Salary Decrease for unforseeable future

[jumbo]

Exactly Frits..... these and others that are working in a similar manner should not be supported or bailed out. Governments should let them file for bankruptcy, the owners will have some red faces for sure and will not like it as their 'reputation' is at stake.. 

Put the governments/taxpayers money is social funds for the employees, probably cheaper for the state anyway... and no repeats in the future..

Since 2008 everyone is looking for state buy-outs whenever anyone in the board farts

[robblok]

54 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

As a business owner you can make a fortune or go bust, that is entrepreneurship. As an employee people seek security. You want to have it both ways. Look at Richard Branson with Virgin, he has his company in a tax heaven, doesn't pay any tax in the UK. He stops paying his employees and asks the UK for billions to bail him out. He doesn't want to sell his 60 million pound private island.

Good point though if a business goes bust because of corvid the employees are gone too. Better to take a cut in salary and both come out the winner. Your example is not typical, if a business has reserves these need to be applied first before asking employees to take a cut. 

[jumbo]

14 minutes ago, robblok said:

Good point though if a business goes bust because of corvid the employees are gone too. Better to take a cut in salary and both come out the winner. Your example is not typical, if a business has reserves these need to be applied first before asking employees to take a cut. 

reserves and cashflow are two different things..

the first is technical, the latter actual... and most of the times the two won't match

 

[robblok]

15 minutes ago, jumbo said:

reserves and cashflow are two different things..

the first is technical, the latter actual... and most of the times the two won't match

 

Point being for me that in the example that was mentioned the guy should not be bailed out. If there is no money in a company then as per Thai law and even other law you can lay people off simple as that. But i would say its better to sometimes take a hit as an employee and as a company together to make sure both survive. Seems the best option for me. I seen it before but this is of course only the case when the company and the owner of the company has no money. Not when they have enough.

[Big Guns]

The private & International schools get enough perks as it is, they certainly don't deserve a bail out. Their generous perks include; they pay zero corporation tax, exemption from social security payments for teaching staff (certainly the case for international schools) and the ability to put foreign teaching staff on temporary contracts which contradicts labour law. The international school terms will start as planned on April 20th but all teaching will be online. It will mean in effect more work for the same pay for teaching staff. I suppose at least it isn't a pay cut!

[jumbo]

1 hour ago, robblok said:

Point being for me that in the example that was mentioned the guy should not be bailed out. If there is no money in a company then as per Thai law and even other law you can lay people off simple as that. But i would say its better to sometimes take a hit as an employee and as a company together to make sure both survive. Seems the best option for me. I seen it before but this is of course only the case when the company and the owner of the company has no money. Not when they have enough.

Laying off is not as simple as you think... there are severance payments per time served and that can be huge. These amounts are the provisions you are referring to in your example. Almost all companies are finance by banks/institutions supported by personal guarantees from owners or parent companies. These can be demand for fulfillment by said banker/institution and owners will have to come with these funds as they are signed off on by said owners.

Unions will not simply accept 'lay-offs' unless there is a serious commercial consequence due to C19 or whatever reason and will threat with strikes from all personnel including non union members and that will mean the end for everything

 

[robblok]

1 hour ago, jumbo said:

Laying off is not as simple as you think... there are severance payments per time served and that can be huge. These amounts are the provisions you are referring to in your example. Almost all companies are finance by banks/institutions supported by personal guarantees from owners or parent companies. These can be demand for fulfillment by said banker/institution and owners will have to come with these funds as they are signed off on by said owners.

Unions will not simply accept 'lay-offs' unless there is a serious commercial consequence due to C19 or whatever reason and will threat with strikes from all personnel including non union members and that will mean the end for everything

 

I think we are talking about different kinds of companies. As an accountant most of my clients are small companies. Maybe with a few employees these people are not guaranteed by banks and the personal possesions of the owners are not that much. Quite often the judge will then allow layoffs. In this case its better for a employee to take a (temporary) paycut then to lose it all. 

 

Then again there is such a thing in my country as support from the state when someone gets fired. I have seen it before that employees took paycuts and later when the company was healthy they would go back to their normal salary. But we are talking about smaller companies with normal people as owners who just also just get by. 

[jumbo]

14 minutes ago, robblok said:

I think we are talking about different kinds of companies. As an accountant most of my clients are small companies. Maybe with a few employees these people are not guaranteed by banks and the personal possesions of the owners are not that much. Quite often the judge will then allow layoffs. In this case its better for a employee to take a (temporary) paycut then to lose it all. 

 

Then again there is such a thing in my country as support from the state when someone gets fired. I have seen it before that employees took paycuts and later when the company was healthy they would go back to their normal salary. But we are talking about smaller companies with normal people as owners who just also just get by. 

We are talking different companies, to me the smaller companies that cannot handle the 2-3 month suspension are not very viable..

We are also from the same country and you and I know that normally the kind of support we have over there is not the same as here, but the current support offered through SS is not too shabby at all and could keep SME's up

The larger ones are those I was referring too, lay off 2-3-4-5-600 workers is not that simple and these companies have the fat. moved to another country/tax haven, and guarantees and those will be called upon and should be called upon

[recom273]

6 hours ago, donnacha said:

Just remember: Teaching is a vocation. You're not in it for the money.

 

Are you taking the <deleted> ?

 

its not a charity either .. education is a business in this country, plain and simple. 

[Scott]

This is the teaching forum.   Stay on the topic of teaching and schools and keep it civil.  

 

[jumbo]

Coming back to the issue and the teachers, I understand the schools do not have to apply for SS so the state/SS will not directly help them, however the suspension law should guarantee them 75% of their salary until reopening. I would look for legal consult but you would risk your continued employment 

[jackdd]

On 4/10/2020 at 9:39 AM, jumbo said:

You all must read the suspension law; https://brslawyers.com/news/coronavirus-covid-19-update-for-employers-in-thailand/

 

They can and they are doing it as we speak...up to 75% of wages, anything lower you can discuss with your SS agent 

If we assume that this article, which doesn't provide any sources, is correct:

They say "if an employer is incapable of operating its business as normal for whatever reason".

Most likely they mean: If the business can't generate income.

Did the government stop giving money to the government schools? I assume they are still getting paid by the government, so imho this would not be a reason to reduce the wages.

[DJ54]

I’ve retired once in awhile I get copied on emails ... this is annual sales 2019 $25/billion....

 

The email included “de facto establishing the situation of force majeure” 

 

i may be wrong but sounds like they’re giving themselves wiggle 

room.

 

 

[Number 6]

It all goes back to the quality of your school and the administration. Most importantly the value you bring to what you are teaching and doing on campus. Perhaps all those teachers who have been doing the minimum including office hours do have something to worry about. No sense in worrying, you'll find out soon enough. I'd be shocked if even under contract are paid May - June unless working. You can forget October break and you'll definitely be working through March. On the bright side there will be far fewer complaints about bored teachers with "nothing to do" in March. 

 

I definitely see adjustments ahead and an entire rethink about the importance of English in general in the new normal. More directly the importance of foreign non productive, expensive staff when 12 million Thai are out of work.

[Ventenio]

yes, this happened.  Sure, you can go to the labor department but then I think you will need to go to BKK for court.  That's a headache for under 50,000 baht IMO.  Next year I'll see a slight decline in pay, maybe only a few thousand baht a month; however, I'm surprised there weren't more school actively recruiting.  Maybe in a month it will be different.  

 

In the big picture, for ESL teachers, it shouldn't matter at all.  Thailand isn't for saving money and going back home with significant savings.  Teaching here for decades seems comical.  Online seems stressful if your internet connection isn't great.  I don't want that class-by-class stress, but maybe I do.  

 

anyhow, i'm curious about the Filipinos and other NNES.  Then I'm curious if a student gets COVID.  Or what if I do?  

 

I don't have a family, so as long as I don't take money out of my bank back home (haven't in almost four years), I'll be OK when I go back from this experience.  

 

oh, I'll only work for government schools.  They get paid no matter what.  Private schools are OK if you know how to use your leverage and play the game, but now isn't the time to play games.  I thought it might be, but not if they get less students because their parents don't have the money.  Private schools are generally very cash rich, don't kid yourselves; however, you would have to be their only farang to get what you want.  or i need to learn how to play the game better.  

 

 

[otherstuff1957]

Private and Government schools in Thailand operate under different sets of laws.

 

Government school teachers are civil servants and cannot be fired or laid off arbitrarily.  However, foreign teachers cannot be Thai civil servants and do not have the same protections or rights.  Foreign teachers are temporary employees and can be terminated at any time, though some have successfully argued for severance pay in Thai Labor Court.

 

Teachers at private schools, including International Schools, are NOT covered by Thai labor law.  Although I have been told that the intent of the law was that teachers at private schools should have equivalent rights as other employees, that is not always how judges rule in cases of unfair termination or termination with severance pay.

 

To sum this all up, foreign teachers do not have the same rights as the maids who clean up the school, no matter which kind of school they work at!

[Big Guns]

3 hours ago, otherstuff1957 said:

Private and Government schools in Thailand operate under different sets of laws.

 

Government school teachers are civil servants and cannot be fired or laid off arbitrarily.  However, foreign teachers cannot be Thai civil servants and do not have the same protections or rights.  Foreign teachers are temporary employees and can be terminated at any time, though some have successfully argued for severance pay in Thai Labor Court.

 

Teachers at private schools, including International Schools, are NOT covered by Thai labor law.  Although I have been told that the intent of the law was that teachers at private schools should have equivalent rights as other employees, that is not always how judges rule in cases of unfair termination or termination with severance pay.

 

To sum this all up, foreign teachers do not have the same rights as the maids who clean up the school, no matter which kind of school they work at!

Teachers at private and international schools ARE covered by labour law. I know as I won a severance case against an international school in 2018. There is case precedent at the supreme court which has been posted on this forum in both Thai and English. The supreme court ruled that the teachers in the case were covered by labour law and were entitled to severance. However, if you go to a labour court and don't cite this case you will be unsuccessful as the private school act states that teachers aren't covered by labour law and foreign teachers aren't entitled to severance. Hence you must cite and include the case in the pack that you submit to the court.

Judgment of the Supreme Court 18406_Full Version.docx

[BobbyL]

20 hours ago, Big Guns said:

Teachers at private and international schools ARE covered by labour law. I know as I won a severance case against an international school in 2018. There is case precedent at the supreme court which has been posted on this forum in both Thai and English. The supreme court ruled that the teachers in the case were covered by labour law and were entitled to severance. However, if you go to a labour court and don't cite this case you will be unsuccessful as the private school act states that teachers aren't covered by labour law and foreign teachers aren't entitled to severance. Hence you must cite and include the case in the pack that you submit to the court.

Judgment of the Supreme Court 18406_Full Version.docx 22.23 kB · 1 download

Definitely true. I also know someone who was wrongly dismissed and he took the school to court and won his full severance pay. 

[clarky cat]

is there any official word on government cuts for foreign teachers?

 

sounds like schools/agencies are using covid to cash in, but i guess they do the same for everything non-covid related

[Neeranam]

On 4/24/2020 at 2:34 PM, clarky cat said:

is there any official word on government cuts for foreign teachers?

 

sounds like schools/agencies are using covid to cash in, but i guess they do the same for everything non-covid related

They can't cut your salary unless you agree. You can go to the labour court and take them to court. If the school doesn't close, 'force majeure' does not apply.

 

 

[Number 6]

Starting in July? August?

 

Watch the directors pocket your salary but you still pay the tax.

 

Just too easy.