Early end to U.S. state lockdowns could cause needless 'suffering and death' - Fauci

[stevenl]

Good article on Fauci's position here, https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/05/coronavirus-crisis-anthony-fauci-is-not-the-villain/

[jimmybcool]

30 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Good article on Fauci's position here, https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/05/coronavirus-crisis-anthony-fauci-is-not-the-villain/

Obviously with his credentials and resume he should be listened to.  And we need to remember his primary focus is saving lives from this virus.  Our leaders (Trump and others in both parties) are responsible for more than just that.  Our future economically is also of importance and is a factor.  For those who say there is no way to place a value on human life I say nonsense.  We do it all the time.  

 

So I hope he is listened to and I hope our leaders factor his comments in.  But the big decisions include aspects Fauci isn't involved in.  We may open sooner than he would like and that is reality.

 

 

 

 

 

[Langsuan Man]

4 hours ago, Crazy Alex said:

The US instituted flight restrictions from China on the same day Italy did

Unfortunately the vast majority of cases were brought into the US by visitors from Europe, not China

[cmarshall]

1 hour ago, Langsuan Man said:

Unfortunately the vast majority of cases were brought into the US by visitors from Europe, not China

Trump only blocked flights from China on about Jan. 31, becoming the 46th nation to do so.  He blocked flights from Europe on Mar. 11, but excluded the UK and Ireland where he owned golf courses. 

 

So, racism and self-dealing not so helpful in protecting the health of Americans after all.

[Nigel Garvie]

6 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Wish all those well off with nothing to fear about losing their livelihood so called experts would stop blaming the destruction of economies on the virus when it's government actions that have cause the crisis.

 

I'll bet none of those that want to continue lockdown are faced with losing their jobs, income, and perhaps even their lives due to the government imposed lockdowns.

The virus is the problem, full stop. No virus - no problem. Some Governments have certainly made it worse -US, UK, and Brazil for example and some have made the problem less severe, like Germany and NZ.  Strangely enough many of the countries with the best performance have been lead by women. If I was being over simplistic I would say that was because women care about people, and men care about money, it is worth considering though. 

 

Losing your job, and income is a bad one for sure. Suicides do increase to some extent, but nothing remotely like CV 19 deaths.  However we have been through the great depression, the bankers depression, and many many more. Unless we have all become wimps we shall have to fight our way out of this one also. The difference in approach is how many dead other people you would be willing to accept to restart your sacred economies. It is possible that despite people being well off, retired and safely out of the workforce, and isolated, they will die also.

 

Any impression people have that (Virus or no virus) you press some magic button and suddenly 25% of the population gets re-employed, and the economy promptly starts to boom is utterly idiotic. There are places for people who think like this, featured in "One flew over the cuckoo's nest." You might even meet 45 there.

 

It will be really tough, it will take a long time, many years. The young, the poor, and the ordinary workers will bear most of the pain. One day they may revolt, and stop subsidising - surplus to requirements- old folks like many of us. They will probably think it's a pity the guillotine was dismantled, still time for justice to the US bankers who gave us the last depression.

Edited May 16, 2020 by Nigel Garvie

[Tie Dye Samurai]

18 hours ago, Sheryl said:

There is not a scenario here under which there is no economic loss and pain. It is a balancing act, or should be, not an 'all or nothing' approach.

Unfortunately somebody desperate to be re-elected and that thrives on division and not unity is the one setting the tone since he is the one in power...it is sad that one side is being painted as patriots that are warriors going out to fight the invisible enemy and the other side that is concerned for their safety and wants a sensible well thought plan to get back are being portrayed as cowards, traitors and motivated to ruin an economy to influence an election. 

 

Everybody wants back and everybody is obviously feeling the pain...to suggest otherwise is just sad...

[Sheryl]

The real pressure to reopen is not coming from the working and middle classes, though there is a concentrated effort and disinformation campaign to try to rally them and make it seem that way.

 

And these are not whom Trump et al are responding to.

 

It is the moneyed 1% -- whose funds he is dependent on for his campaign -- that are behind it. Because they can read the tea leaves on this and see that increased taxes (whether by rate or closure of loopholes) on the rich are the only way that the massive public assistance needs can be met.

 

 

 

 

[tlock]

57 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

The real pressure to reopen is not coming from the working and middle classes, though there is a concentrated effort and disinformation campaign to try to rally them and make it seem that way.

 

And these are not whom Trump et al are responding to.

 

It is the moneyed 1% -- whose funds he is dependent on for his campaign -- that are behind it. Because they can read the tea leaves on this and see that increased taxes (whether by rate or closure of loopholes) on the rich are the only way that the massive public assistance needs can be met.

 

 

 

 

I don't think it's that simple to say the working and middle classes don't support re-opening.  We have elections to determine what people want.  I think if there were statewide referendums, it would be pretty split along party lines on which states support re-opening vs. which do not, as opposed to being split along classlines.  

[thaibeachlovers]

3 hours ago, Nigel Garvie said:

It will be really tough, it will take a long time, many years. The young, the poor, and the ordinary workers will bear most of the pain. One day they may revolt, and stop subsidising - surplus to requirements- old folks like many of us. They will probably think it's a pity the guillotine was dismantled, still time for justice to the US bankers who gave us the last depression.

I agree it will be tough, very tough indeed for the younger generation and that to come  as they are the ones that have to repay the loans that have been used to stave off rebellion.

To do that I don't see how they can have as good a standard of living as most of us did. Taxes are the obvious way to pay the debt, and if taxes go up the taxed go down.

 

This is going to be a monumental shock to the western youth of today that mostly have never known what it is like to go without. They have been the beneficiaries of peace and prosperity, but that has been rudely taken away. Last year they only had to decide of which gender they proposed to be and what they were going to do about climate change. Now they face the prospect of not being given the latest i phone, going without an overseas holiday, traveling in a second hand car and having to possibly do a real job that involves getting dirty.

In NZ the government are trying to get the unemployed to work in agriculture which needs many workers and obviously no overseas workers are coming to do the jobs locals don't want to. Imagine having to get up at 5am to milk cows and actually work hard!

 

One way of providing more jobs would be if all retired age people were forced to stop work so that younger people could have a job, but that would mean increasing the pension so pensioners could actually afford to not work. I can see pensioners having to be audited to see if they actually need a pension, given the government is broke.

 

Anyway, the reality has not even struck home yet, given that most have either just got out of lockdown or are still in lockdown. It'll be interesting times to come, I doubt not.

[Nigel Garvie]

3 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I agree it will be tough, very tough indeed for the younger generation and that to come  as they are the ones that have to repay the loans that have been used to stave off rebellion.

To do that I don't see how they can have as good a standard of living as most of us did. Taxes are the obvious way to pay the debt, and if taxes go up the taxed go down.

 

This is going to be a monumental shock to the western youth of today that mostly have never known what it is like to go without. They have been the beneficiaries of peace and prosperity, but that has been rudely taken away. Last year they only had to decide of which gender they proposed to be and what they were going to do about climate change. Now they face the prospect of not being given the latest i phone, going without an overseas holiday, traveling in a second hand car and having to possibly do a real job that involves getting dirty.

In NZ the government are trying to get the unemployed to work in agriculture which needs many workers and obviously no overseas workers are coming to do the jobs locals don't want to. Imagine having to get up at 5am to milk cows and actually work hard!

 

One way of providing more jobs would be if all retired age people were forced to stop work so that younger people could have a job, but that would mean increasing the pension so pensioners could actually afford to not work. I can see pensioners having to be audited to see if they actually need a pension, given the government is broke.

 

Anyway, the reality has not even struck home yet, given that most have either just got out of lockdown or are still in lockdown. It'll be interesting times to come, I doubt not.

I gave you a laugh, because in parts it was indeed funny.

Para 1........agree

Para 2 .........funny.......... However I think though you failed to mention that the boomers have also been the beneficiaries of peace and prosperity.  WE have not had to fight apart from those few in the US's imperial wars for control of oil etc. Most of us westerners have not known hunger, and a vast number have not even got their hands dirty.  You can share your experience of getting up at 5am to milk cows later!

 

My girlfriend here, was often hungry as a child, at one point she walked 20km a day to go to school. She never had electricity till she was near age 30.  Now that's a different life, and it would do today's students no harm at all to experience it for a while.

 

Problem is that there are quite a few generations between the retired, and the college students, about whom your observations are amusing. The people that I know in their 30s/40s/50s/ all work fairly hard. Their problem is that they missed the property boom that gave many of "Us" totally absurd money for no work whatsoever. And they can't even afford to put the deposit for a house down. Meanwhile they are paying for our state occupational pensions that we totally underfunded, and the debt now amounts to 1 trillion (UK pounds).

 

Whenever we lockdown, the problem of recovery is going to damage the world for many years. I expect it will never be the same.

[Langsuan Man]

18 hours ago, Sheryl said:

It is the moneyed 1% -- whose funds he is dependent on for his campaign -- that are behind it. Because they can read the tea leaves on this and see that increased taxes (whether by rate or closure of loopholes) on the rich are the only way that the massive public assistance needs can be met.

 

Fortunately a medical expert has weighed in, and next to Doctor Fauci, I trust Sheryl the most 

[PatOngo]

Early end to U.S. state lockdowns could cause needless 'suffering and death'

"Totally applaudable!" "Yes!"

 

 

[tlock]

3 hours ago, Langsuan Man said:

Fortunately a medical expert has weighed in, and next to Doctor Fauci, I trust Sheryl the most 

That's a "medical expert" weighing in on politics lol.  

[Crazy Alex]

23 hours ago, Sheryl said:

The real pressure to reopen is not coming from the working and middle classes, though there is a concentrated effort and disinformation campaign to try to rally them and make it seem that way.

 

And these are not whom Trump et al are responding to.

 

It is the moneyed 1% -- whose funds he is dependent on for his campaign -- that are behind it. Because they can read the tea leaves on this and see that increased taxes (whether by rate or closure of loopholes) on the rich are the only way that the massive public assistance needs can be met.

 

Oh gee, sure. The pressure to re-open isn't coming from the middle class and others who are going broke and desperate to get back to work. They're fine with $1,200 checks every few months. It's those damn rich people!

[Chomper Higgot]

Go at throttle up......

 

..... Huston, we have a problem....

 

https://abcnews.go.com/US/coronavirus-updates-texas-reports-single-highest-daily-rate/story?id=70727961

[Crazy Alex]

2 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Go at throttle up......

 

..... Huston, we have a problem....

 

https://abcnews.go.com/US/coronavirus-updates-texas-reports-single-highest-daily-rate/story?id=70727961

Stay inside then.

[Crazy Alex]

On 5/15/2020 at 10:16 PM, cmarshall said:

Trump only blocked flights from China on about Jan. 31, becoming the 46th nation to do so.  He blocked flights from Europe on Mar. 11, but excluded the UK and Ireland where he owned golf courses. 

 

So, racism and self-dealing not so helpful in protecting the health of Americans after all.

Trump has four properties in Asia.

 

https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/in-maps-trump-properties-around-the-world-1.2693887

 

That shoots down both your racism and self-dealing accusations. Oops!

[Crazy Alex]

On 5/15/2020 at 8:41 PM, Langsuan Man said:

Unfortunately the vast majority of cases were brought into the US by visitors from Europe, not China

Hindsight is always 20/20.

[nattaya09]

On 5/15/2020 at 11:16 PM, cmarshall said:

Trump only blocked flights from China on about Jan. 31, becoming the 46th nation to do so.  He blocked flights from Europe on Mar. 11, but excluded the UK and Ireland where he owned golf courses. ....."

 

The UK/Ireland ban went into effect two days after the EU. I doubt golf courses had any bearing.  In retrospect, he should have placed both into effect at the same time the China ban went into effect. Given the over the top negative over-reaction from Congress over the China ban, one can only imagine how apoplectic they would have been had it been extended to the EU/UK at a time when there were no known US COVID deaths

[thaibeachlovers]

On 5/16/2020 at 9:43 PM, Nigel Garvie said:

However I think though you failed to mention that the boomers have also been the beneficiaries of peace and prosperity.  WE have not had to fight apart from those few in the US's imperial wars for control of oil etc.

Speak for yourself.

Are you British? More countries than America fought in Vietnam.

 

On 5/16/2020 at 9:43 PM, Nigel Garvie said:

Most of us westerners have not known hunger, and a vast number have not even got their hands dirty.  You can share your experience of getting up at 5am to milk cows later!

Don't know any farmers then?

Millions of them in western countries and life may be easier when men and horses did everything but it's still a hard life and not made easier by the city folk ignoring where their food comes from and scorning farmers ( in NZ even the government hates makes it difficult for farmers ).

 

On 5/16/2020 at 9:43 PM, Nigel Garvie said:

Now that's a different life, and it would do today's students no harm at all to experience it for a while.

Most of the spoiled youth of today would die if they had to live like that, IMO. Far too soft and spoiled. Many don't even realise milk comes out of cows.

 

On 5/16/2020 at 9:43 PM, Nigel Garvie said:

The people that I know in their 30s/40s/50s/ all work fairly hard.

Same here, but those I don't know seem remarkably reluctant to do so. In NZ many can't because they can't pass drug tests. NZ has to import labour to pick fruit, which is not even that hard to do because it's not within their desired occupational choices. I do know one that refused to do a menial job when he couldn't get a management job and sponged off his wife instead.

 

On 5/16/2020 at 9:43 PM, Nigel Garvie said:

Whenever we lockdown, the problem of recovery is going to damage the world for many years. I expect it will never be the same.

Agree.

Edited May 17, 2020 by thaibeachlovers

[stevenl]

8 hours ago, nattaya09 said:

The UK/Ireland ban went into effect two days after the EU. I doubt golf courses had any bearing.  In retrospect, he should have placed both into effect at the same time the China ban went into effect. Given the over the top negative over-reaction from Congress over the China ban, one can only imagine how apoplectic they would have been had it been extended to the EU/UK at a time when there were no known US COVID deaths

Which over the top reaction from Congress was that? Don't confuse it with the reaction to another bank he implemented at the same time please.

[jimmybcool]

15 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

 

 

Most of the spoiled youth of today would die if they had to live like that, IMO. Far too soft and spoiled. Many don't even realise milk comes out of cows.

 

 

What are you talking about?  Milk comes from cartons.  Cows?  What a weird idea.  ????

[Cryingdick]

3 minutes ago, jimmybcool said:

What are you talking about?  Milk comes from cartons.  Cows?  What a weird idea.  ????

 

Milk comes from soy stop being silly.

[Cryingdick]

On 5/16/2020 at 3:59 AM, Sheryl said:

The real pressure to reopen is not coming from the working and middle classes, though there is a concentrated effort and disinformation campaign to try to rally them and make it seem that way.

 

And these are not whom Trump et al are responding to.

 

It is the moneyed 1% -- whose funds he is dependent on for his campaign -- that are behind it. Because they can read the tea leaves on this and see that increased taxes (whether by rate or closure of loopholes) on the rich are the only way that the massive public assistance needs can be met.

 

 

 

 

 

Easy to sit in Thailand and collect interrupted checks and even get a $1,200 or $2,400 bonus check and say that. If your income has been impacted then my apologies but the vast majority of people that are saying the things you are have not had their incomes disrupted.

 

The middle class want to work because they are running out of money and cans of tuna now. It's that simple. 

[Cryingdick]

As far as Texas the numbers go up with more testing and they consider anybody tested with the antibody in them a new case. Those numbers can all be manipulated into mumbo jumbo. The real number for me at least is the amount of new deaths. 

[Nigel Garvie]

On 5/18/2020 at 6:13 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

Speak for yourself.

Are you British? More countries than America fought in Vietnam.

 

Don't know any farmers then?

Millions of them in western countries and life may be easier when men and horses did everything but it's still a hard life and not made easier by the city folk ignoring where their food comes from and scorning farmers ( in NZ even the government hates makes it difficult for farmers ).

 

Most of the spoiled youth of today would die if they had to live like that, IMO. Far too soft and spoiled. Many don't even realise milk comes out of cows.

 

Same here, but those I don't know seem remarkably reluctant to do so. In NZ many can't because they can't pass drug tests. NZ has to import labour to pick fruit, which is not even that hard to do because it's not within their desired occupational choices. I do know one that refused to do a menial job when he couldn't get a management job and sponged off his wife instead.

 

Agree.

I'll be brief. I am Scottish (I no longer think of myself as British). We had a wonderful PM in the 60s, Harold Wilson. The US begged him to send even some medical units. He said no - imperial wars are over. 

Yes you got the Aussies to join in, so what. Blair was of course a walkover for the US, and considered by many in Britain as a traitor.

 

I was mainly brought up in the country, of course I know farmers. On the milk issue I can confirm the view that it comes from cows. As an 8 year old we would have it squirted into our mouths direct from the teat on the udder, which was indeed part of a cow.

[muzley]

On 5/14/2020 at 1:59 PM, Eric Loh said:

Trump is the President. No? He said the same thing at the beginning and added that it will go away like a miracle. 

Cuomo, Di Blasio and Levine have the deaths of thousands and thousands of New Yorkers on their hands. They all should kicked out of office. Such incompetence!!!