Sweden - is the rest of the world dumb, blind or worse ?

[Bender Rodriguez]

not a word in the media than scare mongering

 

why not eat healthy, exercise, get some sun on your skin, you know the one thing that is lacking EVERY WINTER overthere and why not get some vit A, C, D, E

[Bender Rodriguez]

1 hour ago, DeadBite said:

Viruses cannot be grown in culture, only bacteria and fungi can.
And this is one of the main reasons that science has never been able to isolate the "virus"

the human body has about 200+ virus-es & trillions of bacteria, keeping you alive, feeding you (making energy out of food)

 

but humanity is out to kill them all

[GalaxyMan]

21 minutes ago, Bender Rodriguez said:

the human body has about 200+ virus-es & trillions of bacteria, keeping you alive, feeding you (making energy out of food)

Yes, we are a sybiotic multi-organism.

[marqus12]

31 minutes ago, Bender Rodriguez said:

but humanity is out to kill them all

Don't worry about other viruses, bacteria, cancer etc.
Total war is declared only covid.

[yuyiinthesky]

13 hours ago, farang51 said:

...Anyway, other scientists arrive at a quite different number. In this PDF they argue that you need to reach 74 per cent. And please note, that reaching the threshold do not mean that the virus will magically stop spreading. It will be more difficult for the virus to find new hosts, but it will still spread....

How about being open to new research, even if it forces you to adjust old beliefs?

 

The research I posted and presented in the other thread is very new, and makes hope. Also it is done by established scientists and you cannot put Elsevier and „Cell“ in a right wing or left wing or conspiracy corner. Yet, instead of even considering that it could be good news, you try to dismiss it immediately, citing other scientists which calculated values without knowing this new research, thus without having considered its influence on the calculations.

 

To do the math for you, 40-60% base immunity plus 10-20 % infection rate = 50-80% immunity. Very well in the area where herd immunity can kick in. (And, as I posted on TVF in other threads weeks ago, I think it did already in Thailand and Cambodia months ago.)
 

As said in the other thread, established virologists and scientist such as Professor Streeck and Professor Drosten are seeing and talking about such a base immunity for some time now, as possible or even likely explanation for the fact that many, too many, even in the same household as infected ones, simply don’t get infected.

 

I have absolutely no problem if the level of immunity is questioned, it might not be 100%, but it will certainly be clearly more than 0%.

 

However to ignore new research, and to keep repeating old knowledge, is not really scientific.

 

Fortunately the scientists of the world in general behave not like you, they will keep on researching and adjusting to new information coming from new research, especially if they are not drawn into bickering and politics.

[farang51]

39 minutes ago, yuyiinthesky said:

How about being open to new research, even if it forces you to adjust old beliefs?

 

The research I posted and presented in the other thread is very new, and makes hope. Also it is done by established scientists and you cannot put Elsevier and „Cell“ in a right wing or left wing or conspiracy corner. Yet, instead of even considering that it could be good news, you try to dismiss it immediately, citing other scientists which calculated values without knowing this new research, thus without having considered its influence on the calculations.

 

To do the math for you, 40-60% base immunity plus 10-20 % infection rate = 50-80% immunity. Very well in the area where herd immunity can kick in. (And, as I posted on TVF in other threads weeks ago, I think it did already in Thailand and Cambodia months ago.)
 

As said in the other thread, established virologists and scientist such as Professor Streeck and Professor Drosten are seeing and talking about such a base immunity for some time now, as possible or even likely explanation for the fact that many, too many, even in the same household as infected ones, simply don’t get infected.

 

I have absolutely no problem if the level of immunity is questioned, it might not be 100%, but it will certainly be clearly more than 0%.

 

However to ignore new research, and to keep repeating old knowledge, is not really scientific.

 

Fortunately the scientists of the world in general behave not like you, they will keep on researching and adjusting to new information coming from new research, especially if they are not drawn into bickering and politics.

I was referring to new research - newer than the one you referred. I did not dismiss the one you referred to, only pointed out, that other scientists arrive at some quite different numbers. And I could add that most scientists seem to agree on higher numbers than the ones you prefer.

 

Beliefs and hope have no place in research. And that you think that Thailand and Cambodia have reached herd immunity is on the same level as those believing that G5 is causing COVID; it has no ground in reality. Do you really think that they closed down Thailand just for the fun of it?

 

Still, even if your scientists are right about the level to reach herd immunity, you are looking at additional deaths of near ten-fold what we have seen already in the hardest-hit countries. Do you think that is acceptable?

[yuyiinthesky]

40 minutes ago, farang51 said:

I was referring to new research - newer than the one you referred. I did not dismiss the one you referred to, only pointed out, that other scientists arrive at some quite different numbers. And I could add that most scientists seem to agree on higher numbers than the ones you prefer.

It is highly unlikely that any study appearing until now had the time to include the new information from any other study appearing just now.

 

Then, the new study I quoted is not in conflict at all with the study you quoted. It does not say that herd immunity needs this or that level. It simply says that there seem to be already 40-60% having a certain level of base immunity without having been exposed to SARS-CoV-2. Thus they can be added to the ones having had SARS-CoV-2 already.

 

So there is no conflict. Whatever % is required for herd immunity does not change. Just the good news that we do not need all the % for herd immunity to come from a SARS-CoV-2 infection, but that we seem to get 40-60% for free from this kind of base immunity.

 

49 minutes ago, farang51 said:

Beliefs and hope have no place in research. And that you think that Thailand and Cambodia have reached herd immunity is on the same level as those believing that G5 is causing COVID; it has no ground in reality. Do you really think that they closed down Thailand just for the fun of it?

Well, if you have a better explanation for the fact that the numbers are so low in Thailand or Cambodia and around, please contribute. I made a thread for that long ago, please discuss there:

 

But please keep 5G out of it.

 

1 hour ago, farang51 said:

Still, even if your scientists are right about the level to reach herd immunity, you are looking at additional deaths of near ten-fold what we have seen already in the hardest-hit countries. Do you think that is acceptable?

I do not see how you come to the conclusion that reaching herd immunity earlier than previously expected would cause additional deaths. If anything it means that there will be less deaths than previously expected.

[farang51]

7 minutes ago, yuyiinthesky said:

Well, if you have a better explanation for the fact that the numbers are so low in Thailand or Cambodia and around, please contribute. I made a thread for that long ago, please discuss there:

 

I do not see how you come to the conclusion that reaching herd immunity earlier than previously expected would cause additional deaths. If anything it means that there will be less deaths than previously expected.
 

It seems that the virus has a harder time spreading at high temperatures and high humidity; however, we do not yet know that for sure. But the uncertainty is no reason to jump to conclusions with no ground in reality. Again, do you really believe that Thailand closed down just for the fun of it? Did Thailand reach herd immunity everywhere except boxing stadiums?

 

Fewer deaths than previous expected - but a lot more than we have seen until now. If we have 35.000 deaths in the UK with some 5 per cent infected, then you will have some 175.000 additional deaths before reaching herd immunity. That is if there really is a base immunity which is far from certain; actually, that is rather unlikely. Most scientists are not even sure you get immunity from having had COVID, and you are talking about immunity in people that have not even been infected.

 

Hope is nice to have, but when making plans for shutdowns and reopenings, we better plan from knowledge.

[thaibeachlovers]

5 hours ago, farang51 said:

Still, even if your scientists are right about the level to reach herd immunity, you are looking at additional deaths of near ten-fold what we have seen already in the hardest-hit countries. Do you think that is acceptable?

Given that a vaccine is probably 18 months away, and it's not guaranteed that there will be one, IMO what will happen is what should, IMO have been done from the start- the at risk will be isolated till herd immunity is reached and everyone else will go back to normal with some imposed restrictions.

It's just not possible to keep everyone in lockdown any longer. If they try it won't end happily.

[DeadBite]

ZERO scientific evidence that the boxing stadium helped "spread the virus"

[farang51]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Given that a vaccine is probably 18 months away, and it's not guaranteed that there will be one, IMO what will happen is what should, IMO have been done from the start- the at risk will be isolated till herd immunity is reached and everyone else will go back to normal with some imposed restrictions.

It's just not possible to keep everyone in lockdown any longer. If they try it won't end happily.

Herd immunity takes time too, maybe even longer than 18 months, especially if we try to avoid overcrowded hospitals. The people at risk are not safe even when we do reach herd immunity; herd immunity does not magically make the virus disappear. It will be more difficult for it to spread, but that does not mean that grandma is safe.

 

You do not need to keep everything locked down until a vaccine is available. But you do need the population to keep distance to each other and avoid big gatherings, like football matches. Germany, Denmark and other countries are starting to open up while keeping an eye open for new infections, and if the numbers go up too much (above R1), then they will reinstate some of the restrictions.

Edited May 20, 2020 by farang51

[yuyiinthesky]

5 hours ago, farang51 said:

That is if there really is a base immunity which is far from certain; actually, that is rather unlikely. Most scientists are not even sure you get immunity from having had COVID, and you are talking about immunity in people that have not even been infected.

 

Please provide some sources of scientists (not journalists) saying that there will be no immunity, or that it is rather unlikely that there is. I haven't found one. And I searched a lot. Even Dr Fauci expects immunity, as seen again in his discussions with Senator Rand Paul very recently. May be you are better with Google than I am. If so, please share the sources.

And it is not me who made the new study about the 40-60% and discovered it and talks about it, it is done, written and published by scientists, as you could see if you would have looked at the study (the PDF link at Cell from Elsevier).

Why do you want so much that there is no immunity?

 

[yuyiinthesky]

5 hours ago, farang51 said:

It seems that the virus has a harder time spreading at high temperatures and high humidity; however, we do not yet know that for sure. But the uncertainty is no reason to jump to conclusions with no ground in reality.

So you have no better explanation, just an "it seems ..." "however, we do not yet know ...".

[vermin on arrival]

interesting article from the economist. Originally projected ifr at .1 but in editor's note of April 26 revises it to .4 as in the study by the German Virologist Streeck. You need to register to read it: https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2020/04/11/why-a-study-showing-that-covid-19-is-everywhere-is-good-news

[farang51]

1 hour ago, yuyiinthesky said:

 

Please provide some sources of scientists (not journalists) saying that there will be no immunity, or that it is rather unlikely that there is. I haven't found one. And I searched a lot. Even Dr Fauci expects immunity, as seen again in his discussions with Senator Rand Paul very recently. May be you are better with Google than I am. If so, please share the sources.

And it is not me who made the new study about the 40-60% and discovered it and talks about it, it is done, written and published by scientists, as you could see if you would have looked at the study (the PDF link at Cell from Elsevier).

Why do you want so much that there is no immunity?

 

Maybe you should take your time to read what I  wrote rather than what you think I  wrote. I wrote about "base immunity" - the thing you mentioned.

 

Did you read the pre-published paper or just a news article about it? The paper is about T cells capable of recognizing the virus, they say in the paper that they do not know whether this means immunity. Thus, it is rather speculative (they actually use that word in the paper) to think that there is any base immunity, and if there is, it may simply mean that the COVID will be less severe.

 

Please also note that the paper is based on very few subjects (blood from 20 persons). Some German scientist have made a similar research in a larger sample (68 persons), they found 38 percent not-infected with T cells capable of recognizing the virus. Again, that does not mean they are immune.

[chessman]

1 hour ago, vermin on arrival said:

interesting article from the economist. Originally projected ifr at .1 but in editor's note of April 26 revises it to .4 as in the study by the German Virologist Streeck. You need to register to read it:

All of this is encouraging. Would be interesting if this kind of research was done in countries that were harder hit. Germany has maintained a relatively low mortality rate, would the results be similar in Spain or Italy?

[farang51]

1 hour ago, yuyiinthesky said:

So you have no better explanation, just an "it seems ..." "however, we do not yet know ...".

Correct, that was my explanation, not a scientific explanation; thus, the addition of "however, we do not yet know that". Mind you, there are research saying that the virus dies faster when it is hot and humid; however only from indoor testing in laboratories, as far as I know.

[Sujo]

Its amazing the so called experts on here know more than the experts in their field that govts are relying on.

 

I suggest some of you should be passing on your immense knowledge to the whitehouse.

[Odysseus123]

7 minutes ago, Sujo said:

I suggest some of you should be passing on your immense knowledge to the whitehouse.

Oh no!

Please..not that...????

[yuyiinthesky]

8 minutes ago, Sujo said:

Its amazing the so called experts on here know more than the experts in their field that govts are relying on.

 

I suggest some of you should be passing on your immense knowledge to the whitehouse.

Yes, daily conference calls, but you might have noticed, the guy there has a problem listening, or if he seems listening, then understanding what he heard. ????

[marqus12]

7 hours ago, Sujo said:

Its amazing the so called experts on here know more than the experts in their field that govts are relying on.

 

I suggest some of you should be passing on your immense knowledge to the whitehouse.

Where is some government expert who alerted 20 years ago that moving

all production to China is a threat ???

 

Because ordinary people talked about it.

 

Experts' opinion depends on where they get their money from...

 

 

 

 

Edited May 21, 2020 by marqus12

[Saddic]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/sweden-becomes-country-highest-coronavirus-133234368.html

 

Sweden becomes country with highest coronavirus death rate per capita

 

Sweden has now overtaken the UK, Italy and Belgium to have the highest coronavirus per capita death rate in the world, throwing its decision to avoid a strict lockdown into further doubt.

According to figures collated by the Our World in Data website, Sweden had 6.08 deaths per million inhabitants per day on a rolling seven-day average between May 13 and May 20.

This is the highest in the world, above the UK, Belgium and the US, which have 5.57, 4.28 and 4.11 respectively.

However, Sweden has only had the highest death rate over the past week, with Belgium, Spain, Italy, the UK and France, still ahead over the entire course of the pandemic.

[GalaxyMan]

On 5/20/2020 at 7:12 AM, GalaxyMan said:

"Scientists from the Korean Centers for Disease Control and Prevention studied 285 Covid-19 survivors who had tested positive for the coronavirus after their illness had apparently resolved, as indicated by a previous negative test result. The so-called re-positive patients weren’t found to have spread any lingering infection, and virus samples collected from them couldn’t be grown in culture, indicating the patients were shedding non-infectious or dead virus particles."

Here's a fascinating explanation of how this virus actually works and the difficulties it presents.

 

https://theconversation.com/blocking-the-deadly-cytokine-storm-is-a-vital-weapon-for-treating-covid-19-137690

[faraday]

21 hours ago, DeadBite said:

Viruses cannot be grown in culture, only bacteria and fungi can.
And this is one of the main reasons that science has never been able to isolate the "virus"

You really do need to check before posting.

 

Viruses can be cultured.

 

https://microbiologyinfo.com/techniques-of-virus-cultivation/

[pineapple01]

At least Sweden is an open book. Therefore other Nations can just slap restrictions on them if they see fit.

[DeadBite]

2 hours ago, faraday said:

You really do need to check before posting.

 

Viruses can be cultured.

 

https://microbiologyinfo.com/techniques-of-virus-cultivation/

Yes, exosomes and other RNA present in our bodies (from bacteria, fungus, toxic reactions) can be cultured (or rather grown on a tissue, not exactly cultured)
In other words they culture the disease, not the theoretical virus.

Please paste the paragraphs you think most clearly describe that what grows in that culture is a virus, and not an exosome or some free roaming RNA that was present in the fluid they shot the animal.


 

Edited May 21, 2020 by DeadBite

[DeadBite]

8 minutes ago, DeadBite said:

 

@faraday the article even begins with a big lie:

1. To isolate and identify viruses in clinical samples

Aren't they shy?

Edited May 21, 2020 by DeadBite

[chessman]

Sweden has about double the population but more than 16 times the number of deaths compared to Norway. This number is increasing every week.
 

the Yearly GDP predictions from their central banks are as follows:

 

Sweden expecting a 6.5% drop.

Norway expecting a 7.4% drop.

 

https://www.thelocal.se/20200518/swedens-lack-of-lockdown-wont-be-enough-to-save-the-economy-experts-warn

 

So a modest but hardly earth-shattering benefit for Sweden.

 

2 questions though.

1- Happiness and individual freedom. Would the lack of legal restrictions placed upon Swedish people be resulting in more happiness (or less unhappiness). Not sure how you could quantify this.

2- The future. If there are further waves could Sweden be less affected than other countries? There are lots of questions about the strength of immunity and how long it lasts but it is possible. It seems unlikely that Norway will ever approach the mortality rate of Sweden (They were able to minimise their numbers of deaths when they were most vulnerable, now every country will have better tools to fight the virus) but they might be caught in a cycle of shutdowns that negatively affect their economy over a longer period.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[scubascuba3]

1 minute ago, chessman said:

Sweden has about double the population but more than 16 times the number of deaths compared to Norway. This number is increasing every week.
 

the Yearly GDP predictions from their central banks are as follows:

 

Sweden expecting a 6.5% drop.

Norway expecting a 7.4% drop.

 

https://www.thelocal.se/20200518/swedens-lack-of-lockdown-wont-be-enough-to-save-the-economy-experts-warn

 

So a modest but hardly earth-shattering benefit for Sweden.

 

2 questions though.

1- Happiness and individual freedom. Would the lack of legal restrictions placed upon Swedish people be resulting in more happiness (or less unhappiness). Not sure how you could quantify this.

2- The future. If there are further waves could Sweden be less affected than other countries? There are lots of questions about the strength of immunity and how long it lasts but it is possible. It seems unlikely that Norway will ever approach the mortality rate of Sweden (They were able to minimise their numbers of deaths when they were most vulnerable, now every country will have better tools to fight the virus) but they might be caught in a cycle of shutdowns that negatively affect their economy over a longer period.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also how much has it cost Norway vs Sweden, benefits, business grants and loans etc. The GDP changes seem odd, let's see what the actual numbers are

[DeadBite]

7 hours ago, faraday said:

You really do need to check before posting.

 

Viruses can be cultured.

 

https://microbiologyinfo.com/techniques-of-virus-cultivation/

faraday, I admit my post before was a bit of a salad, but there was a point I was trying to make, so let me try again.

 

You either filter or use or use a petri dish culture to isolate biological material (PCR technique isolates genetic material, but the question is what genetic material)

 

Why should Virology be allowed to use a tissue sample, and the genetic material found in that tissue, in order to state that it has isolated a virus?

If it can't be filtered, and it can't grow on a petri dish because "the virus is not alive", then we have to discard Virology instead of finding "viruses" in any random strand of RNA or particle we encounter in our bodies.

Disease is serious enough, wrong diagnosis and treatment is deadly.

Edited May 21, 2020 by DeadBite