Easing of confusion...

[FolkGuitar]

3 hours ago, canthai55 said:

If people allow tracking apps as described above, Kiss Freedom Goodbye.

Track you because it MIGHT help ... !!! And who gets this data ?

But this may very well be the end purpose of the whole C-19 debacle.

 

Do people actually believe that if the Governments wants them, they won't know where to find them? What a laugh!  They already have your name, your address, your phone number, your passport number, and multiple pictures of you. Do you really believe that the Thais along your street won't tell the police where you may be hiding if they came looking?

 

So you go to lunch and are asked for your ID. They don't need to know what you had for lunch. The government certainly isn't going to start sending advertisements based on your marketing preferences!

 

Exactly what freedom are you giving up?  You have ALREADY given all the information the Government needs if they want to find you.  This new ID request is to help track the path of possible contagion. That's all. They have everything else.

Edited May 9, 2020 by FolkGuitar

[Dante99]

6 minutes ago, FolkGuitar said:

 

Do people actually believe that if the Governments wants them, they won't know where to find them? What a laugh!  They already have your name, your address, your phone number, your passport number, and multiple pictures of you. Do you really believe that the Thais along your street won't tell the police where you may be hiding if they came looking?

 

So you go to lunch and are asked for your ID. They don't need to know what you had for lunch. The government certainly isn't going to start sending advertisements based on your marketing preferences!

 

Exactly what freedom are you giving up?  You have ALREADY given all the information the Government needs if they want to find you.  This new ID request is to help track the path of possible contagion. That's all. They have everything else.

Shocking news for those who thought paying cash and wearing a hat would keep them invisible to all government eyes.

 

How long ago did they start installing "security cameras"?  

[FolkGuitar]

14 minutes ago, Dante99 said:

Shocking news for those who thought paying cash and wearing a hat would keep them invisible to all government eyes.

 

How long ago did they start installing "security cameras"?  

 

It reminds me of the old saw about hiding an elephant in a bowl of M&Ms, by painting its toenails red, yellow, and green.

Almost as foolish as thinking, because we use screen names here in ThaiVisa, that the Thai government can't find out our identities, should they wish to.

[connda]

Whether you believe that authoritative dictates are to be followed to the letter, or conversely, you believe that "informed" individuals have the right (even a responsibility) to pick among common sense options - the beauty of living here in Thailand is that you can find a niche that fits your perspective.

If Nero burning Rome feels oppressive, then you have the option to settle in Salarno 50 kilometers away.

Throughout Thailand there are a range of public responses to the government mandates. Generally, the bigger the city where you live, the more dictates, edicts, and pronouncements citizens will be required to follow. And there will be more police as well as military to enforce the dictates and monitor the public as well as more citizens who embrace the government's position and can shame and tattle on "rule breakers" with a degree an anonymity.

 

Then you have rural Thailand. The further you get away from the cities, the less people blindly obey government dictates, the police are less inclined to rigidly enforce pronouncements issued from the big city central governments because the cops are part of the fabric of the community, and although the village is truly a community, individuals can and do act in their own self-interests.

 

So unlike big cities where everything is closed other than Big Box hyper marts and 7/11 and other corporate storefronts, in the village if you didn't read the news it would be difficult to really tell that there were major society breaking laws that had been passed in BKK and the provincial seats.

Out here in the mountain valley rice fields, markets never closed, many small businesses kept their doors open, some restaurant still stayed open, construction and farming continued interrupted, day-laborers still work, some people wear masks but many don't and virtually nobody engages in "social distancing." Life rolls on pretty much as it has before. The major social disruption I see is the closure of the temples, but even there a number of villagers still got together on Visakha Bucha day to clean the temple grounds and plant trees.

Some expats are under the mistaken assumption that all Thai citizens live lock-step with the dictates of their government and support the decisions of their leaders without question in some sort of a community hive-mind.

But I've witnessed three major societal upheavals and a bevy of minor ones including multiple acts of public civil disobedience since I moved here which contradicts that assertion. Thais do not comprise a homogeneous community where all members obediently support their government.

Even within the confines of Thai conformity you can find a lot of individualistic behavior. And that difference in behavior is in rather sharp contrast between city dwellers and rural villagers. Unlike the West, dissent for the 'rules' often manifests not by openly opposing the rules - but by simply ignoring the rules. And when enough people ignore unpopular rules, then that behavior becomes the defacto community standard.
 

Some may say, "It's not that way in my village!"

Maybe not. Thais don't comprise a single homogeneous community. What happens in villages close to major cities may be quiet different than what is transpiring in villages in the rural heartland. There is no 'one size fits all' happening anywhere in this country. 
'Same, same - but different' is the underlying driver.

[Trujillo]

Giving information in a setting where you have no choice, such as for a visa, is unavoidable. That is not the issue here. 

 

But giving personal information to a shop or restaurant or private individual for ... some "health reason" is a different matter. I don't recall any requirement by the authorities to take personal information as a consequence of entering a shop or restaurant. What is the restaurant going to do with this information? Who collates it? How could it be applied to whatever end is the proffered reason to gather it in the first place? 

 

I understand the excuse of, "If you have nothing to hide, what's the problem?" But there is still such a thing as personal privacy. Please give me your bank statements and let me go through all your personal documents; it's just for making everyone safer. Yes, there is nothing illegal in my affairs or papers or dealings, but they are my personal affairs and you have no business or right to demand them. And I am under no compulsion to reveal them to you. 

 

Why don't we start a thread where everyone reports all their financial statements and incomes? No one would post such information (along with your real name and address and passport number) because it's not an appropriate reveal. 

 

If this viral spread was in its infancy, tracing would be a valuable tool, but we are far, far past that stage. The genie is out of the bottle already and trying to trace every infection -- symptomatic and asymptomatic -- would be a pointless errand. 

[Bill97]

26 minutes ago, Trujillo said:

Giving information in a setting where you have no choice, such as for a visa, is unavoidable. That is not the issue here. 

 

But giving personal information to a shop or restaurant or private individual for ... some "health reason" is a different matter. I don't recall any requirement by the authorities to take personal information as a consequence of entering a shop or restaurant. What is the restaurant going to do with this information? Who collates it? How could it be applied to whatever end is the proffered reason to gather it in the first place? 

 

I understand the excuse of, "If you have nothing to hide, what's the problem?" But there is still such a thing as personal privacy. Please give me your bank statements and let me go through all your personal documents; it's just for making everyone safer. Yes, there is nothing illegal in my affairs or papers or dealings, but they are my personal affairs and you have no business or right to demand them. And I am under no compulsion to reveal them to you. 

 

Why don't we start a thread where everyone reports all their financial statements and incomes? No one would post such information (along with your real name and address and passport number) because it's not an appropriate reveal. 

 

If this viral spread was in its infancy, tracing would be a valuable tool, but we are far, far past that stage. The genie is out of the bottle already and trying to trace every infection -- symptomatic and asymptomatic -- would be a pointless errand. 

Why are you going on about financial statements?  Nobody has asked for them.

[FolkGuitar]

1 hour ago, Trujillo said:

Giving information in a setting where you have no choice, such as for a visa, is unavoidable. That is not the issue here. 

 

But giving personal information to a shop or restaurant or private individual for ... some "health reason" is a different matter. I don't recall any requirement by the authorities to take personal information as a consequence of entering a shop or restaurant. What is the restaurant going to do with this information? Who collates it? How could it be applied to whatever end is the proffered reason to gather it in the first place? 

 

I understand the excuse of, "If you have nothing to hide, what's the problem?" But there is still such a thing as personal privacy. Please give me your bank statements and let me go through all your personal documents; it's just for making everyone safer. Yes, there is nothing illegal in my affairs or papers or dealings, but they are my personal affairs and you have no business or right to demand them. And I am under no compulsion to reveal them to you. 

 

Why don't we start a thread where everyone reports all their financial statements and incomes? No one would post such information (along with your real name and address and passport number) because it's not an appropriate reveal. 

 

If this viral spread was in its infancy, tracing would be a valuable tool, but we are far, far past that stage. The genie is out of the bottle already and trying to trace every infection -- symptomatic and asymptomatic -- would be a pointless errand. 

 

No one is asking you for any information that is not already on record with the government.

Nothing that isn't already known.

These forms have been requested (not ordered, simply requested) by the government so as to be able to track and contain the spread of the virus should it spring up again, and shop keepers are doing their part to help contain the virus. Having a list of all the people in a restaurant where the sick person ate is an excellent way to do this, and perhaps keep this virus from infecting even more people.

 

Again... no one is asking you for any information that is not already on record with the government.

And unless you are going to a brothel and prefer it not known... well, I doubt they are taking names anyway... there is no good reason not to comply with these health standards.

 

So please do the rest of the community a favor and sign in when asked. The life you save may be one of your own relatives.

[canthai55]

43 minutes ago, FolkGuitar said:

Again... no one is asking you for any information that is not already on record with the government.

So ... the gov't knows where I am going to eat lunch tomorrow ?

When even I do not know ?

555

[FolkGuitar]

1 hour ago, canthai55 said:

So ... the gov't knows where I am going to eat lunch tomorrow ?

When even I do not know ?

555

 

How droll...

 

The government doesn't give a damn where you will eat lunch tomorrow. Nor does anyone else. Until, that is, someone gets sick in the same place and same time. Then that knowledge can save lives.

IF they know where you DO eat lunch, and someone else who was in the restaurant at the same time as you is admitted to the hospital with the virus, the health authorities can alert all those in the restaurant at the same time as the patient, including you, and perhaps prevent you from spreading the disease to friends and families.  But I think you already know this.

The question is; do you care enough about your friends and family?

[orang37]

21 hours ago, connda said:

... in the village if you didn't read the news it would be difficult to really tell that there were major society breaking laws that had been passed in BKK and the provincial seats.

... Out here in the mountain valley rice fields, markets never closed, many small businesses kept their doors open, some restaurant still stayed open, construction and farming continued interrupted, day-laborers still work, some people wear masks but many don't and virtually nobody engages in "social distancing." Life rolls on pretty much as it has before
 

... Thais do not comprise a homogeneous community where all members obediently support their government.

... Even within the confines of Thai conformity you can find a lot of individualistic behavior. And that difference in behavior is in rather sharp contrast between city dwellers and rural villagers. ,,,
 

... Some may say, "It's not that way in my village!"

Maybe not. Thais don't comprise a single homogeneous community. What happens in villages close to major cities may be quiet different than what is transpiring in villages in the rural heartland.

Please forgive for quoting excerpts from your interesting, articulate, post ... 

 

I think the same "what happens in the village stays in the village" thesis you advance could also be a causal factor in possible under-reporting of covid incidence.

 

I also question the implication that city-dwellers are behaving less individualistically than village dwellers: imho, you are confusing external behavioral constraints with behavior in general.

 

"Thais don't comprise a single homogeneous community." Couldn't agree more, but the inferences you are drawing from your probably affluent village, probably with good health care, are questionable when you consider vast numbers of villages without the facilities you describe, without any health care available without traveling a burdensome distance. Villages impacted by the economic downturn, by drought, etc.

 

You may be living in "the shire:" most  others are not, and, in the cities, the long lines for food assistance are telling another story.

 

Like many expats here, i view the reported county-wide low infection rates, and death rates, with extreme skepticism. However, i must say that in Chiang Mai the lockdown and curfew are being enforced, and social distancing measures are being followed to an extent i never thought possible in this "no rules" culture ... at least in the limited experiences I am having in Rimping, Big C, and in my local Nong Hoi market.

 

~o:37;

[Trujillo]

From my limited contacts with people in the "villages," I find more a sense of distortion, such that people are more fearful than warranted. There seems to be a sense among some village heads that anyone from outside is suspicious and should be either barred from entering or locked away for a couple of weeks. 

You might find your village is quite laissez-faire but I am not sure if this is universal. 

 

My example of finances was facetious, I thought that was obvious. 

 

 

"Like many expats here, i view the reported county-wide low infection rates, and death rates, with extreme skepticism."

 

I'm not at all skeptical. In fact, I am surprised that the numbers are not inflated to better control the public. 

[connda]

1 hour ago, orang37 said:

Couldn't agree more, but the inferences you are drawing from your probably affluent village, probably with good health care, are questionable when you consider vast numbers of villages without the facilities you describe, without any health care available without traveling a burdensome distance. Villages impacted by the economic downturn, by drought, etc.

My "affluent village?"  Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!! 

 

Omg.  That's the funniest thing I've heard in quite awhile.  That's really rich.
I'll let you in on little secret.  If anyone within this 40km long valley had Covid-19, everyone in the valley would know!!!  There is no Thai Health Care conspiracy to under-report Covid-19 numbers because -- there are no cases.  The villages up and down this valley are interconnected by family ties.  You don't keep secrets out here.  Everyone knows everyone else's dirty laundry. 

Another little secret.  Every Amphur in Thailand has a government hospital or clinic just like every Amphur has government offices.  Likewise, almost every Thai who has a pulse and can breath can take out a loan and buy a motorcycle or a truck.  The Thai public's level of indebtedness is a testament to their artificial "affluence."   These folk are not rich - they are seriously in debt to Thai banks and unscrupulous lenders.  But - the poorest of the poor have at least one motorcycle and probably in hock for it.  Virtually everyone has the transportation to get to the Amphur hospitals. And even if you don't have a motorcycle, then there still are the local Songtaws that drive from the villages to the Amphur offices daily.  Also, a lot of Tambons and Moobaans have government mini-clinics as well as government offices.  This has nothing to do with "affluence".  These are government built and sponsored services that are found throughout Thailand - even in the most drought inflicted boondocks of Isaan.  Your statement, "vast numbers of villages without the facilities you describe, without any health care available" is applicable 60 years ago back when the road down this valley accommodated ox carts, there was no electricity, or running water and you were considered rich if you owned a bicycle.  But this 2020.  Not 1960.  The Thai government has built roads, infrastructure, and government facilities spanning this entire country over the last 60 years, and that infrastructure has become even more up-to-date and expanded since the Army takeover after 2014.   

Thanks.  Your Westernized expat perspective was good for a hearty laugh as well as showing exactly what level of misinformed some expat TV members embrace about the realities of Thai rural life.  "Affluent village."   I gotta tell my wife, my kids, and her friends that one. And maybe the people up and down the road living in hovels.  "Hey honey, some farang on Thai Visa says we live in a Rich Village!!!"  They'll get a kick out of that.  Thanks for the humor!  You made my day!

[connda]

1 hour ago, Trujillo said:

From my limited contacts with people in the "villages," I find more a sense of distortion, such that people are more fearful than warranted. There seems to be a sense among some village heads that anyone from outside is suspicious and should be either barred from entering or locked away for a couple of weeks. 

The village heads as well as the villagers are being cautious although I wouldn't say overly fearful.  My brother-in-law works for a cruise line and recently repatriated to the village.  He was quarantined, and was visited by the local cops on occasion to make sure he was staying put.  An that pretty much goes for anyone arriving from other countries or say Bangkok.  But at least here they haven't gone overboard.   I'm the only farang in our valley that I'm aware of.  Nobody has given me any problems.  When I'm out in the village I'm not getting any fearful vibes from the locals  They know me, know who I am, know that I live full time in the village like everyone else. But if outsiders come in, Thai or otherwise, then they'll probably get a visit from the village counsels just to be on the safe side.  There hasn't been any cases out here and everyone wants to keep it that way.

[canthai55]

8 hours ago, FolkGuitar said:

The question is; do you care enough about your friends and family?

As more people die from seasonal Flu, then maybe extend this "where you eat lunch" reporting to include this.

Or Meningitis. Or ...

I could go on and on ...

"But - this is for your own good ... I am from the Gov't and I am hear to Help you ..."

Shades of 1984

[Trujillo]

"...the poorest of the poor have at least one motorcycle and probably in hock for it."

 

And paying back at something nearing 15% interest, which I think is scandalous in a country like this. 

 

I don't think the virus took hold well here in Thailand, even though we had the first infection recorded outside of China. I don't think the heat was a main factor, but I do wonder if we got a weaker mutated strain. There are various ones out there, I read. (Some speculate that is why there is such a difference between NYC and the West Coast.)

 

The real unfortunate thing here is the level of misguided fear. I mean when you see people wearing masks on motorbike and bizarrely, in private cars, you know a few screws have come loose. 

 

 

[FolkGuitar]

58 minutes ago, canthai55 said:

As more people die from seasonal Flu, then maybe extend this "where you eat lunch" reporting to include this.

Or Meningitis. Or ...

I could go on and on ...

 

 

Yes, you tend to.  But this is about Covid-19, not about the Flu or Meningitis, so please don't deflect.

Many different governments are using this same method to track the paths of contagion, successfully isolating people who have been in close contact with people who are seriously ill.

That reduces the contagion path, and perhaps saves a lot of lives.
Frankly, I think that's a good thing.

[canthai55]

Frankly, I know this is a control thing

You are entitled to your opinion

As I am

[FolkGuitar]

1 hour ago, canthai55 said:

Frankly, I know this is a control thing

You are entitled to your opinion

As I am

 

Of course it's a control thing!  No one has ever said otherwise. And it works!

The government is trying to control the spread of this virus. And this is a very effective method to do so, which is why it is being done now in so many different countries.

To think it anything else is little more than paranoia.

[Trujillo]

I think the issue now is that how much control is addressing the actual issue of a virus and how much is either overreach or ineptitude. 

 

One vexing thing is that governments have had no mechanisms for adaptive behavior in its mandates regarding "lockdowns" or constraints on freedoms. I totally agree that right in the beginning we should have been thinking of the transmissiblity and danger of the new virus, but very quickly we knew more and more about what was going on. Yet, not only did governments not adapt to this new information (and continuing new understanding), they instituted regimes with "one size fits all" mentalities. This was wrong then and is wrong now. 

Don't believe the mainstream media's bleating that, "It's a new virus and we don't understand it!" Corona-type viruses have been studied for many years and during the past 3+ months we have large numbers data and more insights into this newest one. There are provinces in Thailand that have never had a single case, but they are also under restrictions as if they were a hotspot of infection. This is bullheaded thinking and unfortunately, common. 

 

My sense is that I will, begrudgingly, do what is asked of me by localities and government, but if there is clear overreach that is not specifically required, I still have the personal freedom to make a choice about following the herd or not. 

[canthai55]

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

 C-19 6.9% death rate of those infected

https://www.medscape.com/answers/219557-3459/what-is-the-global-incidence-of-influenza

Seasonal Flu 8.3 to 10% death rate of those infected

My question still stands - why such a dramatic response to C-19 ?

Of course, no one answers this. Still run around like a horse with blinders on, refusing to see anything other than what is directly in front of them.

"It is for the good of the community" is pure deflection.

Where were they in spouting this line of manure regarding all the other ills which are much more prevalent, cause way more deaths ?

Another question not being addressed, or even acknowledged.

And this talk of App tracking - a slippery slope leading to who knows what.

But ... make up your own mind. I have long ago found ways to circumvent most "policies" of the friendly neighborhood "Gov't" who try to stomp on any and all freedoms which people enjoy, in all the countries I have lived in.

This latest is no different.

Hasta La Vista

[Bill97]

2 hours ago, canthai55 said:

 

My question still stands - why such a dramatic response to C-19 ?

 

Do you not believe that the health care infrastructure has been unable to provide needed services in a ceremony significant portion of the world?

[orang37]

What can I say except that this thread should be re-titled "maximizing confusion by a drug-cocktail consisting of 80% ignorance of science ...

 

plus 20% paranoiac fantasies of surveillance state conspiracies." like:

 

Quote

“If the corona curves continue to crest, Covid-19 might expose as much about the dead hand of capitalism (the corruption, the hubris, the greed) as Chernobyl ever did about communism.” Ben Schott; Diary; The Spectator (London, UK); Apr 4, 2020.

 

Suggested readings:

 

click: The Great Influenza pandemic of 1918

 

click: the Plague of ~1200CE

 

click: Daniel Defoe 'A Journal of the Plague Year'

 

If you are interested in how disease and epidemics have powerful influences on culture:

 

click: Mirage of Health Rene Dubos 1959

 

click: 'Guns, Germs, and Steel' Jared Diamond 1997

 

From literature to history to society to culture to behavior to child-rearing ... and versa-vicea:

 

click: “As catching as the plague, though not all so general”: Syphilis in Tudor and Stuart literature

 

~o:37;

 

 

[FolkGuitar]

2 hours ago, canthai55 said:

And this talk of App tracking - a slippery slope leading to who knows what.

But ... make up your own mind. I have long ago found ways to circumvent most "policies" of the friendly neighborhood "Gov't" who try to stomp on any and all freedoms which people enjoy, in all the countries I have lived in.

This latest is no different.

Hasta La Vista

 

"a slippery slope leading to who knows what."   Wow! Such blatant paranoid thinking!  

I've lived in several different countries myself, and never felt as if I was giving up any freedoms in any of them. Obviously, I've had to comply with local laws, but never felt so threatened as to think I was giving up my freedom on ANY rational level.

I certainly don't feel put upon here in Thailand.

 

[Trujillo]

"I've lived in several different countries myself, and never felt as if I was giving up any freedoms in any of them. "

 

Me too, including a couple years under martial law, and I would say I "never felt as if I was giving up any freedoms in any of them," until now.

The "until now" has been a unique reaction (in our lifetimes) to a situation that, as it turns out (and if any history ...factual, objective history, is to ever be written again), wasn't at all what we first thought it might have been. 

 

I don't think any man in Thailand would enthusiastically consent to having his whereabouts (via a carried phone) known for any reason unless it was very, very dire and afterwords the app would be disabled and deleted.

Imagine your wife or girlfriend getting a hold of that.... >..<

 

[FolkGuitar]

2 hours ago, Trujillo said:

I don't think any man in Thailand would enthusiastically consent to having his whereabouts (via a carried phone) known for any reason unless it was very, very dire and afterwords the app would be disabled and deleted.

Imagine your wife or girlfriend getting a hold of that.... >..<

 

 

Absurd at the very least...

I don't give a damn if the government OR my wife know where I am. Why should I care?

Why would any honest husband worry that his wife knew where he was?

Unless, of course, he wasn't an honest husband.

Do you routinely lie to your wife? Do you really think all men do?

 

Have you been breaking the law?

Last I knew, the Thai government isn't interested in rounding up innocent people.

Hardly the problem of, as you seem to think, of every man in Thailand.

[Trujillo]

Interesting that a person would immediately glom onto the satirical part of my post as the most important. 

 

I am single so I don't have any issue about that, but my point was no man (I used that since I assume that 98% of all ThaiVisa posters are male) would enjoy having his whereabouts monitored, by someone he doesn't know or likely trust. 

 

And yes, I think all couples lie to each other in what your mother called, "white lies." Or lies by omission. Don't worry, I think God will forgive you.... ????

 

And you should know as well as anyone that Thai woman (and many male farangs with Thai women) are crazy about "What are you doing?" and "Where did you go?" I am constantly amazed at women I know who have farang "boyfriends" who must have "face time" with them on Skype or LINE or Facebook every day. 

Are you implying that all men are totally honest with their opposite numbers? 

 

And I never said anything about being "rounded up" over tracking. But that's what jumps into your mind first thing. Interesting. That's perhaps a topic you could start yourself.

 

I don't think tracing apps are something that we need for a virus, or a flu or an alcoholic or someone just released from prison. But maybe you do; if they are innocent, and the government or a shop or a company can come up with a reason -- whatever it might be -- to track these people, so be it.

 

Not me. Not if I have a say. Do we have a say? 

 

 

[FolkGuitar]

You dance nicely.

[canthai55]

4 hours ago, Trujillo said:

Interesting that a person would immediately glom onto the satirical part of my post as the most important.

Some people - when their world view is threatened, when someone points out how absurd their fears are, retaliate in such a manner.

The way of the world

[canthai55]

4 hours ago, Trujillo said:

I don't think tracing apps are something that we need for a virus, or a flu or an alcoholic or someone just released from prison.

My concern is that this is another tiny step along the path of losing personal freedoms.

It is never a giant removal, just gov't taking away tiny bits here and there, and like the straw that broke the camels back, one day there is nothing left to take away.

Reminds me of this quote -

 

[BritManToo]

Just now, canthai55 said:

My concern is that this is another tiny step along the path of losing personal freedoms.

It is never a giant removal, just gov't taking away tiny bits here and there, and like the straw that broke the camels back, one day there is nothing left to take away.

You think no air travel, borders closed, no social gathering, all bars closed, no swimming in the sea or sitting on the beach, the right to enter search and drug test people at home asleep at night, is a 'tiny step'?

Edited May 11, 2020 by BritManToo