Retirement or Marriage visa?

[durhamboy]

Apologies if this has been asked before but if a UK national is over 50 and married to a Thai national what would be the best visa to apply for, retirement or marriage?

 

I've done some research and it seems they both require :-

1. 90 day reporting - can this be done for both types of visa?

2. Renew by extension every year - is the cost THB 1,900?

3. Need re-entry permit if leave Thailand - cost THB 1,000? I presume this would also include a land border crossing into, say, Laos.

 

I understand that the financial requirement for a marriage visa is a bit less - 400k in bank or 40k per month income - whereas the retirement visa is 800k or 65k per month (or a combination of both for only this visa).

 

I also understand that initially a 90 day non-immigrant "O" visa is required from the Thai Embassy in London. With this visa would a 1-way air ticket from UK to Thailand be acceptable or should there be some sort of proof of onward travel or return ticket?

 

Finally, I've heard that Permanent Residence (PR) is possible in Thailand. Are the conditions onerous to be eligible for this?

 

Any advice appreciated. Many thanks.

[durhamboy]

Sorry for the 90 day reporting I meant to ask can this be done ONLINE for both types of visa?

[timendres]

90 reporting online same for both. The retirement visa is a much simpler extension to apply for, and most IO's prefer processing the retirement extension over the marriage extension. Using the retirement extension also means that you are not exposed if your marriage happens to fall apart. I have used both, and found the retirement extension to be my preference. In my opinion, the only reason for choosing the marriage extension is the lower financial requirement.

[Swiss1960]

Agree with every word from @timendres

 

For PR or even citizenship,  main requirement is working and paying Thai taxes for several years, I think 3 minimum before you can apply, and then continue working until approved. Loads of other requirements which could fill another thread - or actually did already many times, just search the forums

[ubonjoe]

14 minutes ago, durhamboy said:

1. 90 day reporting - can this be done for both types of visa?

2. Renew by extension every year - is the cost THB 1,900?

3. Need re-entry permit if leave Thailand - cost THB 1,000? I presume this would also include a land border crossing into, say, Laos.

1. Same for both of them. You can do them online by mail or in person.

2. Same for every year,

3. A single re-entry permit is 1000 baht or a multiple for 3800 baht.

As you said the big difference is the financial proof. But for retirement the 800 baht has to be in the bank for 2 months and then 3 months after you apply and then 400j bath for the rest of the year. For marriage is is only 400k baht in the bank for 2 months on the date you apply.

If you have a valid visa for entry a return or onward ticket is not required.

For permanent residency you need to be working with a work permit and paying taxes for 3 years to apply.

 

[unheard]

1 hour ago, ubonjoe said:

If you have a valid visa for entry a return or onward ticket is not required.

Unless an onward ticket being a requirement for obtaining such a visa?

[liddelljohn]

when applying for non imm O visa in UK   thry will ask for 6 months bank statements  showing minimum £5000  in UK bank  each month .

Edited May 13, 2020 by liddelljohn

[Boomer6969]

One big plus of the marriage route, is that you have to take the wife along. So they are just happy to do all the work with her and don't have to open my mouth, better than having an agent I reckon.

[durhamboy]

Many thanks for all the replies guys. At first I was thinking to go for the marriage visa but you've changed my mind. A few supplementaries if you don't mind :-

 

1. If I get a retirement visa could I switch to a marriage visa at some time in the future? The only reason I can think of to do this is if, after many years, my money runs a bit low.

 

2. With the retirement visa financials I think it is possible to do a combination of money in the bank and income i.e. 800k in bank OR 65k income OR a combination of both. So, for example, if my income was £15,000 p.a. then would that mean the bank requirement would only be 200k i.e. £15,000 x 40 (ex. rate approx) = 600k. 800k-600k = 200k. Is that broadly correct? Also, my understanding of the rules is that you cannot combine income and bank funds for the marriage visa i.e. it is 400k bank or 40k per month income but not a combination.

 

3. With the marriage visa you confirmed that you have to take your wife with you each year. That may not always be convenient. Also I hear that they do some checks on the marriage e.g. photos, house visits etc. which is probably a bit of a pain hence, as said above, the Thai IOs prefer retirement visas.

 

4. So the cost is only THB 1,900 regardless of which type. That's less than £50. The annual cost of a spouse visa in the UK is now £1,037 (including the compulsory NHS surcharge which is now more than the visa!) + extras such as BRP fees and submitting documents. Big difference!

 

5. Slightly off topic, but with regard to the UK State Pension if you live in Thailand I understand that you don't qualify for pension increases. However, if your pension is paid into a UK bank account then how would they know not to include annual increases?

[ubonjoe]

11 hours ago, liddelljohn said:

when applying for non imm O visa in UK   thry will ask for 6 months bank statements  showing minimum £5000  in UK bank  each month .

That appears to be out of date info. It is not required now.

See: http://www.thaiembassy.org/london/en/services/7742/84508-Non-Immigrant-visas.html#6

[pagallim]

The reality is that the additional requirements of a marriage extension versus a retirement are not that onerous for what is a once in a year occasion.   Another factor is that you cannot obtain employment in Thailand with a retirement extension, you can with the marriage option.

[Boomer6969]

12 hours ago, durhamboy said:

3. With the marriage visa you confirmed that you have to take your wife with you each year. That may not always be convenient. Also I hear that they do some checks on the marriage e.g. photos, house visits etc. which is probably a bit of a pain hence, as said above, the Thai IOs prefer retirement visas.

Gotta be married Mate... ????

 

But, seriously, I agree to some extent, I'd recommend the marriage route only to those involved in a solid, steady, loving relationship. Having kids possibly solid shared assets and income are also making things clearer.

 

Most IOs are quite professional, they can sense relationships "of convenience" quite easily. And this is where things may become more difficult and where the may ask you to put some oil into the clockwork. Oil of the financial kind.

Edited May 14, 2020 by Boomer6969

[durhamboy]

4 hours ago, pagallim said:

The reality is that the additional requirements of a marriage extension versus a retirement are not that onerous for what is a once in a year occasion.   Another factor is that you cannot obtain employment in Thailand with a retirement extension, you can with the marriage option.

Thanks for this. It is very unlikely that I would work in Thailand. If that did happen, then presumably I could switch to a marriage visa as per my question above. Cheers.

[recom273]

17 hours ago, Boomer6969 said:

One big plus of the marriage route, is that you have to take the wife along. So they are just happy to do all the work with her and don't have to open my mouth, better than having an agent I reckon.

I always find when my missus opens her mouth it just confuses things - even ordering McDonalds.

 

Just my 2 cents - I found it difficult to open up further bank accounts with a marriage extension. I was told by my bank (kasikorn) many times over a few years, WP and retirement visa, no problem, as many bank accounts as you please. Marriage visa can only open one account. Of course it’s a load of old bull, but with persistence and luck, you can get there.

 

With a retirement visa, you don’t have to put up with the questions about your relationship at immigration, and the home visit complete with a bedroom photo session. 
 

I did my first before I was 50, so retirement was not an option - We got through the home visit, got my bank accounts sorted. So when it further extensions aren’t too much of a worry, it’s as broad as it is long.

[sometimewoodworker]

19 hours ago, durhamboy said:

5. Slightly off topic, but with regard to the UK State Pension if you live in Thailand I understand that you don't qualify for pension increases. However, if your pension is paid into a UK bank account then how would they know not to include annual increases?

Lying to HMDWP is not something to take lightly, they also talk to other people. There is the occasional proof of life certificate that makes things a little more complex. 

[fittobethaied]

Don't forget that the Retirement Visa requires proof of health insurance of 400,000 Baht in-patient and 40,000 out-patient. I don't know the cost of that in your country of origin for your first visa, but once you settle in Thailand and return to Immigration each year for the annual extension of stay, you will have to produce proof of insurance from a Thai insurance company and the premiums are unbelievably high. See the website listed in this attachment.

[weelegs]

22 hours ago, timendres said:

90 reporting online same for both. The retirement visa is a much simpler extension to apply for, and most IO's prefer processing the retirement extension over the marriage extension. Using the retirement extension also means that you are not exposed if your marriage happens to fall apart. I have used both, and found the retirement extension to be my preference. In my opinion, the only reason for choosing the marriage extension is the lower financial requirement.

A good summary. One other major difference though: you can't be employed (hold a work permit) on a retirement extension. 

[Tuvoc]

I am facing the same decision soon and have been thinking about it for a long time. Retirement definitely easier in the sense that I'm told the immigration office approve retirement extension on the spot, but marriage extensions require further approval and home visits etc. I was going to go the retirement route but I changed my mind. I'll now go for marriage VISA and extension. There is the insurance aspect for retirees that currently doesn't apply to marriage extensions, and it just seems to me that Thailand are making things intentionally more and more difficult for retirees. They don't want them. They'd rather wealthy tourists who visit for a couple of weeks, spend loads of money, then return home. They don't want elderly people who can't pay medical bills, those that run out of money, those that die with no family to take care of things etc. Of course no guarantee an elderly person married to a Thai can pay their medical bills either, but I'm certain that the immigration system will always treat marriage extensions people more favourably than retirees. They have ties to the country. So long term I consider the marriage visa and extension the better option. And as above, you can get a work permit on a marriage extension which would put you on the arduous path to residency if you wanted to attempt that.

 

Of course the other option is the expensive Thai Elite visa if money is no object and you put a premium on reduced bureaucracy and a virtual guarantee of at least 5 years.

Edited May 14, 2020 by Tuvoc

[durhamboy]

3 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Lying to HMDWP is not something to take lightly, they also talk to other people. There is the occasional proof of life certificate that makes things a little more complex. 

Sorry but the question was "how would they know"? As far as I know, whilst someone may be obliged to tell the DWP there is no compulsory procedure in place. When you leave the UK it's probably with a 90-day visa which, in itself, doesn't really mean anything. So it's not really a case of lying to the government - I'm sure many people are unaware of this and simply don't realise that they should advise the government and they don't know they are not entitled to increases. If you go to live in The Philippines you are entitled to annual increases. Why is that? Seems a pretty grey area to me and not as black or white as telling a lie.

[CharlieH]

5 minutes ago, durhamboy said:

Sorry but the question was "how would they know"? As far as I know, whilst someone may be obliged to tell the DWP there is no compulsory procedure in place. When you leave the UK it's probably with a 90-day visa which, in itself, doesn't really mean anything. So it's not really a case of lying to the government - I'm sure many people are unaware of this and simply don't realise that they should advise the government and they don't know they are not entitled to increases. If you go to live in The Philippines you are entitled to annual increases. Why is that? Seems a pretty grey area to me and not as black or white as telling a lie.

How would they know? --  How would you explain not being on the electoral role for the address you have given and not paying Poll tax either or being credited for same if eligible. Just curious.

[durhamboy]

1 minute ago, CharlieH said:

How would you explain not being on the electoral role for the address you have given and not paying Poll tax either or being credited for same if eligible. Just curious.

Yes, good point but do you really think HMG would launch such an investigation on the basis that someone MIGHT not have told the DWP and MIGHT not be entitled to annual increases. After all, we are only talking about annual increases here. There is no question that people are entitled to receive a pension wherever they live and that pension can be paid into a UK bank account.

[BritManToo]

1 minute ago, CharlieH said:

How would they know? --  How would you explain not being on the electoral role for the address you have given and not paying Poll tax either or being credited for same if eligible. Just curious.

Council tax is only applicable to the first two people in a household, if you're a 3rd no notification is required.

You only need an address for the application form when applying for your pension.

There is no requirement to provide them with any address after that application.

The DWP has recently admitted it has no current address for nearly 40% of pension recipients.

 

If I felt really cornered I'd probably say I was homeless alcoholic with mental problems sleeping rough.

(Not a million miles from the truth)

Edited May 14, 2020 by BritManToo

[durhamboy]

Good points about the insurance guys, thanks. It would be my intention to get reasonably good private insurance for me and my wife. To me the amounts insured quoted B400k (about £10k) for in-patient and B40k (£1000) for out patient look a bit on the low side. One of the reasons we are going to Thailand is that I feel that I can no longer trust the UK NHS. Don't get me wrong, there are some wonderfully, dedicated people in the NHS and it has been a great organisation. Unfortunately covid-19 has put it really under the spotlight and, in particular, the government's utter failure (imho) to properly fund it and provide basics such as PPE.

[durhamboy]

Btw, Fittobethaied, are you saying that insurance is not a requirement for the Marriage Visa but is for the Retirement Visa?

[BritManToo]

13 minutes ago, durhamboy said:

Btw, Fittobethaied, are you saying that insurance is not a requirement for the Marriage Visa but is for the Retirement Visa?

Insurance is only a requirement for an extension of an O-A or O-X VISA for purpose of retirement.

Edited May 14, 2020 by BritManToo

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, durhamboy said:

Sorry but the question was "how would they know"? As far as I know, whilst someone may be obliged to tell the DWP

 

not may be, is.

1 hour ago, durhamboy said:

 

there is no compulsory procedure in place. When you leave the UK it's probably with a 90-day visa which, in itself, doesn't really mean anything. So it's not really a case of lying to the government
 

if you do not report your change of permanent address you are lying, so wriggle all you like you are lying.

1 hour ago, durhamboy said:

- I'm sure many people are unaware of this and simply don't realise that they should advise the government and they don't know they are not entitled to increases.

 

ignorance of the law is no excuse 

1 hour ago, durhamboy said:

 

If you go to live in The Philippines you are entitled to annual increases. Why is that?

A treaty!

1 hour ago, durhamboy said:

Seems a pretty grey area to me and not as black or white as telling a lie.

It is not grey. If you do not inform HMG as you are required to do you are lying by omission. It’s as black and white as it gets.

 

You can choose to do that but stop pretending. You may never get caught, I don’t know the penalties but HMRC is not known for its forgiving nature.
 

If all you have is your pension you are not going to find lt enough to live on and if you have enough income you will have to put in tax returns, another way to get tripped up, then there is the winter fuel payment etc. 
 

Oh, what a tangled web we weave. When first we practice to deceive!

 

 

[durhamboy]

15 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

not may be, is.

if you do not report your change of permanent address you are lying, so wriggle all you like you are lying.

 

ignorance of the law is no excuse 

A treaty!

It is not grey. If you do not inform HMG as you are required to do you are lying by omission. It’s as black and white as it gets.

 

You can choose to do that but stop pretending. You may never get caught, I don’t know the penalties but HMRC is not known for its forgiving nature.
 

If all you have is your pension you are not going to find lt enough to live on and if you have enough income you will have to put in tax returns, another way to get tripped up, then there is the winter fuel payment etc. 
 

Oh, what a tangled web we weave. When first we practice to deceive!

 

 

You see things as black or white - I don't. And if things are so black or white then please tell me under what law a person living abroad permanently is required to tell HMG. And I don't mean guidance please tell me the actual law that would be broken. Thank you.

[CharlieH]

This topic appears to have been answered in the main aspect and is now going off at a tangent into legalities regarding the UK etc so it is therefore CLOSED.

 

OP I suggest you debate the issue in the Pensions forum or other area as it is no longer "visa" related.

 

 

CLOSED