Thai govt to decide on extending emergency decree, easing COVID-19 restrictions

[overherebc]

Doesn't it all boil down to the difference between 'died of' and 'died with'.

[Walter Travolta]

4 minutes ago, idiot farang said:

The irony to me is that, in our own countries, we are told we must respect any customs of any foreigners (sorry, asylum seekers) and cast aside our own historic norms. The same people tell us we can have no opinion in a country we were not born in.

 

And then... they call US hypocrits.

 

If nothing else, the mental gymnastics they do effortlessly is impressive. 

Oh I saw through this years ago, its exactly how the left con the black community in the states. Convince them we are good by calling the others bad haha. They have no idea of their own hypocrisy and constantly hit you with memes as debate. Im glad Im not them I really am

[Walter Travolta]

4 minutes ago, overherebc said:

Doesn't it all boil down to the difference between 'died of' and 'died with'.

You would think so. An example, my grandad died of pneumonia in the 80s, he contracted it in hospital and never came out. If that would have been today and he also contracted cv19, who knows what would have been on his death certificate? I certainly would be kicking off if he was placed in a plywood box and placed in a mass grave . . .  and people think this is normal hahaha I really am astounded that so many dont think there is something sinister happening

[belfast3]

2 minutes ago, Walter Travolta said:

Oh dear. Im not deflecting anything. I will take anyone head on and if I am proven wrong then fair enough. Im not one of those who gets proven wrong and cannot accept it and continues way into the night 'deflecting'. 

Im not sure what makes you think I believe that when someone dies of pneumonia its down to Covid. I said that the death cert will have covid on there. So I believe they died because they had Covid ON TOP OF pneumonia. Thats why I asked for a link of COVID ONLY DEATHS WHERE THERE WERE NO UNDERLYING CONDITIONS. Which would show the REAL number of deaths from ONLY cv19. Hope you get that this time

Like you say, you 'believe' that's the case - there's no evidence. Someone can enter the hospital on the brink of death due to flu pneumonia, come into contact with C19 in the hospital, that doesn't mean they died exclusively of C19, but they are being categorised as if they were (the cause of is ONLY counted as C19, not flu). This is a misrepresentation of the numbers, so we don't know the 'real' number.

[idiot farang]

25 minutes ago, The Barmbeker said:

Please enlighten me: how do you know, you were right?

Thailand has totally insuficient test results!

The numbers make no sense and if you were as clever as you pretend to be, you should know it!

Well, if this virus were even a fraction of what people like you make it out to be, the hospital beds would be full and the death toll exponentially higher.

 

Ya know, you're actually allowed to use your own brain to employ some deductive reasoning. Everything you think doesn't have to come from propaganda- though that's clearly your default setting, and the toggle switch has gone missing.

 

[KhaoYai]

2 hours ago, HHTel said:

Well that must go for our neighbours too.  Cambodia, Laos, Vietnam and Myanmar.  All have lower numbers than Thailand.  Even Hong Kong have less than ourselves.

They're all lying???

Yes, I'd suggest they are either lying, don't have a reliable system of reporting or both. You have to remember that the truth in S.E. Asia takes a different form to the truth in western countries. Note that non of the countries you mention are democracies - a word that also seems to have a different meaning in S.E. Asia.

 

In a country that doesn't seem to give a damn about the thousands of deaths on its roads every year (deaths that could be massively reduced by simply applying the law), what do you think gets priority - the economy or health?

 

There are many claims that the temperature in Thailand is keeping the virus at bay - no explanation of what's currently happening in Singapore though.

 

If Thailand has some secret recipe that is preventing infections from spreading, they could make a fortune by selling it to other countries where the virus is rampant.

[overherebc]

30 minutes ago, belfast3 said:

Like you say, you 'believe' that's the case - there's no evidence. Someone can enter the hospital on the brink of death due to flu pneumonia, come into contact with C19 in the hospital, that doesn't mean they died exclusively of C19, but they are being categorised as if they were (the cause of is ONLY counted as C19, not flu). This is a misrepresentation of the numbers, so we don't know the 'real' number.

Thing I can't get my head around is the 'final' benefit to anyone, individuals or governments from the lockdowns. To go there would/may be classed as conspiracy theories which is a no-no.

I am really sitting on the fence between lockdown and let it run its course even if at my age I'm in one of the 'at risk' groups, over 70 blah blah.

Not something I find easy to decide.

[KhaoYai]

4 hours ago, sandyf said:

People that live in Thailand do so as a concession by the Thai government and have no say in how that concession is implemented.

So you're saying eat sh*t are you?

[VBF]

14 minutes ago, overherebc said:

Thing I can't get my head around is the 'final' benefit to anyone, individuals or governments from the lockdowns. To go there would/may be classed as conspiry theories which is a no-no.

I am really sitting on the fence between lockdown and let it run its course even if at my age I'm in one of the 'at risk' groups, over 70 blah blah.

Not something I find easy to decide.

Agree with what you say 100% 

[VBF]

45 minutes ago, Walter Travolta said:

You would think so. An example, my grandad died of pneumonia in the 80s, he contracted it in hospital and never came out. If that would have been today and he also contracted cv19, who knows what would have been on his death certificate? I certainly would be kicking off if he was placed in a plywood box and placed in a mass grave . . .  and people think this is normal hahaha I really am astounded that so many dont think there is something sinister happening

There certainly is something sinister going on. What? I just do not know!

To amplify your point, there is TOTALLY insufficient distinction made between people dying OF CV and dying WITH CV which I believe is what @overherebc alluded to just now (#363) along with his reference to conspiracy theories...which I presume we are barred from discussing.

Do correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[belfast3]

30 minutes ago, overherebc said:

Thing I can't get my head around is the 'final' benefit to anyone, individuals or governments from the lockdowns. To go there would/may be classed as conspiracy theories which is a no-no.

I am really sitting on the fence between lockdown and let it run its course even if at my age I'm in one of the 'at risk' groups, over 70 blah blah.

Not something I find easy to decide.

It's going to have to run it's course at some point, unless the lockdown is maintained until a vaccine is ready – which is never going to be the case. I think the lockdown makes sense to give healthcare systems time to prepare, but continuing them now makes almost no sense whatsoever.

It's more like government incompetence rather than a conspiracy.

[overherebc]

21 minutes ago, belfast3 said:

It's going to have to run it's course at some point, unless the lockdown is maintained until a vaccine is ready – which is never going to be the case. I think the lockdown makes sense to give healthcare systems time to prepare, but continuing them now makes almost no sense whatsoever.

It's more like government incompetence rather than a conspiracy.

Obviously everyone uses the 'world wide web' to try and keep up with news around the world on 'everything'  Good in most ways, but, it's 'wide' open to a lot of stuff on the conspiracy theory side of things so I understand why the 'conspiracy' post are not allowed.

I would imagine most, if not all, governments are confused on the best direction to go so they pick an option based on the info' they have at the 'time' and that might change daily or weekly depending on 'their' experts ideas. For me all I can say is I'm glad it's not me making those decisions. In the world of politics there are always those who say/know nothing but are ready to jump and question the decisions made, puely for their own political gain. Nature of the beast.

[Walter Travolta]

2 hours ago, belfast3 said:

Like you say, you 'believe' that's the case - there's no evidence. Someone can enter the hospital on the brink of death due to flu pneumonia, come into contact with C19 in the hospital, that doesn't mean they died exclusively of C19, but they are being categorised as if they were (the cause of is ONLY counted as C19, not flu)

That is what I am trying to say although, my bad, I should have said that that is what they make us believe, that deaths are caused by covid when they already have underlying issues as opposed to dying solely from covid. So my apologies there ????
So, if we can look at what I was trying to say, How many deaths are there that are due to covid ONLY? As in those who had NO underlying ailments? Im asking a question, as I said earlier I dont claim facts unless I know its a fact. Im not a doctor obviously but the flu can kill, all by itself can it not? So can covid but it seems covid only kills on a large scale when it 'teams up' with other ailments already existing? Same with pneumonia, it can kill by itself but add covid into the mix and it looks like curtains, but covid alone isnt killing the amount of people on its own that the figures would have you believe. The example being that most people who contract covid, yet have no underlying ailments, recover

[Walter Travolta]

2 hours ago, overherebc said:

Thing I can't get my head around is the 'final' benefit to anyone, individuals or governments from the lockdowns. To go there would/may be classed as conspiracy theories which is a no-no.

I am really sitting on the fence between lockdown and let it run its course even if at my age I'm in one of the 'at risk' groups, over 70 blah blah.

Not something I find easy to decide.

A very sensible way of looking at it from someone of your years. If there was no lockdown and things were standard, you have the choice to stay in to protect yourself or not. We all should have that option no matter what age IMO because those who wish to take the risk, will or will not get it. That is up to the individual. The same goes for those who wish to isolate. To be honest, if that was the status quo, wouldnt that herd immunity make the problem go away quicker for everyone involved? Even those choosing to stay in would see a quicker end to this without risking their own health. I see that as a win win but hey, no doubt I will be corrected on an opinion haha

[Walter Travolta]

2 hours ago, VBF said:

There certainly is something sinister going on. What? I just do not know!

To amplify your point, there is TOTALLY insufficient distinction made between people dying OF CV and dying WITH CV which I believe is what @overherebc alluded to just now (#363) along with his reference to conspiracy theories...which I presume we are barred from discussing.

Do correct me if I'm wrong.

 

It is mostly speculation but China released this virus, fact. It didnt escape and it wasnt because of bat soup haha. They released that 'fact' back in January yet went back on it when everyone called BS and then they said it 'escaped'. Anyone who believes that should be an extra in the Green Day video Basket Case!!
China released the virus for a reason, my guess is to disable the world economically. But they didnt bank on the truth coming out and it ending up biting them on the a$$ economically (yet to be seen how that plays out). However, whether any other governments were in on it is yet to be outed, as many have said it is a way of decreasing the population so as not to have the elderly collecting pensions and taking money from governments that obviously the governments arent happy paying. Maybe this is why the state pension age keeps rising? Im 52 and I took a private pension out over 25 years when I was 25 and when I enquired about it 2 years ago when it 'ended' I was told I cannot have any of it until I hit 55. So I contested it in a discussion, nothing legal, just over the phone and I was basically fobbed off with . . . "Its a government decision that we have no control over" which prompted me to ask "But this is a private pension, not a state pension, so how can the government dictate to me when I can or cannot have it, I have planned to use this money and all those plans I now have to reconsider. What if I get to 55 and they do the same again? Thats just not right" Again they just parroted their initial comment. So when people say things about conspiracy theories, it doesnt mean they are wacky claims.
Back to China and already many places are taking legal action against them and I only hope they end up with the rest of the world stop buying their products. They own farms and ports in Australia where they take the dairy products to their own ports that only they are allowed to use and ship it over to China whilst Aussie supermarkets often have very little on their shelves. Thats down to Aus for allowing it in the first place but make a deal with a smiling man and he will take you given the chance.
The west should start being like China and Thailand etc where at any point, they can say "Right, off you pop, we want you gone, lock stock and barrel". Until that time comes, Im afraid the west will continue to have its pants pulled down ????

As for the deaths, all I asked from Belfast3 was to show me the amount of deaths caused or recorded by covid alone, still waiting ????

[belfast3]

1 hour ago, Walter Travolta said:

That is what I am trying to say although, my bad, I should have said that that is what they make us believe, that deaths are caused by covid when they already have underlying issues as opposed to dying solely from covid. So my apologies there ????
So, if we can look at what I was trying to say, How many deaths are there that are due to covid ONLY? As in those who had NO underlying ailments? Im asking a question, as I said earlier I dont claim facts unless I know its a fact. Im not a doctor obviously but the flu can kill, all by itself can it not? So can covid but it seems covid only kills on a large scale when it 'teams up' with other ailments already existing? Same with pneumonia, it can kill by itself but add covid into the mix and it looks like curtains, but covid alone isnt killing the amount of people on its own that the figures would have you believe. The example being that most people who contract covid, yet have no underlying ailments, recover

It's somewhere between 1-5% die without any known underlying issues in the UK (according to the papers). It will be interesting to see the government stats on causes of death for April 2020 when they're available and how they compare to previous years.

While there will obviously be an increase in overall deaths, I suspect there might be a decrease in deaths by other causes due to C19 reclassification. 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/apr/17/no-underlying-conditions-coronavirus-deaths-english-hospitals

[KhaoYai]

4 hours ago, overherebc said:

Thing I can't get my head around is the 'final' benefit to anyone, individuals or governments from the lockdowns

Really? You don't understand that a certain amount of people need hospital treatment for Covid 19? Some cannot be saved but others recover with treatment. Many more would die if they didn't receive treatment. One of the main reasons for death through Covid 19 is that the lungs fail. Many people are kept alive through the use of a ventilator whilst their body fights the disease and normal lung function is restored. Clearly they need to be in a hospital to receive such treatment. If infection levels are allowed to go too high the hospitals will be overwhelmed and unable to offer treatment to everyone who needs it, so people will die who may have lived with treatment.

 

How would you feel if you had the disease but the hospitals were full so you couldn't receive treatment? How about those you leave behind if you die because you couldn't be treated?

 

If a vaccine isn't found, yes, everyone will be infected at some point but if infections are kept to a level the the hospitals can cope with, less will die. So the 'final benefit' is that you may live where you may have died.

[MaxYakov]

IMHO, I think they should make the emergency decree permanent.

 

They'll prevent a lot of road deaths and normal air pollution respiratory problems (if air pollution is actually reduced, otherwise a secondary, more draconian decree, should be invoked).

 

Of course such an action would completely demolish the Thai economy. What was that? The NCPO - National Council of Peace and Order (as opposed to Peace and Prosperity)?

[overherebc]

6 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

Really? You don't understand that a certain amount of people need hospital treatment for Covid 19? Some cannot be saved but others recover with treatment. Many more would die if they didn't receive treatment. One of the main reasons for death through Covid 19 is that the lungs fail. Many people are kept alive through the use of a ventilator whilst their body fights the disease and normal lung function is restored. Clearly they need to be in a hospital to receive such treatment. If infection levels are allowed to go too high the hospitals will be overwhelmed and unable to offer treatment to everyone who needs it, so people will die who may have lived with treatment.

 

How would you feel if you had the disease but the hospitals were full so you couldn't receive treatment? How about those you leave behind if you die because you couldn't be treated?

 

If a vaccine isn't found, yes, everyone will be infected at some point but if infections are kept to a level the the hospitals can cope with, less will die. So the 'final benefit' is that you may live where you may have died.

Yes, I understand the reason at the moment but I did say 'future' benefits ie if/when it's all over.

Again my thoughts would be in the 'conspiracy' field so I won't go there on here except to say I don't need/want anyone to know exactly where I am 24hrs a day.

[sandyf]

13 hours ago, Walter Travolta said:

You're making out it has to be black and white when it doesnt. I have respect or I wouldnt be here, I have respect as I live by their laws and wear my facemask even though I believe its pointless. I have total respect but it doesnt mean I cant have a grumble now and again. My landlady put a note on the door saying rent had been reduced by 2000 for this month so when I went and paid that reduced amount, she said "No, for thai only" Am I supposed to wai and walk away smiling?

I wouldn't disagree with that point of view, we all have a grumble now and again but that is a far cry from calling the administration incompetent and liars.

As for your landlady, a generous gesture to those that may have lost their income. You cannot blame her for assuming that you, like me, have not suffered any reduction in income other than the usual exchange fluctuation. Do not take it from that that I support dual pricing, certainly not. It is something that we have to live with and I do not go anywhere that it is applied, unless I can avoid it with my pink card.

 

There are many on this forum that appear to have deluded themselves into thinking they are doing Thailand a favour by being here, time they faced reality. 

[sandyf]

13 hours ago, Walter Travolta said:

Thanks, you have backed up that Covid deaths are attributed to underlying conditions haha. Please dazzle me with a link of how many deaths are related to CV19 without any underlying symptoms such as pneumonia - ONLY corona please

As you are well aware, you are asking a question that cannot be answered.

The answer would probably be very low as in many cases as the body tries to fight the virus the underlying condition escalates causing death.

It would only be in healthy individuals where the immune system was unable to prevent the virus destroying the lungs it would be the sole cause.

It has been reported that individuals have died with no known underlying conditions, "no known" in itself is an undefined parameter.

[sandyf]

13 hours ago, belfast3 said:

to @sandyf regarding the categorisation of deaths. If someone has flu/pneumonia and dies, that does not automatically mean they died of C19.

I have never said they did. In any post I have made I would only ever have referred to C19 being a factor, not the cause. The presence of the virus reduces the ability of the body to deal with underlying conditions.

In the UK I believe both appear on the death certificate and to date it has only been those on death certificates that have been recorded.

For a few weeks the Scottish Government have been referring to another category "presumed to be C19 related" and from what I gather they will soon be included in the official figures.

 

The health secretary said that in an effort to “bring as much transparency as possible” to the death figures, from tomorrow the government will publish not just the number of deaths in hospital each day, but also the number of deaths in care homes and in the community. It’s feared this will make the death toll appear to spike.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/uk-coronavirus-deaths-today-latest-figures-increase-nhs-covid-19-update-a9488716.html

[revup]

On 4/27/2020 at 6:30 PM, Matzzon said:

Yes, they offered the lamb (their old people) to the virus. Guess they did not put the same value on them as the rest of the world. Something I will never forgive them for.

Agree 100 percent. Sweden, with nearly 20 k infections and 1600 deaths, 135 of which were just yesterday.

[Bluedan]

14 hours ago, Walter Travolta said:

That is what I am trying to say although, my bad, I should have said that that is what they make us believe, that deaths are caused by covid when they already have underlying issues as opposed to dying solely from covid. So my apologies there ????
So, if we can look at what I was trying to say, How many deaths are there that are due to covid ONLY? As in those who had NO underlying ailments? Im asking a question, as I said earlier I dont claim facts unless I know its a fact. Im not a doctor obviously but the flu can kill, all by itself can it not? So can covid but it seems covid only kills on a large scale when it 'teams up' with other ailments already existing? Same with pneumonia, it can kill by itself but add covid into the mix and it looks like curtains, but covid alone isnt killing the amount of people on its own that the figures would have you believe. The example being that most people who contract covid, yet have no underlying ailments, recover

published results from New York show that from 12000 deaths in around 20-30% of cases it was unknown whether there were underlying conditions or not. Of the rest only 2% were shown Not to have underlying conditions. So from the known cases the overwhelming majority did have underlying conditions.

 

The categorisations are also highly relevant. The coding makes death categorization as COVID more likely and there is also a financial incentive for hospitals to do so.

[belfast3]

6 hours ago, sandyf said:

I have never said they did. In any post I have made I would only ever have referred to C19 being a factor, not the cause. The presence of the virus reduces the ability of the body to deal with underlying conditions.

In the UK I believe both appear on the death certificate and to date it has only been those on death certificates that have been recorded.

For a few weeks the Scottish Government have been referring to another category "presumed to be C19 related" and from what I gather they will soon be included in the official figures.

 

The health secretary said that in an effort to “bring as much transparency as possible” to the death figures, from tomorrow the government will publish not just the number of deaths in hospital each day, but also the number of deaths in care homes and in the community. It’s feared this will make the death toll appear to spike.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/uk-coronavirus-deaths-today-latest-figures-increase-nhs-covid-19-update-a9488716.html

The care home figures (which currently represent 33% of deaths) are going to amplify the question mark over the effectiveness of lockdown. The economy has been destroyed and millions of lives ruined, while nothing was done to protect the most vulnerable group who could have been easily isolated and saved.

[sandyf]

14 minutes ago, belfast3 said:

The care home figures (which currently represent 33% of deaths) are going to amplify the question mark over the effectiveness of lockdown. The economy has been destroyed and millions of lives ruined, while nothing was done to protect the most vulnerable group who could have been easily isolated and saved.

Not so much the effectiveness of lockdown but how long it took them to get the message, like shutting that stable door.

Several Asian countries reacted first week in Jan, nearly end of March for the UK. Certainly a lot to answer for over the care home situation.

[metisdead]

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