Bangkok Air Pollution 2020

[MaxYakov]

3 hours ago, TerraplaneGuy said:

Well don't bet too much. I've checked in past to see if the humidity on my Sndway goes noticeably up with the aircon and haven't seen that.  I'll try it again though.  But your thought that there would be a reduction in humidity caused by aircon seems contrary to my observation that particle count goes up with aircon.  I have read that aircon can actually increase humidity, from blowback from the condensation and that's why they include a dehumidify mode on many (there is one on mine) which turns off the fan when the cooling process is not active (i. e. when temperature has reached the desired low level). 

Thanks. Well we know empirically that the A/C evaporators are condensing water from the air because I've captured several liters from one of my units from the drain line on my balcony. I have a GE portable dehumidifier unit that I bought and haven't used much but did play with it a few times. It has a humidity display and a reservoir for capturing the condensate and I can see the humidity being reduced on it's front panel humidity display and water increase in the reservoir when I run it. I've looked at this unit internally out of curiosity and it appears to be a miniaturized version of a full-size refrigerant A/C unit that reduces humidity by cooling the air considerably by passing the air over a cooled, finned heat exchanger (maybe I should have said cold exchanger ????) I suppose it's probably using thermocouples for cooling the air rather than a refrigerant cycle cooling as do our A/C units. Now that I think about it, I wonder why our A/C units aren't implemented with thermocouples, but this yet another off-topic subject.

 

I suppose that at the same time with full-size A/C units, humidity could be locally increased because of undrained condensate remaining on the evaporator's cooling fins that is being re-evaporated into the air because of the fan continuing to run.

 

Is it possible that out particle sensors are sensitive to both changes in humidity (I'm not going to say reduction this time) and changes in temperature as well?

 

 

 

Edited February 26, 2020 by MaxYakov

[DaveInSukhumvit]

20 hours ago, Misty said:

Thanks very much for your thoughts.  Thanks to all the upgrades I've made over the last two years, most rooms in our place measure low on my Sndway meter.  Even the big room usually measures low, unless we turn on the old central air conditioners that still exist in that room. I did ask our Thai building manager about installing filters on the intake side for those units, but they said the units are too old and not the same as the US.  So we're left with either no air, or paying to replace those old units ourselves.  Will have to study this some more to see what is most cost effective.  Just getting a small portable a/c is appealing since its cheap.

Thanks for your kind words.  I'm happy that you generally get good air in your home.  About the Central AC making air worse, I've seen a lot of leaky AC Plenums (Ductwork) in the US, and I'm 1/1 (one out of one) with a simple inspection here.  They don't seal the joints.  In the case with the Thai example near Phrakhanong BTS, I just took the outlet cover off and it was quite clear that air was coming from inside the rather-large crawl space between units.

[DaveInSukhumvit]

About humidity influence on Sndway unit...  I tested this the other day putting meter in bathroom during my shower - not much change even with fog on the mirror.  So I put meter in shower with me - then it got rather exciting.  In short, I noticed non-liner behavior when it went from humid to very humid.  Thanks to Max's PDF we can see that when humidity gets above RH 80% the PM count gets a boost from water particles.

I like this RH information on Sndway because I have noticed that the air in Au Bon Pain at Emporium Tower (M level) is usually pretty good (different from outside) suggesting filtered air.  I've tested it many times with 3 different meters.  I don't think it is RH because everything in Emporium buildings is air conditioned and relatively low RH compared to outside. Also Starbucks at Century Onnut has better air.  I'm trying to figure out why.  By contrast, Emporium food court 4th floor glass seating area is exceptionally high AQI around 200-250 at lunch.  Just FYI. Ideas welcome.

[TerraplaneGuy]

OK I checked once again the effect of aircon on my Sndway PM 2.5 monitor readings.  Results were consistent with earlier tests:  the aircon increases particles.  Details:  Aircon is Daikin recessed wall units in each room with outdoor compressor.  Purifier is the Hatari AP-12.  Test was in my bedroom (not very big). I started with the Hatari at "2" for the whole night, no aircon.  By morning the result was Sndway reading 0-1 at 67% humidity.  Turned on the aircon (fan high, temperature 26) and within a few minutes the Sndway reading was 7.  Humidity unchanged at 67%.  Left if for another 5 minutes or so and the reading jumped to around 14 with humidity down to 62%.  Conclusion:  the aircon caused an immediate jump in particles with no humidity change.  Then particles increased further while humidity went down (the drop in humidity was expected because in the cooling phase of the aircon it sucks up moisture.  It may (see earlier post) blow moisture back into the room in the post-cooling fan phase but I didn't get to that).  The fact that particles increased while humidity decreased suggests to me that the aircon is strongly pumping in real particles, because you would expect a decrease in the particle reading with decreased humidity (since the monitor can mistake water for particles).  Why this happens I don't know.  As mentioned above, I've had the aircon filters cleaned recently and as far as I know no outside air is supposed to get into the system.  Ideas?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

2 hours ago, DaveInSukhumvit said:

By contrast, Emporium food court 4th floor glass seating area is exceptionally high AQI around 200-250 at lunch.

 

Likely the impact of local heat cooking there, gas stoves, frying, etc.

[WalkingOrders]

I have taken to wearing a quality 2.5 mask if outside. It works wonders. I walk about 2 miles a day to gym and back. It works. I breathe full while walking, and do not feel sick when I get home, which has raised my mood in this horrible situation. I no longer feel angry, not wanting to venture out. I noticed difference right away.

[TerraplaneGuy]

51 minutes ago, WalkingOrders said:

I have taken to wearing a quality 2.5 mask if outside. It works wonders. I walk about 2 miles a day to gym and back. It works. I breathe full while walking, and do not feel sick when I get home, which has raised my mood in this horrible situation. I no longer feel angry, not wanting to venture out. I noticed difference right away.

Good to hear.  How's the air in your gym?

[WalkingOrders]

55 minutes ago, TerraplaneGuy said:

Good to hear.  How's the air in your gym?

Air conditioned 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

On 2/26/2020 at 4:42 PM, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Somehow, AQICN.org seems to be predicting BKK PM2.5 levels for Thur and Fri of up to 248 AQI...  In the two or so years I've been monitoring this closely, I don't think I've ever seen BKK at large hit a pollution level that high.

 

 

 

Never got to purple / very unhealthy today in BKK, even though the PM2.5 levels have been generally rising ever since late morning. So yesterday's forecast appears to have been off, at least for today. And we just had to settle for regular RED / UNHEALTHY!

 

 

[watthong]

9 hours ago, WalkingOrders said:

I have taken to wearing a quality 2.5 mask if outside. It works wonders. I walk about 2 miles a day to gym and back. It works. I breathe full while walking, and do not feel sick when I get home, which has raised my mood in this horrible situation. I no longer feel angry, not wanting to venture out. I noticed difference right away.

What brand and which store you got it from? Masks are going empty shelf/stock in stores in my neighborhood and instead, home made masks are appearing on sidewalk stalls, bearing PM 2.5 even though they are made out of cloth and sporting a breathing valve no less - 100 baht a piece. Thanks.

[DaveInSukhumvit]

On 2/27/2020 at 12:43 PM, WalkingOrders said:

Air conditioned 

Meaning gym membership places have same AQI like outside.  I've only found 2 coffee shops in dozens of meter tests that appear to be semi purified air.  In general, nobody sells air conditioning filters here in Thailand (AFIK), especially not HEPA filters.  That means no filters for Wall-hang units, no for Cassette units (ceiling square design), no for central ducted split units.   I did see a customizable HEPA shop online one time, I think this is it: https://www.facebook.com/SRPFRESH/)   Corrections always welcome.

[MaxYakov]

Well folks as we know the late, great "Purple/Unhealthy" forecast (Ref. HERE) for Thursday and Friday was not a happening, especially not for Friday. If I weren't trying to be nice, I'd call the forecast "bogus". Anyway, late last night and early this morning I attempted to do a post-mortem on the situation and Venusky offered a potential explanation - there was not a source of external-to-Bangkok pollution by 23:45 last night (Friday, the 28th). The Venusky display for around midnight follows this two-day summary from RTAQI:

 

 

As can be seen, the southerlies from the Gulf of Thailand via the Bay of Bangkok seem to have held off the western coast Thai/Myanmar pollution except to the northeast of Bangkok where some has gotten through. Cambodia is being skirted by winds that Venusky says skirt around the southern tip of Cambodia.

 

Note: I don't necessarily trust Venusky displays much more than I do the RTAQ pollution forecasts. They admit that their display is a computer model driven from data that could be up to eight hours old. In any event, this particular display from 2345 last night could be used to explain the Moderate/Orange levels we saw yesterday (Friday) from 1600 until 0000. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 29, 2020 by MaxYakov

[Yom]

3 hours ago, MaxYakov said:

As can be seen, the southerlies from the Gulf of Thailand via the Bay of Bangkok seem to have held off the western coast Thai/Myanmar pollution except to the northeast of Bangkok where some has gotten through.

That's it.

And now the PM2.5-pollution is rising again?

 

[MaxYakov]

14 minutes ago, Yom said:

3 hours ago, MaxYakov said:

As can be seen, the southerlies from the Gulf of Thailand via the Bay of Bangkok seem to have held off the western coast Thai/Myanmar pollution except to the northeast of Bangkok where some has gotten through.

That's it.

And now the PM2.5-pollution is rising again?

There is some currently shown by Venusky in northern Bangkok for what that's worth. However, if it's coming from the north, it's going against the southerly winds that are spanning Bangkok (according to Venusky). It appears to be part of a large area of >50 and >100 pollution to the north and northwest. I should look to FIRMS for high field fires in the north and northwest I suppose.:

 

[Yom]

30 minutes ago, MaxYakov said:

... if it's coming from the north

Might be the remnants of days before?

You should be happy today in Bangkok. Hope so.  -  I think,

the 'clean' winds from the Gulf of Thailand are fighting with the air pollution

originating from India and Myanmar. And the winner seems to be the Gulf winds.

They push a lot of the smog to the Andaman Sea and the rest up North.

There it is really bad these days.

 

Edited February 29, 2020 by Yom

[Yom]

For comparison and because of solidarity

 

 

Today Bangkok yellow and orange, e.g.

 

Chiang Mai is top. - NakornPing Hosp.

 

 

 

 

[MaxYakov]

3 hours ago, Yom said:

For comparison and because of solidarity

 

 

Today Bangkok yellow and orange, e.g.

 

Chiang Mai is top. - NakornPing Hosp.

 

 

 

 

 

Ventusky is completely blind to this - why is not their alleged computer model taking in the RTAQ data?

 

It's also not showing Bangkok's yellow and orange levels either.

 

Check Ventusky PM2.5 Chiang Mai HERE

Edited March 1, 2020 by MaxYakov

[Yom]

6 minutes ago, MaxYakov said:

Ventusky is completely blind to this

I think not only Ventusky !?

We all are dependent on different machines/programs.

Sounds stupid, but the only real thing might be to have

2 PM2.5-monitors...

[DaveInSukhumvit]

14 hours ago, Yom said:

 PM2.5-monitors...

FYI about PM2.5 meters.  The Sndway meter is popular and accurate (at least with my tests).

Here is a less expensive unit that looks to be the same: https://bit.ly/3aFjHqm  Two friends ordered these a few weeks ago and both orders got cancelled b/c of Covid.

[ExpatOilWorker]

1 hour ago, DaveInSukhumvit said:

FYI about PM2.5 meters.  The Sndway meter is popular and accurate (at least with my tests).

Here is a less expensive unit that looks to be the same: https://bit.ly/3aFjHqm  Two friends ordered these a few weeks ago and both orders got cancelled b/c of Covid.

It seems to lack temperature and humidity measurements which at times can be handy.

Looks like a Chinese knockoff of a chine product. Maybe best avoided.

[DaveInSukhumvit]

On 3/2/2020 at 11:35 AM, ExpatOilWorker said:

It seems to lack temperature and humidity measurements which at times can be handy.

Looks like a Chinese knockoff of a chine product. Maybe best avoided.

Good point about missing Temp and Humidity (included on Sndway unit).

If somebody does get one, please post your comments.  I felt that Sndway was risky until it arrived and the numbers matched with other meters (mine, and friends).  IMO, if you can get just PM2.5 for THB 664 that could be a good value.  I had to take my meter into the shower to see a RH spike - sane people don't do that. ????

[Misty]

Pollution back with a vengeance today.  Sndway measuring PM2.5 85 - 115 (AQI166-181) around 12:30pm in Sukhumvit Phrom Phong area

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 hour ago, Misty said:

Pollution back with a vengeance today.  Sndway measuring PM2.5 85 - 115 (AQI166-181) around 12:30pm in Sukhumvit Phrom Phong area

 

Is that a home reading, or an outdoors/street reading?

 

My Sndway unit indoors at home in the Asoke area, well away from traffic, has been in the 45 to 50 micrograms range all day, which equates to an AQI of 124 to 137.  But it looks like most of the sensors in the area as reported by AirVisual are reading AQIs in the 150 range right now.

 

In all cases, those readings are well below the ones you're reporting.

 

 

[Misty]

1 hour ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Is that a home reading, or an outdoors/street reading?

 

My Sndway unit indoors at home in the Asoke area, well away from traffic, has been in the 45 to 50 micrograms range all day, which equates to an AQI of 124 to 137.  But it looks like most of the sensors in the area as reported by AirVisual are reading AQIs in the 150 range right now.

 

In all cases, those readings are well below the ones you're reporting.

 

 

That was outdoor / street.  I use indoor air purifiers so don't get indoor readings like that.  I'll be out later this evening to see what its reading then.   From AQI Bangkok 2pm:

[MayPutThai]

On 1/7/2020 at 5:18 PM, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Sorry, but that's simply not true. The reality is, it's BOTH agricultural and other types of burning and vehicle emissions in BKK...  And the mix, greater or lower, depends on the time of the year.

 

Thai scientists have actually done analysis/studies on the constituent makeup of smog/PM2.5 in BKK.... During the rainy season, it's more heavily weighted to vehicle emissions. But during the dry season, when more burning is occurring, it's more heavily weighted to agricultural and other burning.

 

Both sources are significant contributors to PM2.5 pollution in BKK, but the relative mix varies depending on the time of the year.

 

 

The point is, the Millions of house waste burner behind the house. They burn everything. So, how the Thai did over century. But the modern Thai burn even all the plastic and other <deleted>. This, on low Temperature produces a very good cocktail of very poison and cancer-generous gas like Dioxin (Seveso). No wonder about the high rate of Liver cancer due to Dioxin goes into the liver. People might think it comes from the alcohol. Maybe right, that comes on top and explain the higher rate to men. After our great government and on top off all our wonderful managing Khun Anutin can catch the Corvid issue, I hope they will have more time on focus for the air pollution. I was not good in mathematics ???? but the dead cases are much higher from the environmental impact than from Corvid.

I wonder how these responsible guys can live in that situation. Is it dumbness or ignorance?   

[MaxYakov]

33 minutes ago, MayPutThai said:

The point is, the Millions of house waste burner behind the house. They burn everything. So, how the Thai did over century. But the modern Thai burn even all the plastic and other <deleted>. This, on low Temperature produces a very good cocktail of very poison and cancer-generous gas like Dioxin (Seveso). No wonder about the high rate of Liver cancer due to Dioxin goes into the liver. People might think it comes from the alcohol. Maybe right, that comes on top and explain the higher rate to men. After our great government and on top off all our wonderful managing Khun Anutin can catch the Corvid issue, I hope they will have more time on focus for the air pollution. I was not good in mathematics ???? but the dead cases are much higher from the environmental impact than from Corvid.

I wonder how these responsible guys can live in that situation. Is it dumbness or ignorance?   

Both.

[Yom]

2 hours ago, MaxYakov said:

Both

... and greed.

 

Btw, Bangkok is pretty good these days.

Have a look up north.

          ******************

[MaxYakov]

4 hours ago, Yom said:

... and greed.

 

Btw, Bangkok is pretty good these days.

Have a look up north.

          ******************

Eeeeeeeeuw! I could have gone all day without seeing that. Are you up there (I hope not).

 

BTW, what site is that first image from?

[Yom]

1 hour ago, MaxYakov said:

what site is that first image from

http://berkeleyearth.org/air-pollution-overview/

 

Yes, but since two or three days we're lucky being in Phrae.

The d!rt starts at Lampang, ending / beginning

up north somewhere in the Shan States.

 

Very bad for humans (and animals/plants?) in the CM/Cr area.

[blackcab]

An off topic post about vegetables in Pattaya has been removed.