will be shipping all you like to the US.

[Kelsall]

41 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

 

That is a blatant lie. The science on this is NOT settled. What is the motivation to lie about such a serious topic? Is it loyalty to the president? If not, what? Again -- facts and science. It is NOT settled science. Not even close. FACT.

 

Here is a very FACTS BASED talk on that med and other options. Highly recommended but I suppose 45 loyalists won't even bother to get more objective information. Truly sad.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/podcasts/post-reports/the-risks-of-unproven-drugs-for-coronavirus/

 

 

I listened to it. Ridiculous when it comes to discussion of the drug.  Just another Trump bashing session from the Washington Post, as expected.

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, Kelsall said:

I listened to it. Ridiculous when it comes to discussion of the drug.  Just another Trump bashing session from the Washington Post, as expected.

Predictable response. 

[Tounge Thaied]

Question: How many vaccines are you willing to take?

When Covid20, 21, 22 etc., strikes, are you going to accept the ever increasing serial vaccinations?

[DrTuner]

28 minutes ago, Tounge Thaied said:

Question: How many vaccines are you willing to take?

When Covid20, 21, 22 etc., strikes, are you going to accept the ever increasing serial vaccinations?

Yeah, but would prefer one universal shot like Centivax is trying to create. Even better, wall in China so we don't get 20,21,22..

Edited April 9, 2020 by DrTuner

[WaveHunter]

Please tell me that your assertion, "Hydroxychloroquine is useless" is not based solely on this non peer-reviewed study of only 11 patients.  Even the report itself does not make the assertion you are claiming, and concludes in it's closing comment, "Ongoing randomized clinical trials with hydroxychloroquine should provide a definitive answer regarding the alleged efficacy of this combination and will assess its safety."

 

The fact is, there is just as much science-based information that supports the potential efficacy of Hydroxychloroquine in combination with zinc in slowing down the progression of symptoms, as there is that rejects it, and IMO science is on the side of the former not the latter.  

 

In the absence of a deliverable vaccine for probably another 18 months, slowing down the progression of symptoms is the name of the game for potential pharmaceutical treatments.

Trump may not be a doctor or scientists but he understands this vital fact and that's why he and many others are advocates of aggressively exploring the potential of HCQ, zinc, and also Azithromycin (not Z-Pak) as a combination treatment.

 

There are a lot of scientific studies that show efficacy of Hydroxychloroquine (HCQ) at preventing viruses from entering into the cell membrane.  It has been shown that when cells are treated with chloroquine the pH of the endosome is elevated, which prevents fusion of the virus to the cell membrane and thus blocks viral infection. 

 

The reproduction of many viruses is known to be inhibited by chloroquine, and this has been proven in in-vitro studies and in-vivo for certain viruses.  In the case of SARS-CoV-2, in-vivo results are actively being explored scientifically.

 

More importantly, zinc has also been proven to interfere with viral replication within the cell membrane by disrupting mitochondrial machinery that the virus uses to replicate itself. While zinc is normally not able to enter the cell membrane, HCQ enables zinc to enter the cell.  HCQ acts as a sort of key allowing it to pass through!

 

So, HCQ in combination with zinc and also along with Azithromycin (primarily to stave off secondary bacterial infections) is a very promising avenue that could slow the progression of COVID-19 symptoms in patients, and maybe give them more time for their own innate immune response to kick in, and certainly lower the chances of them ending up in ICU.

All of the positive clinical data coming out of South Korea and China is based on this combination approach of zinc combined with HCQ, and their successes should not be discounted.

 

And then there is the anecdotal evidence here in the West.  While it might not meet the standards of a clinical trial, when people are dying to the degree they are with this virus, to simply ignore such accounts would be criminal, especially when you consider that HCQ has proven itself to be safe over decades of use with Malaria.

 

When you take into account the results of Dr. Vladimir Zelenko, a General Practioners in New York, who's treated over 700 patients and had a 99% success rate at slowing symptoms to a significant degree, or the work of Dr. Didier Raoult from France, there seems every reason to pursue this avenue.  There's very little to lose, and a lot to gain!

 

Bottom line... Right now, anyone who emphatically states that these drugs do or do not work is simply not basing it on science.  Time will tell.

Edited April 13, 2020 by WaveHunter

[uhuh]

2 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

There's very little to lose, and a lot to gain!

"You could lose your life" (Patricia Harris, President AMA)

 

But she is black, so what does she know. 

Why don't all the people who voted for a very stable genius just take HCQ ( plus Acithromycin plus zinc plus peppermint... whatever)

And the others follow science.

[AussieBob18]

 

[Jingthing]

On 4/9/2020 at 8:51 PM, Tounge Thaied said:

Question: How many vaccines are you willing to take?

When Covid20, 21, 22 etc., strikes, are you going to accept the ever increasing serial vaccinations?

It's not determined yet.

 

Why not? Flu vaccines are different every year.

I don't even get your point. 

[uhuh]

 

Chloroquine Study Halted Over Risk of Fatal Heart Complications - The New York Times

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/12/health/chloroquine-coronavirus-trump.html&ved=2ahUKEwjC4_yj_uXoAhVJ05QKHVQ0AYsQFjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw2AO2B4gRILNUB6M0pfGxz9

 

Note: the Chinese originally gave the high doses mentioned in the article,  they don't recommend this anymore

 

Edited April 13, 2020 by uhuh

[WaveHunter]

10 hours ago, uhuh said:

 

Chloroquine Study Halted Over Risk of Fatal Heart Complications - The New York Times

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/12/health/chloroquine-coronavirus-trump.html&ved=2ahUKEwjC4_yj_uXoAhVJ05QKHVQ0AYsQFjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw2AO2B4gRILNUB6M0pfGxz9

 

Note: the Chinese originally gave the high doses mentioned in the article,  they don't recommend this anymore

 

This was a grossly flawed study, and was probably halted NOT because of risks for fatal heart complications but because they were not following the suggested protocol for Covid-19 treatment! 

 

Firstly, the dosages they used were far higher than are currently being suggested, and secondly, there was no mention if any underlying conditions were present in the patients, and finally, it was probably administered far too late in the progression of symptoms.

 

You also didn't mention that this was a non peer-reviewed study and it involved a very small group of only 81 patients.  Hardly the basis for such a sweeping assertion that you are making.

 

Just for reference, the standard dosage for malaria prophylaxis is 500 mg once a week, and has a proven safety track records spanning decades. Suggested dosing regimen for Covid-19 is 200 mg twice daily for usually 7 days.

 

So you get 2,800 mg for Covid-19 over a week vs 500 mg as a malarial prophylaxis vs 6,000mg over a 10 day period from this study!  So yeah, this is an example of gross overdosing by the researchers, not an example of the suggested Covid-19 protocol of 1400mg over a 7 day period.

 

While it may be true that higher dosage can lead to QT elongation and heart rhythm disorders, this is usually only if you already had underlying issues. 

 

Also, with regard to use in Convid-19 patients, HCQ overdosing will actually lower the innate immune response.  However, Lupus patients take the same dosage that is being suggested for Covid-19 patients – pretty much forever without issue if there are no underlying conditions, without ill effect.

[Sheryl]

1 hour ago, WaveHunter said:

This was a grossly flawed study, and was probably halted NOT because of risks for fatal heart complications but because they were not following the suggested protocol for Covid-19 treatment! 

 

Firstly, the dosages they used were far higher than are currently being suggested, and secondly, there was no mention if any underlying conditions were present in the patients, and finally, it was probably administered far too late in the progression of symptoms.

 

You also didn't mention that this was a non peer-reviewed study and it involved a very small group of only 81 patients.  Hardly the basis for such a sweeping assertion that you are making.

 

Just for reference, the standard dosage for malaria prophylaxis is 500 mg once a week, and has a proven safety track records spanning decades. Suggested dosing regimen for Covid-19 is 200 mg twice daily for usually 7 days.

 

So you get 2,800 mg for Covid-19 over a week vs 500 mg as a malarial prophylaxis vs 6,000mg over a 10 day period from this study!  So yeah, this is an example of gross overdosing by the researchers, not an example of the suggested Covid-19 protocol of 1400mg over a 7 day period.

 

While it may be true that higher dosage can lead to QT elongation and heart rhythm disorders, this is usually only if you already had underlying issues. 

 

Also, with regard to use in Convid-19 patients, HCQ overdosing will actually lower the innate immune response.  However, Lupus patients take the same dosage that is being suggested for Covid-19 patients – pretty much forever without issue if there are no underlying conditions, without ill effect.

 

It is inaccurate to describe this as a "non peer reviewed study". Peer review was pending.

 

Serious arrythmias are not limited to people with underlying disease. They are a known risk of this drug. And, of course, most people with severe COVID do in fact have underlying chronic diseases.

 

The simple truth is that this, like virtually all medications, does have serious potential side effects. To suggest otherwise is grossly irresponsible. With any medication, if it is proven effective (not as yet the case for this drug) a decision needs to be made as to whether the potential benefits outweigh the risks. That equation will often vary from patient to patient.

 

Research underway will provide data on (1) whether the drug is effective and if so, to what extent, at what dosages, for which patients; (2) the incidence of side effects in populations with COVID; and (3) whether the benefits (if any) outweigh the risks and if so, for whom, etc.

 

Until this data is available it is seriously harmful to aggressively promote this drug.

 

 

 

[WaveHunter]

With all due respect, please don't twist my words around.  I never said that risks were limited only to those with underlying conditions!  Any drug at all has risks to even the healthiest person. I only said that no mention was made of whether or not the subjects had underlying conditions, and that is an important criteria to consider in any credible study.

 

As for the safety and efficacy of Hydroxychloroquine (HCQ) and chloroquine, many doctors have been prescribing it for decades for a variety of conditions and even as a prophylactic (in the case of malaria), so risks are generally acceptable if not contraindicated, and a qualified physician is the one dosing and overseeing the treatment.

 

As with any drug, it all boils down to whether or not benefits outweigh risks, and that should be determined by the patient's physician based on his/her knowledge of the patient's medical history, not by anyone else.

 

No responsible physician or scientist is claiming that this is a cure!  The hope is that it can slow down and minimize the onset of critical symptoms.  It might allow a patient some extra time for his/her innate immune response to start kicking in, perhaps minimize the chance of a visit to ICU, or if that occurs, perhaps shorten the time there and increase the chances of recovery.

 

That's why the FDA has issued an emergency approval for its' use now.  They issued an Emergency Use Authorization for use of chloroquine phosphate and hydroxychloroquine sulfate for the treatment of COVID-19 just a few weeks ago (see link).  They would not have done this if there were serious concerns over safety.

 

The scientific bases for how it might work at preventing the virus from getting into the cell membrane are very sound.  If it can't fuse tot he cell membrane, it can't do any harm!  In the case of zinc, the scientific basis for how it may interfere with the virus' ability to replicate within the cell membrane are compelling , and HCQ enables enables zinc to get inside the cell membrane so it can do this. 

 

To simply ignore the science when these drugs have been safely prescribed for decades, and the science is so promising with regards to Covid-19, it would be irresponsible to not put it to use.

 

Of course, in an “ideal” world, clinical studies and rigorous trials should proceed prescribed use, but we’re hardly in an “ideal” world situation right now. 

 

The HCQ dosage for Covid-19 that are currently being suggested are the exact same dosages being prescribed for Lupus.  Unlike the prescription for Lupus which is for life, the duration of treatment for Covid-19 is only 7 days!  Given this fact, given that doctors have been regularly prescribing it for other conditions safely for decades, and given that the FDA has now approved its' emergency use right now specifically for Covid-19, how can you say its' use is irresponsible? 

 

As for this Brazilian study, they administered 6,000mg over a ten day period, which is almost 3 times the dosage currently suggested!  No wonder heart arrhythmias were detected.  Such overdosages also reduce innate immune response.

 

Irregardless of whether or not a peer-review is pending,  my comment about it not yet being peer-reviewed is accurate...it has not yet been reviewed!  When and if it is reviewed, all the flaws of this study will be criticized, most notably the dosing protocol.  It was not the drug that was at fault.  The fault was in how it was dosed and administered, and probably that treatment was started too late.

 

As far as I'm concerned, the potential benefits of HCQ and Zinc seem to outweigh the risks, and doctors should be the ones who decide what is proper and what is not on behalf of their patients, not you or I. 

 

Edited April 14, 2020 by WaveHunter

[TopDeadSenter]

On 4/7/2020 at 7:59 PM, Oxx said:

 

Jolly good.  India released a totally ineffectual medicine to America to appease a clueless moron.  Trump appears to be some sort of hero (at least in his own tiny mind), whilst Americans will die from taking the placebo.

Life coming fast at some people once again. How many people died as a result of the left bashing and hindering hydroxychloroquine treatment is the more pertinent question at this stage. Blind hatred of Trump led them to rubbish the drug without any proper research at all. How many deaths would be acceptable to point score against Trump? 100? 1,000? 10,000? Emotion over fact, not the first time they did this. Are any of those responsible for what turned out to be another hoax used to bash Trump big enough to offer an apology?

 

"A Henry Ford Health System study shows the controversial anti-malaria drug hydroxychloroquine helps lower the death rate of COVID-19 patients, the Detroit-based health system said Thursday.

Officials with the Michigan health system said the study found the drug “significantly” decreased the death rate of patients involved in the analysis."

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2020/07/02/michigan-henry-ford-health-study-finds-hydroxychloroquine-lowers-covid-19-death-rate/5365090002/

[Oxx]

1 hour ago, TopDeadSenter said:

Life coming fast at some people once again. How many people died as a result of the left bashing and hindering hydroxychloroquine treatment is the more pertinent question at this stage. Blind hatred of Trump led them to rubbish the drug without any proper research at all. How many deaths would be acceptable to point score against Trump? 100? 1,000? 10,000? Emotion over fact, not the first time they did this. Are any of those responsible for what turned out to be another hoax used to bash Trump big enough to offer an apology?

 

"A Henry Ford Health System study shows the controversial anti-malaria drug hydroxychloroquine helps lower the death rate of COVID-19 patients, the Detroit-based health system said Thursday.

Officials with the Michigan health system said the study found the drug “significantly” decreased the death rate of patients involved in the analysis."

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2020/07/02/michigan-henry-ford-health-study-finds-hydroxychloroquine-lowers-covid-19-death-rate/5365090002/

 

Other trials have shown the drug to be pointless at best, and hazardous at worst.  The question must be why did this trial produced a different result? Most likely a flawed methodology.  Unfortunately, the article doesn't provide a reference to the paper, or even (correctly) name a journal, so I can't check.

 

 

[steelepulse]

1 hour ago, Oxx said:

 

Other trials have shown the drug to be pointless at best, and hazardous at worst.  The question must be why did this trial produced a different result? Most likely a flawed methodology.  Unfortunately, the article doesn't provide a reference to the paper, or even (correctly) name a journal, so I can't check.

 

 

Your "other trials" have shown that the dosage was 4 times the amount (2400 mg's) used in the French studies  (which by the way have had great success) and was primarily used on people that were at the end stages of life and their health.  Also doctor Zelenko in NYC has had great numbers with HCQ, Az and Zinc.

 

Feel free to look up Dr Raoult and his studies and outcomes along with Dr Zelenko.

 

 

 

[Sujo]

On 4/6/2020 at 4:03 PM, Kelsall said:

Hogwash.  The OP says it is useless, then bashes Trump, then says it has been demonstrated to be ineffectual.

 

If you read the study, it talks about severe COVID-19 infection and says more research should be done to provide a definitive answer.

 

Use of the drug should be done early on, before severe infection.

 

Still, quite a stealthy Trump bashing and the OP is to be commended for that. LOL.  BTW Cuomo has said it should be tried.

Then why did trump stop taking it.

[Oxx]

factcheck.org has done a writeup of the trial.  It's pretty damning.  To quote one paragraph

 

Quote

"The Henry Ford study, which was published in the International Journal of Infectious Diseases on July 1, looked back at the outcomes of 2,541 patients who were admitted to the hospital system and were given hydroxychloroquine, the antibiotic azithromycin, both drugs or neither. It was observational and did not randomize patients to treatment groups, nor did it blind patients or physicians to the medications that were given."

 

There's a lot more in the article, but it's pretty clear that the trial was utterly scientifically worthless.  Hydroxycholorquine remains useless against the virus, despite what Trump supporters and other morons might like to believe.

 

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/07/navarro-doesnt-give-full-picture-on-hydroxychloroquine/