Early end to U.S. state lockdowns could cause needless 'suffering and death' - Fauci

[Crazy Alex]

1 hour ago, jimmybcool said:

Curious what part of the US you are in.  I am in Arizona and my direct experience is:

 

Restaurants are closed

Distancing is practiced everywhere

No one shakes hands now

 

So where are you located?  I'd like to avoid that particular area for a while longer.  

In my state, we have many counties with zero or very few deaths and/or infections. I'm not sure why people think everyone needs to cave in to demands that everyone wear a mask. Seems very strange to me.

[Crazy Alex]

57 minutes ago, Throatwobbler said:

Oh guys please play nice on Crazy Alex. You do understand that you are asking him to read a long government document. Personally I think the hungry hungry caterpillar is above his grade level for reading.

I hardly think seven Power Point slides constitute a "long government document". I think you are getting a little carried away with hating on me. While I'm flattered, I suggest a change in direction. May I suggest we try and focus on the topic?

 

Here, I'll take the first step. Given how many wrong and different "models" Dr. Fauci has presented, please tell me why we should take more doom and gloom predictions from him seriously.

[metisdead]

Personal attack posts, inflammatory posts and the replies have been removed. 

[candide]

1 hour ago, Crazy Alex said:

I hardly think seven Power Point slides constitute a "long government document". I think you are getting a little carried away with hating on me. While I'm flattered, I suggest a change in direction. May I suggest we try and focus on the topic?

 

Here, I'll take the first step. Given how many wrong and different "models" Dr. Fauci has presented, please tell me why we should take more doom and gloom predictions from him seriously.

And Trump, who advocates opening, has a proven record of mak8ng reliable predictions....????????????????

[scorecard]

10 hours ago, dieter1 said:

what is most disturbing and frightening for me:

In the US (and in many other  countries similair) there is no real and effective open controversy / dispute possible (any more). Its just: if its come from the President it is evel and the left wing /Democratics must oppose it.

Thats the most frightening aspect about this affair (Corono Pandemic).

And before you start argue about "saving lives must be priority ..". The shut down of the country, does effect a lot of other health related issues. It means, the help for people with  other diseases (and these are way more then the so called "Corona cases") are very limited now in consequence of the reactions of the governements. There will be (or are allready)

a lot of deaths and suffering because of these lockdowns and redirecting  resources for Corona.

These "sideeffects" are allready huge, but - for whatever reasons- most governemts and  most of the medias are nearly blocking out these aspects.

just for a start of understanding these sideeffects:

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/may/06/millions-develop-tuberculosis-tb-covid-19-lockdown

 

and yes, as you could expect it: the most  vulnerable  are the poor people (or if you like it more: the "underprivileged").

These people have less resources in every aspects: less money, worse health, worse ability to get good medical care etc.. Meaning they are most effected by a  virus but also (!) most effected by the side effect of the restriction imposed by the governements. And it is to expect, that these sideffects will also lead to many losses of lives in these groups.

 

The extreme economical  recession as the effect of the reactions of the governements in this Corona-crises (not the  effect of the virus!) are effecting mostly the poorest part of the world population. I think, no one will actually doupt that.

You can see that (if you alollow your self it to be seen) every where: These people are the first loosing their jobs. These people have no resourses left, when they loose their daily wages.Many of these people (millions ..) are allready (in consequence of the economical lock down) not able to buy their daily food they need etc. , not able to get (pay for) medical aid when needed, pay for their shelter etc.

 

 

From your second paragraph of your post I have no dispute with your comment, already well known and yes very sad.

 

But i do challenge your first paragraph: 

 

- IMHO there are many valid reasons why plenty of folks see the clown as evil.

 

- The democrats must oppose it - well that how it is in the politics of the US (and other countries) and it works both ways and the clown himself has issued hundreds of tweets before he became the president, many aimed at Obama, and no matter what Obama did or said, and the clowns claims Obama wasn't born in the USA both before and after it was well proved he was. 

[scorecard]

2 hours ago, Crazy Alex said:

I hardly think seven Power Point slides constitute a "long government document". I think you are getting a little carried away with hating on me. While I'm flattered, I suggest a change in direction. May I suggest we try and focus on the topic?

 

Here, I'll take the first step. Given how many wrong and different "models" Dr. Fauci has presented, please tell me why we should take more doom and gloom predictions from him seriously.

Oh really, please share...

[jimmybcool]

2 hours ago, Crazy Alex said:

In my state, we have many counties with zero or very few deaths and/or infections. I'm not sure why people think everyone needs to cave in to demands that everyone wear a mask. Seems very strange to me.

Masks are still not something everyone wears everywhere.  In the grocery store about half of the customers wear one.  I have been researching a new car I need and visited many dealerships and it is rare a salesman wears a mask.  Like not at all so far.  But cashiers in the grocers are behind plexiglass and wear gloves.  

 

Maricopa county has 6500 cases of Covid-19 as of today.  Population is about 4.5 million.  

 

I think we need to carefully begin to open our country.  Yeah, we will have more sick but the damage done to our country via it's economy can also be measured in human lives and futures.  

 

 

 

[Crazy Alex]

19 minutes ago, jimmybcool said:

Masks are still not something everyone wears everywhere.  In the grocery store about half of the customers wear one.  I have been researching a new car I need and visited many dealerships and it is rare a salesman wears a mask.  Like not at all so far.  But cashiers in the grocers are behind plexiglass and wear gloves.  

 

Maricopa county has 6500 cases of Covid-19 as of today.  Population is about 4.5 million.  

 

I think we need to carefully begin to open our country.  Yeah, we will have more sick but the damage done to our country via it's economy can also be measured in human lives and futures.  

 

 

 

Your last paragraph is what it's all about IMHO. Ultimately, someone has to do a cost/benefit analysis of keeping the economy closed. We save X lives. But at what expense? The US is supposed to be a free country. Open things up. That doesn't mean people HAVE to go out. If people are scared, they can stay home. Their choice.

[scorecard]

4 hours ago, Crazy Alex said:

OK, so you're American. My bad. Tyranny? How about people live the way they want? And Pale Rider? Huh? What's so tough about not wearing a mask? Many if not most areas of the country have very few infections and deaths. Who are you to tell people to wear a mask without knowing their situation? Yes, you were talking about tyranny. You just didn't recognize it was you engaging in it.

 

https://apps.texastribune.org/features/2020/texas-coronavirus-cases-map/

 

Many counties in Texas have few to no deaths or infections. Who are you to tell people how to live when you don't have enough facts to be making rational demands? "In general, don't be a <deleted> moron". Great idea.

 

"...How about people live the way they want?..."

 

Sure, but what about in a time of great problems we act as a co-joined community and respect each other and all try to reduce/stop this very contagious virus. Is that not simple and effective logic? Yes it is.

 

Is it really so difficult? No it's not.

 

Why do you have to make it all so complex? We all need to work together using simple preventative measures to protect each other, it's that simple. 

 

 

[stevenl]

1 hour ago, scorecard said:

 

"...How about people live the way they want?..."

 

Sure, but what about in a time of great problems we act as a co-joined community and respect each other and all try to reduce/stop this very contagious virus. Is that not simple and effective logic? Yes it is.

 

Is it really so difficult? No it's not.

 

Why do you have to make it all so complex? We all need to work together using simple preventative measures to protect each other, it's that simple. 

 

 

Because it is the land of the free. I do what I want and don't care about the consequences for anybody else.

[Crazy Alex]

1 hour ago, scorecard said:

 

"...How about people live the way they want?..."

 

Sure, but what about in a time of great problems we act as a co-joined community and respect each other and all try to reduce/stop this very contagious virus. Is that not simple and effective logic? Yes it is.

 

Is it really so difficult? No it's not.

 

Why do you have to make it all so complex? We all need to work together using simple preventative measures to protect each other, it's that simple. 

 

 

Solid points for making me feel warm and fuzzy. The reality is different parts of the country and even different parts of states have different needs for slowing or stopping virus cases and deaths.

[scorecard]

7 minutes ago, Crazy Alex said:

Solid points for making me feel warm and fuzzy. The reality is different parts of the country and even different parts of states have different needs for slowing or stopping virus cases and deaths.

So what would you like Dr. Fauci to do/say?

 

Surely his comments are generic and vast numbers of Americans, regardless of location, would accept his comments as generic?

[scorecard]

15 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Because it is the land of the free. I do what I want and don't care about the consequences for anybody else.

Sure, point taken and I thank my lucky stars that I was born and raised in a county where there's a strong attitude and concern to take care of and support each other. 

[Odysseus123]

24 minutes ago, scorecard said:

Sure, point taken and I thank my lucky stars that I was born and raised in a county where there's a strong attitude and concern to take care of and support each other. 

Always remembering Georges Clemenceau's classic quote.."America is the only country that I know of that went from barbarism to decadence without any intervening stages.."

Hence it's very high level of Christian evangelical primitivism, its worship of the holy dollar and it's extremely dualistic interpretation of the world around it.

[spidermike007]

16 hours ago, Mikeasq60 said:

Im from the US whats the point of your comment?

If you had taken the time to look just one or two comments up the page, you would see that I was leveling criticism at the US over Covid. Since you could not be bothered to look it up, here it is: For the world at large, looking at America right now, they appear to be the most pitiful and utterly hapless and incompetent nation on earth. Make America great again? How about make America moderately competent?

 

The poster was asking where I was from, that I could compare my nation to the response of the US, I suppose.

[stevenl]

6 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

If you had taken the time to look just one or two comments up the page, you would see that I was leveling criticism at the US over Covid. Since you could not be bothered to look it up, here it is: For the world at large, looking at America right now, they appear to be the most pitiful and utterly hapless and incompetent nation on earth. Make America great again? How about make America moderately competent?

 

The poster was asking where I was from, that I could compare my nation to the response of the US, I suppose.

And the poster asking the question is the same poster who said 'what's the point of your comment'.

[spidermike007]

16 hours ago, Walker88 said:

Perhaps you're long removed from any Civics course you might have taken, so let me give you a polite reminder that the Chief of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases was not given any Article 1 powers by the Founders, nor has any subsequent Congress in 244 years bestowed on such a person the degree of power he would need to shut the country down. Thus, Dr Fauci only deals in facts, not orders. Like anyone, he is entitled to state an opinion, but no one need follow it.

 

Also, the Founders allowed the States to retain a lot of powers, so each Governor has the legal right to decide what emergency actions might be taken within the borders of his or her State. In case you have forgotten---as I see you used the term "unelected"---Governors are elected by the citizens of their State.

 

Yes, the US is running behind Belgium, the UK, Spain and Italy, inter alia in CV-19 deaths per capita, but the US still is in the top 10 of the 187 countries, on a per capita death basis, where CV-19 has been found. The record is not----what's the word----good. The US was ill-prepared, and the Administration wasted valuable time not acting when the warnings were first given to him by various members of his govt. The US was also greatly hampered by the fact that the existing Pandemic Response Team created under President Obama had been disbanded by 45, and the Pandemic Response Manuals Obama' people produced were never accessed. The manuals outlined procedures, required equipment, and noted that under the NDA a POTUS can order manufacturing facilities to produce needed items, such as PPE or ventilators. This could have been done as early as January.  Instead, absolutely nothing was done for months, and statements contrary to reality were issued daily out of the WH.

 

Finally, some 80% of Americans polled do not want to return to work and a normal routine until there is more comprehensive testing and contact tracing. They want the same degree of protection 45 has mandated for his own place of work. Actually, people are asking for something less than 45 has mandated, as he demands all West Wing and White House staff be tested every day.

 

The US, up to now, and nearing 5 months since 45 knew the virus was coming, has tested only 9.6 million citizens. Since you seem to like 'per 100,000', that is way below the rate of testing in most countries. 45 claimed he could do 5 million tests a day. That seems at odds with the reality of a mere 9.6 million over several months.

Good points. As usual 45 (actually calling him 44 would be more accurate, when you consider he is the 44th worst president in history) is lying. That is what he does. He has a bizarre relationship with truth, and taking his words as being factual is something people do at their own peril. He is highly embarrassed at his administration's response to Covid, which is comparably dismal to Bush Jr's. response to Katrina. So, he does what he does. He covers his shame in bluster, and just makes things up on the fly. Facts seem to be meaningless to this man, and a percentage of his less intelligent supporters. No worries. He will be unceremoniously ushered out of DC within 8 months time. To a life of utter humiliation, and declining fortunes. 

 

The shame of all of this, is that the US could have done so much better, had many of the facts that you outlined not happened. And they did happen due to an astonishing degree of hubris, ignorance, arrogance, and indifference to public safety, and not necessarily due to the incompetence of the medical industry, and poor quality of the system, which in my opinion is not nearly as good as it is given credit for being. 

[Tie Dye Samurai]

17 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

Good points. As usual 45 (actually calling him 44 would be more accurate, when you consider he is the 44th worst president in history) is lying. That is what he does. He has a bizarre relationship with truth, and taking his words as being factual is something people do at their own peril.

The relationship Trump has with the truth is about the same as a vampire's relationship with holy water and wooden stakes...

[Mikeasq60]

16 hours ago, Eric Loh said:

That is a very low bar you set up for Trump when the infections and deaths in US are highest by a wide margin with the rest of the world. Even the testing is way off some of the developed countries averages. 

Where are you getting your figures from these numbers. You realize their counting overdose deaths, auto accidents, suicides, gun shot deaths things completely unrelated so the liberals can maintain the narrative! Most people are awoke in each country, yes even Thailand!

[stevenl]

13 minutes ago, Mikeasq60 said:

Where are you getting your figures from these numbers. You realize their counting overdose deaths, auto accidents, suicides, gun shot deaths things completely unrelated so the liberals can maintain the narrative! Most people are awoke in each country, yes even Thailand!

Completely incorrect.

[Eric Loh]

15 minutes ago, Mikeasq60 said:

Where are you getting your figures from these numbers. You realize their counting overdose deaths, auto accidents, suicides, gun shot deaths things completely unrelated so the liberals can maintain the narrative! Most people are awoke in each country, yes even Thailand!

Most experts said the numbers are far higher and you ain't an expert. Higher by as much as 15% and we will have a better picture once the pandemic subside enough for officials to go back and make a full reckoning of the deaths. Under-count deaths in this particular pandemic is happening all over the world. Take for instance, CDC analysis of the H1N1 swine flu outbreak in the US in the 2009 & 2010 concluded that the actual deaths was likely 15 times higher than officially recorded figures. When the real data is revealed, it will magnify the incompetence of Trump to protect his own people. 

[scorecard]

4 hours ago, Crazy Alex said:

Your last paragraph is what it's all about IMHO. Ultimately, someone has to do a cost/benefit analysis of keeping the economy closed. We save X lives. But at what expense? The US is supposed to be a free country. Open things up. That doesn't mean people HAVE to go out. If people are scared, they can stay home. Their choice.

And if you go out and about without restrictions and you catch the virus and get very sick then I wonder f you will start saying 'why didn't they do something to massively reduce the spread of the virus'?

 

Plus if you go out and get the virus, then I guess, given your attitude, you'll keep moving around as you please / no restrictions and your thinking in terms of others will be 'their problem, not mine'.  

[radiochaser]

On 5/12/2020 at 7:15 PM, Slosheroni said:

The amount of stupid in the US is astonishing.  Nobody keeps their distance. Nobody wears a mask.  People still shake hands. And yet the amount of armchair epidemiologists is through the roof.  These are the same Einsteins who went to a packed restaurant on Mother's Day just to show how tough they are.  Then, they complain about restrictions????   If anyone had common sense they'd be able to open and keep the virus from surging again.  Maybe this is all evolution. 

None of what you claim is happening in the U.S. is occuring where I live.  Everyone wears a mask around other people and in buisnesses, people are keeping distances, and the people I don't know and even many of those I do, will not let you get close enough to shake hands!

Are you talking about NYC where cuomo was telling people at the beginning, to go out, live normaly, and go to the restaurants?

 

[Eric Loh]

8 minutes ago, radiochaser said:

Are you talking about NYC where cuomo was telling people at the beginning, to go out, live normaly, and go to the restaurants?

Trump is the President. No? He said the same thing at the beginning and added that it will go away like a miracle. 

[Mavideol]

23 hours ago, Mavideol said:

haven't seen any twitter yet but still early, let's wait a bit and quite sure he will start the rant

as expected the twitter rants started as soon as he woke up 555 .... the guy (Trump) must have a miserable life, never saw him smile or make a joke about anything, it must be a pleasure being on his presence

[ChouDoufu]

9 hours ago, Crazy Alex said:

I hardly think seven Power Point slides constitute a "long government document". I think you are getting a little carried away with hating on me. While I'm flattered, I suggest a change in direction. May I suggest we try and focus on the topic?

 

Here, I'll take the first step. Given how many wrong and different "models" Dr. Fauci has presented, please tell me why we should take more doom and gloom predictions from him seriously.

i'm getting the feeling you are not interested in discussions to gain knowledge, but rather simply in arguing.  this is neither a personal attack nor an accusation, simply my perception.  i certainly could be wrong.

 

you asked about the "playbook."  instead of googling it yourself, you wanted to be told what was in it.  i gave you a link to the document, so you could read it without it being interpreted by biased reporters.  you responded with a snarky comment about the title, and joked about guidance.  i gave you a link to an article about an emergency response excercise during the transition.  you responded with a "haha".

 

your comment about 7 power point slides not being a big document ignores the 69-page playbook you apparently refuse to even look at.

 

as to wrong and different models, that's just science.  as new information comes in, the models change, thus the predictions change.  if we, for example, expect a vaccine to be available in the summer, we can predict 75K deaths.  but if the virus proves to be mutating faster than anticipated, the model changes. the vaccine could come in december, and we now predict 150K deaths. 

 

or in this case, the first model assumes we continue the lockdown for another couple of weeks and open responsibly.  the new model takes into consideration the president pushing governors of certain states to open before the virus has been sufficiently contained in their areas.  when the variables change, the old model is no longer valid.

 

science is fact-based, not ideological dogma.

[scorecard]

18 hours ago, Lacessit said:

You forgot the most critical function of all - the ability to fact check every false bit of information that is posted on the internet. Good luck with that too.

And start your fact checking work at the top, at #45

[candide]

17 hours ago, rabas said:

This is no time for Donald Trump’s record of hysteria and xenophobia — hysterical xenophobia — and fearmongering,” said Biden the day after the travel restrictions were imposed.

 

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/trump-biden-spin-china-travel-restrictions/

 

China called him racist but it was carried by the MSM, of course!

 

Biden does not mention the CHINA travel ban.

[Rimmer]

A baiting post and a reply removed.

 

A personal attack removed.

[ChouDoufu]

so i updated my vpn this morning, and fired that puppy up to jump the great firewall, started the daily routine with visiting the bbc....

 

pathetic.  just pathetic.  only a 48-second video included, so will need to find the full briefing to see if it wasn't taken out of context.  but this.  the man has lost his mind.  no longer tethered to reality.

 

US President Donald Trump has said a sobering warning by his top infectious diseases expert about lifting pandemic restrictions too soon was unacceptable.

He accused Dr Anthony Fauci of wanting "to play all sides of the equation" in his testimony to lawmakers on Tuesday.

 

The president said he was especially dissatisfied with Dr Fauci's caution around reopening schools too quickly.

 

Coronavirus: Trump says Dr Fauci's warning 'not acceptable'

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52656959