Pompeo says 'significant' evidence new coronavirus emerged from Chinese lab

[DavisH]

3 hours ago, sukhumvitneon said:

Is there anything redeemable about China at this point?

Don't you mean the good ol'e US of A?

 

[rabas]

34 minutes ago, Pedrogaz said:

This has been conclusively disproven by reputable scientists (ie not the likes of Trump or Pompeo)

Indeed published yesterday was the news that the virus in the US came from Italy France or Belgium. This was demonstrated by looking at the make of of different strains of the viruses involved in different countries. Also the different viral strains seem to have been around for quite some time.

Not sure what you think was disproven, surely not the possibility of a lab leak which wouldn't be the first SARS virus leaked from a Chinese lab. A Beijing lab let SARS-1 out several years ago.

 

SARS escaped Beijing lab twice

SARS Outbreak Shows Lax Lab Security

China Reports SARS Death Caused By Lab Leak

State Department cables warned of safety issues at Wuhan lab(2018)

 

New York and vicinity were mostly seeded from Europe. California and the West Coast were seeded from China and other SEAsian countries. You can see this on GISAID. However, it proves nothing about where it leaked from, if it leaked.

[4MyEgo]

6 hours ago, Kerryd said:

Trump really wants a 2nd term but it sounds like his polling numbers are taking a beating and at this point there's not much chance he'd win (even with "Russian" help or an FBI Director playing politics).

I would say that timing of the Covid-19 outbreak is a windfall for the Chinese, luck or conspiracy, sooner or later whoever the incoming President is, China will once again be in better position once again to be able to negotiate terms and conditions.

 

The problem with Trump is, he has too much of a big ego, no doubt he was trying to do the right thing for the country, but going to hard with his ego will backfire this coming election, the writing is on the wall, i.e. he screwed up when he said he was being a cheerleader for the USA, when he fully knew that Covid-19 was going to kill tens of thousands in America, totally irresponsible person, albeit it a President IMO.

[Logosone]

20 minutes ago, rabas said:

Not sure what you think was disproven, surely not the possibility of a lab leak which wouldn't be the first SARS virus leaked from a Chinese lab. A Beijing lab let SARS-1 out several years ago.

 

SARS escaped Beijing lab twice

SARS Outbreak Shows Lax Lab Security

China Reports SARS Death Caused By Lab Leak

State Department cables warned of safety issues at Wuhan lab(2018)

 

New York and vicinity were mostly seeded from Europe. California and the West Coast were seeded from China and other SEAsian countries. You can see this on GISAID. However, it proves nothing about where it leaked from, if it leaked.

Well, the Peter Forster research from Cambridge found the A variant in Guangdong, not Wuhan.

 

The problem with the lab theory is that a bat coronavirus can not infect humans. It requires an animal intermediary in which the virus can mutate long enough for the SARS Cov2 variant to appear which infects humans. That takes time. A bat coronavirus can not infect humans. SARS Cov2 is derived from Bats but it is crucially different to the Bat virus in some aspects, which mean the Bat virus itself can not infect humans.

[Walker88]

Fat Mikey has taken on the silly mantle of his love muffin donny.

 

There are NO EXPERTS who believe CV-19 was man-made. Fat Mikey is spewing out some combination of spurious comments and lies. Also, the agency Fat Mikey led for a short time, and where he is reviled, has 'sources and methods', both HUMINT and SIGINT, that indicate the virus emerged as originally reported---from a wet market in Wuhan. Yes, the Chinese govt tried to quash knowledge of it as people became infected, and that contributed to the worldwide spread---particularly since it began to peak in China right before the high travel season of Lunar New Year---but nobody in the intel community puts any credence in it being 'man-made'.

 

Fat Mikey is a disgrace. The agency is so happy he's long gone, though folks feel bad for those in Foggy Bottom who have to deal with the clown.

[Walker88]

10 minutes ago, Logosone said:

Well, the Peter Forster research from Cambridge found the A variant in Guangdong, not Wuhan.

 

The problem with the lab theory is that a bat coronavirus can not infect humans. It requires an animal intermediary in which the virus can mutate long enough for the SARS Cov2 variant to appear which infects humans. That takes time. A bat coronavirus can not infect humans. SARS Cov2 is derived from Bats but it is crucially different to the Bat virus in some aspects, which mean the Bat virus itself can not infect humans.

I see you are neither a biochemist nor a virologist. A bat virus can and does infect humans.

[Susco]

28 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

I see you are neither a biochemist nor a virologist. A bat virus can and does infect humans.

I see you are neither either, because if a virus infects humans doesn't depend on the carrier but on the virus

[Logosone]

22 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

I see you are neither a biochemist nor a virologist. A bat virus can and does infect humans.

The MERS Cov can, I'm talking about SARS Cov.

 

" Although RaTG13, sampled from a Rhinolophus affinis bat1, is ~96% identical overall to SARS-CoV-2, its spike diverges in the RBD, which suggests that it may not bind efficiently to human ACE27".

 

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9

 

 

[Thingamabob]

All those who worked on the Corona virus in the Wuhan lab have been removed or have disapppeared, and the doctor who wanted to alert the international community to what was going on has died. Chilling.

[puipuitom]

11 hours ago, ukrules said:

It doesn't need to be 'man made' or 'genetically modified' to escape a research lab.

 

Research labs do research on dangerous things all the time, if the lab is not properly secure and some one screws up then things could leak.

 

So the suggestion that it leaked from the lab which to me looks more likely by the day has nothing to do with what they were doing with the virus in the lab and certainly doesn't contradict intel suggestions that it's not man made or modified in the lab.

 

The last pandamic, the later called Spanish Flue", was released from Haskell County, Kansas, USA.

[Jimbo2014]

6 hours ago, Logosone said:

The famous study you refer to was done by several very able geneticists, who were also among the ones who confirmed that the Chinese genetic study about two strains with one being more virulent was flawed.

 

In this study, which I link below, the authors state a man-made origin is extremely unlikely and the analysis looks very convincing.

 

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9

 

My impression was that Trump's argument was that the virus was not man made, but was harvested from bats in a Chinese lab and then escaped.

 

Of course we have seen no evidence of this yet.

The article you referenced was flawed and also not peer reviewed - I provide a critical response to it below.  It blatently omitted the possibility of Gain of Function experinments, notably Category 2, which would be indistringuishable from natural evolution only accellerated in the direction of human ACE2.  I would also note that it is highly unusual for a virus with such strong binding afinity for human ACE2 to appear out of nowhere.  Usually it would undergo less transmissable forms such as SARS.  Circumstantial evidence is very strong at present.  The odds of the virus breaking out a stones throw from the main laboratory studying bat cov diseases is very small and the Chinese governments actions in the early days of the virus certainly raised suspicions.  Incidentally its not just Trump that is making these claims.  UK, Australia, Taiwan and a growing number of experts would also like more information on the origins of the virus.  Unfortunately when the orange menance grabs a bone it taints its credibility.  

https://thebulletin.org/2020/03/experts-know-the-new-coronavirus-is-not-a-bioweapon-they-disagree-on-whether-it-could-have-leaked-from-a-research-lab/

Edited May 4, 2020 by Jimbo2014

[J Town]

12 minutes ago, puipuitom said:

The last pandamic, the later called Spanish Flue", was released from Haskell County, Kansas, USA.

That was the first reported case. Not necessarily the origin.

 

"While it's unlikely that the “Spanish Flu” originated in Spain, scientists are still unsure of its source. France, China and Britain have all been suggested as the potential birthplace of the virus, as has the United States, where the first known case was reported at a military base in Kansas on March 11, 1918."

 

https://www.history.com/news/why-was-it-called-the-spanish-flu

[Muzarella]

The USA always looking for a guilty party outside its own land. In 1996 I was walking inside the UCSD University in San Diego when I saw a bunny running on a parking lot. Hours later a notice picturing the bunny was posted around the campus saying that the animal was a ``fugitive´´ from the laboratory and advising not to touch or capture, just to call with location info.

[Logosone]

56 minutes ago, Jimbo2014 said:

The article you referenced was flawed and also not peer reviewed - I provide a critical response to it below.  It blatently omitted the possibility of Gain of Function experinments, notably Category 2, which would be indistringuishable from natural evolution only accellerated in the direction of human ACE2.  I would also note that it is highly unusual for a virus with such strong binding afinity for human ACE2 to appear out of nowhere.  Usually it would undergo less transmissable forms such as SARS.  Circumstantial evidence is very strong at present.  The odds of the virus breaking out a stones throw from the main laboratory studying bat cov diseases is very small and the Chinese governments actions in the early days of the virus certainly raised suspicions.  Incidentally its not just Trump that is making these claims.  UK, Australia, Taiwan and a growing number of experts would also like more information on the origins of the virus.  Unfortunately when the orange menance grabs a bone it taints its credibility.  

https://thebulletin.org/2020/03/experts-know-the-new-coronavirus-is-not-a-bioweapon-they-disagree-on-whether-it-could-have-leaked-from-a-research-lab/

Firstly, the paper by Andersen et al was massively peer reviewed, and has gained total peer acceptance. Even the article you posted, which is rather good, explicitly accepts that this paper is persuasive and made a good case.

 

Why did they omit Gain of Function considerations? Obviously because they had no evidence of it, in a paper like that you have to supply the evidence. You are right, that it can not be discounted that Gain of Function experimentation was done in Wuhan, but you'd have to provide the evidence.

 

If you read the Andersen paper that is the whole reason why they posit the possibility of an animal intermediary, because they seek to explain the particular affinity of Sars Cov2 to bind to human receptors. They would agree it did not appear out of nowhere, but required the 'prep' time in another species.

 

It is indeed the case that lab accidents happen, the Chinese previously had such accidents, the lab is close to the wet market, and yes some other allies of Trump like the UK and Australia are also making this claim, however, as you realise none of this is causation in fact evidence. You'd need a bit more to establish the real cause, which is important to identify. 

 

We certainly do need to find out how this happened.

Edited May 4, 2020 by Logosone

[Jimbo2014]

12 minutes ago, Logosone said:

Firstly, the paper by Andersen et al was massively peer reviewed, and has gained total peer acceptance. Even the article you posted, which is rather good, explicitly accepts that this paper is persuasive and made a good case.

 

Why did they omit Gain of Function considerations? Obviously because they had no evidence of it, in a paper like that you have to supply the evidence. You are right, that it can not be discounted that Gain of Function experimentation was done in Wuhan, but you'd have to provide the evidence.

 

If you read the Andersen paper that is the whole reason why they posit the possibility of an animal intermediary, because they seek to explain the particular affinity of Sars Cov2 to bind to human receptors. They would agree it did not appear out of nowhere, but required the 'prep' time in another species.

 

It is indeed the case that lab accidents happen, the Chinese previously had such accidents, the lab is close to the wet market, and yes some other allies of Trump like the UK and Australia are also making this claim, however, as you realise none of this is causation in fact evidence. You'd need a bit more to establish the real cause, which is important to identify. 

 

We certainly do need to find out how this happened.

Absolutely I agree with you that none of this is conclusive proof.  I would say that in this day and age with human population so widely spread that it would be very unusual for a virus to gradually refine itself between animal species and then jump to humans with such refined binding efficiency, and as a respiratory virus.  I would also note the Chinese behalved in a very peculiar manner during the first months of the virus and used WHO to parrot their narrative first concerning lack of human to human transmission then to help keep international trade and travel open to affected areas.  The supression of whistleblowers and now filtering of research into the origin of the virus.  It sounds as though even they are not sure.  However as you said - all conjecture at the moment but its very hard to delive deep when the main suspect controls the crime scene.

[GalaxyMan]

Pompeo is Mr. Full Of Sh**. He is to Trump what Geobbels was to Hitler. Tell a big lie often enough and people will start believing that it's the truth. He's knocking himself out blaming China for anything and everything in an effort to deflect from Trump's total screw-up of the virus response, and his presidency. Now his big noise is that China deliberately let the virus 'escape' from Wuhan internationally. The truth of the matter is that FlightStats data from Wuhan airport showed that all of its flights, domestic and international, were shut down at noon on January 23. As soon as the Chinese were willing to admit to themselves that they had a problem, they dealt with it. It's everything up to that point that is a bit questionable, but nobody comes anywhere near the degree of malfeasance that Trump has displayed. Can't wait to see him lose the election then go to jail as various states line up to charge him with various criminal acts. ????

Edited May 4, 2020 by GalaxyMan

[J Town]

8 minutes ago, GalaxyMan said:

Pompeo is Mr. Full Of Sh**. He is to Trump what Geobbels was to Hitler. Tell a big lie often enough and people will start believing that it's the truth.

Not long ago I remember hearing "If you want a test, you can get a test."

[GalaxyMan]

2 minutes ago, J Town said:

Not long ago I remember hearing "If you want a test, you can get a test."

He's only dishonest when he speaks. Honest! ????

[rkidlad]

Whether you believe this or not, it doesn't matter. We need an independent investigation into what exactly happened here. China will not allow this. Australia is pushing very heavily for this investigation and China basically threatened them to what was tantamount to sanctions. If that's not an admission of guilt, I don't know what is. 

 

If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about. Let the investigation begin, China, or you deserve all the criticism and skepticism directed towards you. You lost the benefit of the doubt after your initial handling of this virus. 

[gamb00ler]

1 hour ago, puipuitom said:

The last pandamic, the later called Spanish Flue", was released from Haskell County, Kansas, USA.

More modern research has suggested that the virus responsible for the 1918 pandemic originated in China several months before being found on the Army base in Kansas.

 

https://www.history.com/news/china-epicenter-of-1918-flu-pandemic-historian-says

[stevenl]

2 minutes ago, gamb00ler said:

More modern research has suggested that the virus responsible for the 1918 pandemic originated in China several months before being found on the Army base in Kansas.

 

https://www.history.com/news/china-epicenter-of-1918-flu-pandemic-historian-says

That is one researcher, and accepted as one of the options. But far from settled.

[candide]

5 minutes ago, rkidlad said:

Whether you believe this or not, it doesn't matter. We need an independent investigation into what exactly happened here. China will not allow this. Australia is pushing very heavily for this investigation and China basically threatened them to what was tantamount to sanctions. If that's not an admission of guilt, I don't know what is. 

 

If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about. Let the investigation begin, China, or you deserve all the criticism and skepticism directed towards you. You lost the benefit of the doubt after your initial handling of this virus. 

As a general policy, China doesn't accept invasive foreign investigation.

[rkidlad]

3 minutes ago, candide said:

As a general policy, China doesn't accept invasive foreign investigation.

The WHO are there right now. 

 

If they wanna clear their name, they're going to have to let investigators in. If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about. This is the old adage they use to spy on and control their own citizens. 

Edited May 4, 2020 by rkidlad

[ukrules]

2 hours ago, puipuitom said:

The last pandamic, the later called Spanish Flue", was released from Haskell County, Kansas, USA.

It was recorded in the US first but this theory is much less supported these days.

 

It came from China, the US claim to fame is that they noticed it first.

 

It's worth noting that a huge number of the Chinese Labour Corps moved through Canada on their way to Europe to work behind the scenes in WW1.

 

So you had mass movements of Chinese people to North America just before a pandemic broke out - does this sound familiar?

 

[candide]

20 minutes ago, rkidlad said:

The WHO are there right now. 

 

If they wanna clear their name, they're going to have to let investigators in. If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about. This is the old adage they use to spy on and control their own citizens. 

The WHO is there, but not with an investigative mandate. Actually, it's current status does not allow it to impose an investigation to any country.

 

I am not saying that China is right or wrong, innocent or not, etc...

It is their policy not to to accept invasive foreign investigations on any subject.

 

This is not an exclusive knowledge I have about China. The US government knows it, the Australian government too, etc....

Edited May 4, 2020 by candide

[stevenl]

1 minute ago, ukrules said:

<snip>

It came from China, the US claim to fame is that they noticed it first.

 

<snip>

 

That is one possibility, but far from sure.

[Logosone]

1 hour ago, Jimbo2014 said:

Absolutely I agree with you that none of this is conclusive proof.  I would say that in this day and age with human population so widely spread that it would be very unusual for a virus to gradually refine itself between animal species and then jump to humans with such refined binding efficiency, and as a respiratory virus.  I would also note the Chinese behalved in a very peculiar manner during the first months of the virus and used WHO to parrot their narrative first concerning lack of human to human transmission then to help keep international trade and travel open to affected areas.  The supression of whistleblowers and now filtering of research into the origin of the virus.  It sounds as though even they are not sure.  However as you said - all conjecture at the moment but its very hard to delive deep when the main suspect controls the crime scene.

The Andersen study did not actually discount the mutation in humans scenario, they gave two possible explanations, one the animal intermediary and one the human intermediary. Turns out coronaviruses can spread directly from bat to human, it was just the particular bat coronavirus the Chinese identified as the most closely genetically related to the SARS Cov2, that can't. This does not mean the virus could not have spread from a coronavirus derived from a bat, there are many others, that can infect humans. From the tenor of the Andersen paper I would say the authors are not sure themselves, hence the provision for two possible explanations.

 

The Chinese certainly behaved in a peculiar manner in some respects, I agree with you, though within weeks they did share the genome. Indeed the bat coronavirus used in the Andersen paper was from China's Batwoman. One has to consider however if China's statement that human to human transmission was not happening was due to ignorance, rather than design. It's possible as well.

 

I would definitely agree that now the Chinese propaganda is in overdrive to falsify a lot of the data on the virus, silly accusations like the US introduced it do it no favours really.

 

China holds all the cards in terms of origin of the pandemic, and indeed fighting it, as they seem to have a knowledge advantage in coronavirus research. It can not be discounted this virus escaped from a Chinese lab, but we'd have to see real evidence. 

Edited May 4, 2020 by Logosone

[rkidlad]

10 minutes ago, candide said:

The WHO is there, but not with an investigative mandate. Actually, it's current status does not allow it to impose an investigation to any country.

 

I am not saying that China is right or wrong, innocent or not, etc...

It is their policy not to to accept invasive foreign investigations on any subject.

 

This is not an exclusive knowledge I have about China. The US government knows it, the Australian government too, etc....

Yea, that a huge cop-out. That's like you asking me a hypothetical question I don't like and me saying, "That's  a hypothetical question. You know I don't answer hypothetical questions". I'm clearly hiding something. 

 

China can do whatever if likes within its borders (as proven time and and time again), but they can't refuse an independent investigation and expect people to believe them. That's not how life works. China should be welcoming an investigation. It will clear their name if they're telling the truth. By denying one, they're continuing to ruin their image and their economy. 

 

Rules are rules doesn't apply here. 

[stevenl]

6 minutes ago, Logosone said:

The Andersen study did not actually discount the mutation in humans scenario, they gave two possible explanations, one the animal intermediary and one the human intermediary. Turns out coronaviruses can spread directly from bat to human, it was just the particular bat coronavirus the Chinese identified as the most closely genetically related to the SARS Cov2, that can't. This does not mean the virus could not have spread from a coronavirus derived from a bat, there are many others, that can infect humans. From the tenor of the Andersen paper I would say the authors are not sure themselves, hence the provision for two possible explanations.

 

The Chinese certainly behaved in a peculiar manner in some respects, I agree with you, though within weeks they did share the genome. Indeed the bat coronavirus used in the Andersen paper was from China's Batwoman. One has to consider however if China's statement that human to human transmission was not happening was due to ignorance, rather than design. It's possible as well.

 

I would definitely agree that now the Chinese propaganda is in overdrive to falsify a lot of the data on the virus, silly accusations like the US introduced it do it no favours really.

 

China holds all the cards in terms of origin of the pandemic, and indeed fighting it, as they seem to have a knowledge advantage in coronavirus research. It can not be discounted this virus escaped from a Chinese lab, but we'd have to see real evidence. 

They did not say there is no human to human infection. They said there is no clear evidence of human to human infection.

[ukrules]

6 minutes ago, Logosone said:

One has to consider however if China's statement that human to human transmission was not happening was due to ignorance, rather than design. It's possible as well.

'Hanlons Razor' : "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity"

 

We know for sure that they're not stupid....