Johnson under fire over handling of coronavirus crisis

[Tippaporn]

Just now, Chomper Higgot said:

Ad Hominem.

Hardly. 

[7by7]

1 hour ago, CG1 Blue said:

Johnson was following the advice of SAGE and NERVTAG. At the time when he didn't attend the COBRA meetings, SAGE and NERVTAG advised that the Covid 19 threat level was only 'moderate'. All the relevant experts and department heads were at those meetings. 

The Times article you are referring to is riddled with contradictions and inconsistencies. It is sensationalising for the sake of it. Articles like this bank on people not reading thoroughly enough, or researching, and falling for the sound bites. 

 

Micheal Gove gave an answer very similar to yours to Sky's Sophy Ridge on Sunday and then contradicted himself on most points later that morning to the BBC's Andrew Marr!

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/19/michael-gove-fails-to-deny-pm-missed-five-coronavirus-cobra-meetings

[kingdong]

48 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

China are not responsible for the UK Government’s response to the Pandemic.

No they,'re just responsible for starting it lest we forget.

[7by7]

1 hour ago, 3NUMBAS said:

he is not required to go to every cobra meeting as he can use his underlings

That is true, but even when the seriousness of the pandemic was becoming more and more apparent he still preferred to stay in the country with his girlfriend. 

[Yinn]

2 hours ago, 7by7 said:

I see the BoJo apologists are out and about. 

 

Let them answer this: if Johnson's initial response was the best he could do at the time, why did he deliberately not attend five Cobra meetings on the virus? 

 

That's not a mistake, that's not even incompetence. That's ignoring his responsibility as Prime Minister. 

Boris ignore all the rule. Everyone talk about wash the hand often. Use alcohol gel. Do NOT touch face with hand etc. Not wear mask. Not social distance. 

He think it joke? 

He proud to say he go to corona hospital and shake everybody hand! 

He the only leader to get corona. 

 

How many people he spread? Serious question.

 

Unbelievable he shake everyone hand in corona hospital!!! Why nobody stop him do it? Scared?

 

 

[7by7]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

China are not responsible for the UK Government’s response to the Pandemic.

 

18 minutes ago, kingdong said:

No they,'re just responsible for starting it lest we forget.

 

Responsible for starting it? 

 

The first cases of this particular stain of a virus first identified in the USA (North Dakota to be precise) nearly 90 years ago may have occurred in China. 

 

It may even have somehow escaped from a lab there. 

 

But are you seriously suggesting the Chinese are responsible for deliberately releasing and spreading it? 

 

Are you that paranoid, or just a Sinophobe? 

[Rookiescot]

Dear oh dear. Johnson and his apologists keep claiming they listened  to experts.

Now I would like someone to ask the question "Which experts?"

Because from what I can gather he listened to the ones he liked the sound of and ignored all the others.

He is Prime Minister. It was HIS call.

He got it wrong.

[FritsSikkink]

3 hours ago, steve187 said:

everyone in power is to blame and only the parties not in power have the answers to what should be done,

its no time for the blame game, its time to look after the health professionals

Which the government hasn't done in the last 10 years.

[7by7]

1 hour ago, CG1 Blue said:

I agree the PPE situation has been handled abysmally. The government should have appointed a person / team to oversee the process much earlier. 

 

But you should also know that UK law prohibits government ministers from interfering in the NHS procurement process. There are people within NHS management being paid a lot of money to manage NHS procurement. They also need to be held accountable. 

 

 

 

These days individual trusts obtain their supplies through the NHS supply chain. 

 

This is managed by Supply Chain Coordination Limited (SCCL). The company is wholly owned by the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care. 

 

So if UK law prohibits ministers from interfering in the procurement process, how come the company running it is owned by the Secretary of State? 

 

The buck stops with him. 

[smedly]

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

 

I cannot find the interview to which you refer. Neither can I find an organisation with a name anything like the one you sort of remember. 

 

I did find this BBC interview with the director of the National Care Forum.

 

Most care homes in the UK are non profit organisations funded in part by the NHS. You seem to be confusing care homes with retirement homes, most of which are as you describe. 

wrong 

 

they are private nursing homes - I know more about it than you could imagine - one my ex girlfriends was a senior executive and managed their training programs - they were in the private sector - nothing to do with government or NHS

 

https://www.carehome.co.uk/care_search_results.cfm/searchcountry/uk/searchchtype/private

Edited April 22, 2020 by smedly

[vinny41]

19 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

These days individual trusts obtain their supplies through the NHS supply chain. 

 

This is managed by Supply Chain Coordination Limited (SCCL). The company is wholly owned by the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care. 

 

So if UK law prohibits ministers from interfering in the procurement process, how come the company running it is owned by the Secretary of State? 

 

The buck stops with him. 

Supply Chain Coordination Limited is owned by the Department of Health so its owned by the UK Goverment

Department of Health sets up company to oversee £2bn savings drive

https://www.hsj.co.uk/finance-and-efficiency/department-of-health-sets-up-company-to-oversee-2bn-savings-drive/7021942.article

[tribalfusion001]

Most governments in Europe didn't take SARS CoV2 seriously, UK the least, the PM shaking hands and attending a rugby match, then letting the Cheltenham festival go ahead. Johnson was good on HIGNFY and that's about it.

 

I was in BKK until 25th March and I was messaging friends in the UK telling them about this virus in Wuhan, China. I told them it was serious and will reach Europe soon, they didn't believe me and thought it would go away. I posted photos on Facebook with myself wearing a mask in a mall, people thought I was crazy in the UK, well I maybe ting tong but not baa mak 555

[vinny41]

2 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 

I cannot find the interview to which you refer. Neither can I find an organisation with a name anything like the one you sort of remember. 

 

I did find this BBC interview with the director of the National Care Forum.

 

Most care homes in the UK are non profit organisations funded in part by the NHS. You seem to be confusing care homes with retirement homes, most of which are as you describe. 

Most Care Homes in the UK are businesses and they are there to make a profit charging between £750-£1800 per week depending on location. As for NHS funding for care homes the majority get no assistance  it unless you have no assets and savings below £23,000

then your care home fees will be funded by the local council not the NHS 

https://caretobedifferent.co.uk/

[smedly]

5 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Most Care Homes in the UK are businesses and they are there to make a profit charging between £750-£1800 per week depending on location. As for NHS funding for care homes the majority get no assistance  it unless you have no assets and savings below £23,000

then your care home fees will be funded by the local council not the NHS 

https://caretobedifferent.co.uk/

exactly - they run their own show and are ultimately responsible for their own actions - mainstream media are hiding this from the general public and trying to pass the blame - it is shameful

 

I hope at some future date those responsible for these private care homes are held to account 

[7by7]

13 minutes ago, smedly said:

wrong 

 

they are private nursing homes - I know more about it than you could imagine - one my ex girlfriends was a senior executive and managed their training programs - they were in the private sector - nothing to do with government or NHS

 

https://www.carehome.co.uk/care_search_results.cfm/searchcountry/uk/searchchtype/private

 

I didn't say 'all,' I said 'most.'

 

I, too, know a bit about this as my mother spent the end of her life in a non profit care home, paid for by the NHS. 

 

Your link doesn't work for me, but the words 'searchtype/private' shows you were highly selective in your search. 

 

Chomper Higgot posted a link to the care quality commission earlier; here it is again:-

https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/care-quality-commission. 

 

I suggest you read it. 

[CG1 Blue]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

There was stark disagreement between the nation’s ‘top Experts....’, not all were on board with Johnson’s Failed Herd Immunity Experiment, as Imperial College London demonstrated.

 

There was no Johnson herd immunity experiment. Stick to the facts, otherwise you just sound like another disgruntled Boris hater. 

 

Furthermore, you need to understand how government works in the UK. The government follows the overall group advice from SAGE and NERVTAG. There will always be disagreement between the various experts. But they cannot choose to go with the dissenting voices and overrule the official advice group. 

Edited April 22, 2020 by CG1 Blue

[vinny41]

2 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

I didn't say 'all,' I said 'most.'

 

I, too, know a bit about this as my mother spent the end of her life in a non profit care home, paid for by the NHS. 

 

Your link doesn't work for me, but the words 'searchtype/private' shows you were highly selective in your search. 

 

Chomper Higgot posted a link to the care quality commission earlier; here it is again:-

https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/care-quality-commission. 

 

I suggest you read it. 

The Care Quality Commission (CQC) regulates all health and social care services in England. The commission ensures the quality and safety of care in hospitals, dentists, ambulances, and care homes, and the care given in people’s own homes.

The Care Quality Commision is a regulator nothing more , similar to ofcom Ofcom is the regulator for the communications services that we use and rely on each day

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, 7by7 said:

I see the BoJo apologists are out and about. 

 

Let them answer this: if Johnson's initial response was the best he could do at the time, why did he deliberately not attend five Cobra meetings on the virus? 

 

That's not a mistake, that's not even incompetence. That's ignoring his responsibility as Prime Minister. 

And that's hindsight in a nutshell. Wonderful thing.

[vinny41]

2 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

Your desperation is showing. 

 

You'll be blaming it all on the last Labour government next! 

Your are Correct it was the last Labour Government

Agony aunt attacks Blair for 'betrayal of elderly'

The Government has opted to adopt a system in which elderly people who go into care homes will have to pay for their "personal care". Only "nursing care", which will be tightly defined and restricted, will be paid for by the state.Many pensioners will receive as little as £35 a week to fund a care home place, which can cost as much as £300-£400 a week. They will be forced to use their savings and also sell their homes to fund their stay in a nursing home.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1341366/Agony-aunt-attacks-Blair-for-betrayal-of-elderly.html

[CG1 Blue]

1 hour ago, Rookiescot said:

Dear oh dear. Johnson and his apologists keep claiming they listened  to experts.

Now I would like someone to ask the question "Which experts?"

Because from what I can gather he listened to the ones he liked the sound of and ignored all the others.

He is Prime Minister. It was HIS call.

He got it wrong.

He followed the government advisors, SAGE and NERVTAG. That is quite the opposite of picking the ones he liked the sound of. 

As with many Scots, some very good friends of mine, this situation is just being used as a chance to bash Boris. It's not really a surprise you're laying into him right now. 

Remember, the Scottish government went along with the same strategy. All 4 governments of the UK did. 

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

China are not responsible for the UK Government’s response to the Pandemic.

True. But China is responsible for the UK Government having to respond.

[CG1 Blue]

54 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

These days individual trusts obtain their supplies through the NHS supply chain. 

 

This is managed by Supply Chain Coordination Limited (SCCL). The company is wholly owned by the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care. 

 

So if UK law prohibits ministers from interfering in the procurement process, how come the company running it is owned by the Secretary of State? 

 

The buck stops with him. 

The idea is that you have experts in the field controlling the procurement process. Why would a government minister (a politician) be in a position to control procurement? Do we want it run by experts or politicians? 

[CG1 Blue]

34 minutes ago, tribalfusion001 said:

Most governments in Europe didn't take SARS CoV2 seriously, UK the least, the PM shaking hands and attending a rugby match, then letting the Cheltenham festival go ahead. Johnson was good on HIGNFY and that's about it.

 

I was in BKK until 25th March and I was messaging friends in the UK telling them about this virus in Wuhan, China. I told them it was serious and will reach Europe soon, they didn't believe me and thought it would go away. I posted photos on Facebook with myself wearing a mask in a mall, people thought I was crazy in the UK, well I maybe ting tong but not baa mak 555

Fair point, but don't forget the UK and most of Europe escaped unscathed from the previous pandemics. I'm sure after Covid 19 we'll take future pandemics much more seriously. Hindsight is a wonderful thing! 

[Logosone]

The problem when you abdicate responsibility, and Boris Johnson was very careful to make clear he was taking the lead from the scientists and advisers, is that if those advisers get it badly wrong, as the UK scientific advisers did, then a PM in charge sees his reputation suffer. Just as Merkel sees her reputation rise, though she did sweet f all, simple because German scientists are doing excellent work. Success rubs off. Failure rubs off.

 

It was not Boris Johnson's fault that Neil Ferguson did not query PHE when they replied there would be no test kits. It was not his fault that when UK biotech companies were offering 99% accurate tests PHE refused them because they claimed uncertainty as to reliability. It was not BJ's fault when Matt Hancock's deal with South Korea fell apart because PHE had to test the test kits but did not get round to it on time.

 

All the many, many mistakes that were made in the UK were not, strictly speaking, BJ's fault. However, his health minister performed poorly, his advisers performed poorly, PHE performed poorly and ultimately BJ will have to pay the price for this because he is the public face of the state. Just as Merkel, wholly undeservedly, gets to reap the benefit of German expert's work on the virus pandemic.

 

Tough gig, politics.

[Chomper Higgot]

51 minutes ago, smedly said:

exactly - they run their own show and are ultimately responsible for their own actions - mainstream media are hiding this from the general public and trying to pass the blame - it is shameful

 

I hope at some future date those responsible for these private care homes are held to account 

Wrong again:

 

They are answerable to the Care Quality Commission.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/care-quality-commission

[Chomper Higgot]

31 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

Fair point, but don't forget the UK and most of Europe escaped unscathed from the previous pandemics. I'm sure after Covid 19 we'll take future pandemics much more seriously. Hindsight is a wonderful thing! 

Not as good as a bit of foresight, of which Johnson has demonstrated none.

[metisdead]

Some off topic posts and replies have been removed. 

[jesimps]

11 hours ago, 7by7 said:

I see the BoJo apologists are out and about. 

 

Let them answer this: if Johnson's initial response was the best he could do at the time, why did he deliberately not attend five Cobra meetings on the virus? 

 

That's not a mistake, that's not even incompetence. That's ignoring his responsibility as Prime Minister. 

Here we go, the lefty experts coming out of the woodwork, pointing fingers about the govts response to something that's never happened in our lifetime and has no precedent. Of course mistakes will have been made, but the duty of govt is to learn by them. I imagine that at the end, there still won't be a definitive answer. I shudder to think what Corbyn and his incompetent idiots would've done if they'd been in power. The one thing I don't understand, is why they're still letting flights into the country, especially the ones full of East Eupropean farm workers.

[kingdong]

9 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 

 

Responsible for starting it? 

 

The first cases of this particular stain of a virus first identified in the USA (North Dakota to be precise) nearly 90 years ago may have occurred in China. 

 

It may even have somehow escaped from a lab there. 

 

But are you seriously suggesting the Chinese are responsible for deliberately releasing and spreading it? 

 

Are you that paranoid, or just a sinophobe

What are you on about,you,'re obviously going thru life to the beat of a drum i,'ll never hear,stop trying to put words in people's mouths,and by the way"sinophobe" is not in the Oxford English dictionary.

[Chomper Higgot]

29 minutes ago, jesimps said:

Here we go, the lefty experts coming out of the woodwork, pointing fingers about the govts response to something that's never happened in our lifetime and has no precedent. Of course mistakes will have been made, but the duty of govt is to learn by them. I imagine that at the end, there still won't be a definitive answer. I shudder to think what Corbyn and his incompetent idiots would've done if they'd been in power. The one thing I don't understand, is why they're still letting flights into the country, especially the ones full of East Eupropean farm workers.

The ‘Duty of Government’ is not to learn from its mistakes.

 

https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/role/parliament-government/

 

In a democracy a Government is held accountable for its failings.