Sweden - is the rest of the world dumb, blind or worse ?

[partington]

3 hours ago, DeadBite said:

faraday, I admit my post before was a bit of a salad, but there was a point I was trying to make, so let me try again.

 

You either filter or use or use a petri dish culture to isolate biological material (PCR technique isolates genetic material, but the question is what genetic material)

 

Why should Virology be allowed to use a tissue sample, and the genetic material found in that tissue, in order to state that it has isolated a virus?

If it can't be filtered, and it can't grow on a petri dish because "the virus is not alive", then we have to discard Virology instead of finding "viruses" in any random strand of RNA or particle we encounter in our bodies.

Disease is serious enough, wrong diagnosis and treatment is deadly.

You are talking through your hat, and literally jumbling up words and ideas in a nonsensical mess that is completely incorrect.

 

Firstly a virus can be considered not to be alive because it needs the aid of living cell to reproduce-it can do nothing on its own.

 

So the way you grow viruses on a tissue culture dish is firstly, to cover that dish with a continuous layer of living cells, easily grown in a lab. You then add a solution of viruses to that cell culture. The viruses attach to individual cells and inject their RNA. This RNA takes over the cells and makes them make thousands of copies of the virus. The cells burst releasing the new viruses. They infect surrounding cells. You can often see this happening, because a clear ring of burst cells appears in the cloudy layer of intact cells where one virus has infected , burst the cell and infected all the cells around it. Eventually after all the cells burst, the liquid covering them has billions more viruses in it than you put in, because they have reproduced. You can collect and study these.

 

Now, part of a virus is RNA, it is inside the virus body. This is what you can detect by PCR. It is not random, it is very specific, and all PCR tests contain samples which are known not to have SARS-CoV- 2 in them (ideally containing a closely related but different virus) to ensure that any positives are really positive SARS-CoV- 2 RNA - the test is discarded if positives are picked up in the negative sample.

 

Now any SARS-CoV- 2 RNA found in sample from a human patient by PCR MUST have come from a SARS-CoV- 2 virus. However it could come from an 1. intact virus capable of infecting other people and reproducing, or it could come from 2. disintegrated virus partially destroyed by the body's immune system and not capable of infection if added to other cells or 3.  A human cell which is in mid-infection and is full of virus components including RNA which haven't been assembled. If you just add virus  RNA to cells it won't infect because infectious ability needs a whole intact virus, not just the RNA part.

 

So it is not a puzzle or unclear: PCR detects part of the virus - RNA- very specifically and accurately. That can come from an intact virus that is still contagious, or from viruses that are broken up and not functional-for example from a human who has beaten the infection but not yet cleared all the bits of broken virus from their body.

Edited May 21, 2020 by partington

[DeadBite]

1 hour ago, partington said:

You are talking through your hat, and literally jumbling up words and ideas in a nonsensical mess that is completely incorrect.

 

Firstly a virus can be considered not to be alive because it needs the aid of living cell to reproduce-it can do nothing on its own.

 

So the way you grow viruses on a tissue culture dish is firstly, to cover that dish with a continuous layer of living cells, easily grown in a lab. You then add a solution of viruses to that cell culture. The viruses attach to individual cells and inject their RNA. This RNA takes over the cells and makes them make thousands of copies of the virus. The cells burst releasing the new viruses. They infect surrounding cells. You can often see this happening, because a clear ring of burst cells appears in the cloudy layer of intact cells where one virus has infected , burst the cell and infected all the cells around it. Eventually after all the cells burst, the liquid covering them has billions more viruses in it than you put in, because they have reproduced. You can collect and study these.

 

Now, part of a virus is RNA, it is inside the virus body. This is what you can detect by PCR. It is not random, it is very specific, and all PCR tests contain samples which are known not to have SARS-CoV- 2 in them (ideally containing a closely related but different virus) to ensure that any positives are really positive SARS-CoV- 2 RNA - the test is discarded if positives are picked up in the negative sample.

 

Now any SARS-CoV- 2 RNA found in sample from a human patient by PCR MUST have come from a SARS-CoV- 2 virus. However it could come from an 1. intact virus capable of infecting other people and reproducing, or it could come from 2. disintegrated virus partially destroyed by the body's immune system and not capable of infection if added to other cells or 3.  A human cell which is in mid-infection and is full of virus components including RNA which haven't been assembled. If you just add virus  RNA to cells it won't infect because infectious ability needs a whole intact virus, not just the RNA part.

 

So it is not a puzzle or unclear: PCR detects part of the virus - RNA- very specifically and accurately. That can come from an intact virus that is still contagious, or from viruses that are broken up and not functional-for example from a human who has beaten the infection but not yet cleared all the bits of broken virus from their body.

How do you know you have a solution of virus if you have not isolated the virus yet?
You have a solution with a disease, with many particles that you can baptize as virus inside.

By using PCR you amplify a specific genetic sequence that you found in a body,  not in a "virus" as you have not isolated it in order to sequence it.

 

PCR was invented to replicate DNA, not to be used to detect "virus".
Its inventor, who won a Nobel prize for this invention, was clearly against using PCR to detect "virus".

 

You repeat many times the word "intact virus".

PCR does not detect the genetic material of any intact virus.
No advanced microscope has ever seen any intact virus, and it has not be filtered in any way yet.

It is a wrong concept from the 18th century that makes more harm than good.

 

From what we know disease is caused from bacteria, fungi, toxic reactions and even psychological reasons, not from virus.

 

[partington]

40 minutes ago, DeadBite said:

How do you know you have a solution of virus if you have not isolated the virus yet?
You have a solution with a disease, with many particles that you can baptize as virus inside.

By using PCR you amplify a specific genetic sequence that you found in a body,  not in a "virus" as you have not isolated it in order to sequence it.

 

PCR was invented to replicate DNA, not to be used to detect "virus".
Its inventor, who won a Nobel prize for this invention, was clearly against using PCR to detect "virus".

 

You repeat many times the word "intact virus".

PCR does not detect the genetic material of any intact virus.
No advanced microscope has ever seen any intact virus, and it has not be filtered in any way yet.

It is a wrong concept from the 18th century that makes more harm than good.

 

From what we know disease is caused from bacteria, fungi, toxic reactions and even psychological reasons, not from virus.

 

All your "facts" are absolutely wrong and must derive from some fake news site for the gullible.

 

Intact viruses are cultured from samples from infected people all the time and are the basis of many routine hospital tests.  They were first seen intact using electron microscopes in 1939. 

 

   "Other historical electron microscopic observations have led to the discovery of new viruses. In 1948, differences between the virus that causes smallpox and the virus that causes chicken pox were demonstrated by EM (62, 92). The first image of poliovirus was taken in 1952 (74), and virus-host relationships began to be studied in the mid-1950s'  

 

  Below is a picture of  monkey immunodeficiency viruses inside a cell with its coating and spikes visible - both quote and picture taken from Goldsmith CS, Miller SE. Modern uses of electron microscopy for detection of viruses. Clin Microbiol Rev. 2009;22(4):552‐563. doi:10.1128/CMR.00027-09

 

It doesn't matter what PCR was invented for: it is now a tool with countless uses in molecular biology. For example every DNA fingerprinting test in criminal cases uses PCR, even though that is not what it was invented "for".

 

Why you are obsessed with filtering must also derive from some nonsense fake news site, I'm guessing.  Filters to remove viruses, for example from tissue culture fluid or from drug preparations are available from any biosciences supplier.  A trade ad for one is also shown below.

 

[chessman]

Interesting results from Sweden. Just 7.3% of people at Stockholm had antibodies at end of April, less than what was expected.

 

we all know that there are many more Covid cases than what the official count shows but quite a few recent antibody tests have shown that the virus is not quite as widespread as some claim.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/21/just-7-per-cent-of-stockholm-had-covid-19-antibodies-by-end-of-april-study-sweden-coronavirus

[scubascuba3]

20 hours ago, Saddic said:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/sweden-becomes-country-highest-coronavirus-133234368.html

 

Sweden becomes country with highest coronavirus death rate per capita

 

Sweden has now overtaken the UK, Italy and Belgium to have the highest coronavirus per capita death rate in the world, throwing its decision to avoid a strict lockdown into further doubt.

According to figures collated by the Our World in Data website, Sweden had 6.08 deaths per million inhabitants per day on a rolling seven-day average between May 13 and May 20.

This is the highest in the world, above the UK, Belgium and the US, which have 5.57, 4.28 and 4.11 respectively.

However, Sweden has only had the highest death rate over the past week, with Belgium, Spain, Italy, the UK and France, still ahead over the entire course of the pandemic.

Total fake news this post, check your figures before posting. Sweden is 6th (384 deaths per million)  ignoring San Marino and Andorra. Check worldmeters

[farang51]

3 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

Total fake news this post, check your figures before posting. Sweden is 6th (384 deaths per million)  ignoring San Marino and Andorra. Check worldmeters

 

It said "death rate" not "deaths", and that was correct at that time. Now, after a drop in Sweden, the UK has overtaken them.

[DeadBite]

13 hours ago, partington said:

All your "facts" are absolutely wrong and must derive from some fake news site for the gullible.

 

Intact viruses are cultured from samples from infected people all the time and are the basis of many routine hospital tests.  They were first seen intact using electron microscopes in 1939. 

 

   "Other historical electron microscopic observations have led to the discovery of new viruses. In 1948, differences between the virus that causes smallpox and the virus that causes chicken pox were demonstrated by EM (62, 92). The first image of poliovirus was taken in 1952 (74), and virus-host relationships began to be studied in the mid-1950s'  

 

  Below is a picture of  monkey immunodeficiency viruses inside a cell with its coating and spikes visible - both quote and picture taken from Goldsmith CS, Miller SE. Modern uses of electron microscopy for detection of viruses. Clin Microbiol Rev. 2009;22(4):552‐563. doi:10.1128/CMR.00027-09

 

It doesn't matter what PCR was invented for: it is now a tool with countless uses in molecular biology. For example every DNA fingerprinting test in criminal cases uses PCR, even though that is not what it was invented "for".

 

Why you are obsessed with filtering must also derive from some nonsense fake news site, I'm guessing.  Filters to remove viruses, for example from tissue culture fluid or from drug preparations are available from any biosciences supplier.  A trade ad for one is also shown below.

 

Are you kidding me? By filtering I mean isolating the virus. The machine you show me does nothing like that.
You are the gullible one for believing we have an electron microscope image of a virus!!! Many particles in our bodies have coating and spikes, no need to baptize them virus.

Edited May 22, 2020 by DeadBite

[transam]

So Sweden's ''blazee" route backfired, now no.1 for C19 deaths per capita....

[yuyiinthesky]

2 hours ago, DeadBite said:

Are you kidding me? By filtering I mean isolating the virus. The machine you show me does nothing like that.
You are the gullible one for believing we have an electron microscope image of a virus!!! Many particles in our bodies have coating and spikes, no need to baptize them virus.

Go easy on him, like so many others here, he tries his best.
It simply has to be all true, or why all that curfew and lockdown and emergency. Thinking about that too much might lead to confusion, desperation, so better just parrot and copy paste what google offers and enjoy some peace of mind. 

[farang51]

1 hour ago, transam said:

So Sweden's ''blazee" route backfired, now no.1 for C19 deaths per capita....

No, not quite yet; they were number 1 for daily death rate for about a week then they had a dip yesterday, so now the UK is number 1 in death rate. Those two countries are the only ones above five daily deaths per million at the moment.

[Sheryl]

Posts with links to yoytube videos from non authoritative source have been removed

[transam]

35 minutes ago, farang51 said:

No, not quite yet; they were number 1 for daily death rate for about a week then they had a dip yesterday, so now the UK is number 1 in death rate. Those two countries are the only ones above five daily deaths per million at the moment.

Then you will agree that whatever different countries do it works out much the same, UNLESS, a country is much warmer......Like LOS, Laos, Burma, Cambodia and Vietnam...

[yuyiinthesky]

32 minutes ago, transam said:

Then you will agree that whatever different countries do it works out much the same, UNLESS, a country is much warmer......Like LOS, Laos, Burma, Cambodia and Vietnam...

Warmer usually means that there is more happening outdoor, in fresh air, and less in badly ventilated closed areas. This seems to add to the "warmer" effect on the virus, or to be the main mechanism behind it (in my humble opionion).

(Sorry, I don't link to a video with a qualified doctor interview talking about it, as it probably only causes that the post will be deleted.)

Edited May 22, 2020 by yuyiinthesky

[farang51]

It certainly does seem that warm weather and high humidity means less spreading of the virus. However, it does matter what the countries do. If you compare Sweden with the other Scandinavian countries the difference in deaths is notable. However, if you compare the economic impact, Sweden does not seem to fare much better despite fewer restrictions.

[partington]

5 hours ago, DeadBite said:

Are you kidding me? By filtering I mean isolating the virus. The machine you show me does nothing like that.
You are the gullible one for believing we have an electron microscope image of a virus!!! Many particles in our bodies have coating and spikes, no need to baptize them virus.

Well I wondered what your obsession with "filtering" was! Filtering is the wrong word for what you were trying to say, and as you now use the right word "isolating", I'm still puzzled, even though English may be your second language, why you kept saying "filtering" which didn't really make sense.

 

I can tell from the nature of your response that you have pre-decided to follow conspiracy/ fake news rather than objectively assess the facts, so I'm not trying to convince you in the following- you are immunised against facts!  

 

For anyone who is interested briefly here is how the SARs Cov-2 virus was isolated and identified in China.

 

Liquid samples were taken from nasal passages/lungs of patients suffering from the new pneumonia-like disease.  These were placed on cultures of airway epithelial cells in dishes and the dishes were monitored for signs of cell death or toxicity, signalling infection and replication by a disease causing organism. Cells from dishes showing these signs were collected.

 

Some were examined under electron microscopy and showed that spiked coronavirus particles were present.  Others were used in next generation sequencing and a complete genome sequence was obtained. When compared with the known database this sequence was found to be a new coronavirus, clearly related to but different from, other known coronaviruses.

 

 

Cell media from cultured cells infected with this virus could be shown to reproducibly infect and kill cells in other dishes by serial passaging, and the same genomic sequence and viral particles were also shown to be always present in these cells but never in uninfected healthy cells grown in identical dishes at the same time.

[mikebike]

2 hours ago, transam said:

Then you will agree that whatever different countries do it works out much the same, UNLESS, a country is much warmer......Like LOS, Laos, Burma, Cambodia and Vietnam...

And Brazil, right?

[transam]

1 minute ago, mikebike said:

And Brazil, right?

Think they just dismissed everything and kept doing what they always do.....

[chessman]

5 hours ago, DeadBite said:

The death rate, year to year, seems to be the same if not less in all countries.
We have been fed selective statistics, and Hollywood style coffin shots, so that fear would keep us inside when the lock-down started.

Perhaps you are the one being fed selective statistics?
 

Look here for example:

https://www.ft.com/content/40fc8904-febf-4a66-8d1c-ea3e48bbc034
 

More than 50,000 excess deaths in the UK compared with an average year. Makes a very strong case that Covid deaths are being underestimated. You can find very similar trends from Italy to Indonesia.

Edited May 22, 2020 by chessman

[moe666]

On 5/16/2020 at 10:25 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

is the rest of the world dumb, blind or worse ?

 

Yes.

I guess all that has changed with over 32,000 cases and the creator of this scheme was shocked at the death toll. The latest is the herd isn't working only 7 percent of population is infected. I guess Sweden is dumber than the rest.

[chessman]

6 minutes ago, moe666 said:

The latest is the herd isn't working only 7 percent of population is infected.

It’s not even that. It’s 7% in the worst affected area of Sweden (Stockholm). In the whole of the country it’s lower.

[yuyiinthesky]

13 minutes ago, moe666 said:

The latest is the herd isn't working only 7 percent of population is infected.

Once again, a misleading claim. 

[moe666]

It is a fact the countries who locked down and tested early have fewer cases than the nimrods in Sweden and fewer deaths. Also it helps not to have a president or PM who has a penchant for nationalist and right wing leaning the top countries for case load were the US, UK, russia and Brazil, I believe the UK has been knocked out of 2nd place. The leaders of these 4 countries ignored and down played the virus allowing it to spread

[yuyiinthesky]

40 minutes ago, partington said:

For anyone who is interested briefly here is how the SARs Cov-2 virus was isolated and identified in China.

 

Liquid samples were taken from nasal passages/lungs of patients suffering from the new pneumonia-like disease.  These were placed on cultures of airway epithelial cells in dishes and the dishes were monitored for signs of cell death or toxicity, signalling infection and replication by a disease causing organism. Cells from dishes showing these signs were collected.

 

Some were examined under electron microscopy and showed that spiked coronavirus particles were present.  Others were used in next generation sequencing and a complete genome sequence was obtained. When compared with the known database this sequence was found to be a new coronavirus, clearly related to but different from, other known coronaviruses.

 

 

Cell media from cultured cells infected with this virus could be shown to reproducibly infect and kill cells in other dishes by serial passaging, and the same genomic sequence and viral particles were also shown to be always present in these cells but never in uninfected healthy cells grown in identical dishes at the same time.

Sorry, but there is nothing about the virus isolation there. "Liquid samples were taken from nasal passages/lungs of patients", yes, but were they "cleaned" / purified, the virus isolated, or the whole soup used as taken, as is?

I'm not claiming anything, but I'm genuinely interested in that part too, the isolated virus, and there generally seems to be not much about the isolation available. 

Also the nice and colorful pictures shown earlier had been pictures of "something" in a kind of "cell soup", not an isolated virus. Can that not be done better?
 

[yuyiinthesky]

10 minutes ago, moe666 said:

It is a fact the countries who locked down and tested early have fewer cases than the nimrods in Sweden and fewer deaths.

Aren't there quite a few countries which had no lockdown and still low to very low numbers? Thus the part about the lockdown in your statement is at least debatable, if not simply wrong.

[partington]

45 minutes ago, yuyiinthesky said:

Sorry, but there is nothing about the virus isolation there. "Liquid samples were taken from nasal passages/lungs of patients", yes, but were they "cleaned" / purified, the virus isolated, or the whole soup used as taken, as is?

I'm not claiming anything, but I'm genuinely interested in that part too, the isolated virus, and there generally seems to be not much about the isolation available. 

Also the nice and colorful pictures shown earlier had been pictures of "something" in a kind of "cell soup", not an isolated virus. Can that not be done better?
 

The isolation comes after the infection of test cells with human samples not before. You can't isolate before because you don't know what you are looking for!

 

Very simply: the supernatant or fluid of a dish which has been infected with SARS CoV-2 and left until all the cells are showing  death or toxic effects contains the viruses newly produced by multiple rounds of replication, literally billions of new viruses. By sequencing you can tell if one or more viruses are present because you will get more than one sequence if it is not a single virus.

 

Once cell debris is spun down you hold a vial of isolated SARS CoV-2 virus at a massive concentration. You can then use a number of techniques to purify viruses even more including binding them to beads which have anti-virus antibody attached so that that virus and nothing else will stick, then eluting them into a new solution, providing a completely pure prep. There are other methods too.

 

The point is replicating in cells that the SARS CoV-2 infects turns a tiny amount of SARS CoV-2 into 'industrial quantities' which can be further purified by other techniques until you literally have that virus and nothing else. 

 

 

Edited May 22, 2020 by partington

[yuyiinthesky]

20 minutes ago, partington said:

The isolation comes after the infection of test cells with human samples not before. You can't isolate before because you don't know what you are looking for!

 

Very simply: the supernatant or fluid of a dish which has been infected with SARS CoV-2 and left until all the cells are showing  death or toxic effects contains the viruses newly produced by multiple rounds of replication, literally billions of new viruses. By sequencing you can tell if one or more viruses are present because you will get more than one sequence if it is not a single virus.

 

Once cell debris is spun down you hold a vial of isolated SARS CoV-2 virus at a massive concentration. You can then use a number of techniques to purify viruses even more including binding them to beads which have anti-virus antibody attached so that that virus and nothing else will stick, then eluting them into a new solution, providing a completely pure prep. There are other methods too.

 

The point is replicating in cells that the SARS CoV-2 infects turns a tiny amount of SARS CoV-2 into 'industrial quantities' which can be further purified by other techniques until you literally have that virus and nothing else. 

 

 

Are you just making this up now or is there a source for this available?

[Susco]

https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-antibody-study-suggests-sweden-not-reaching-herd-immunity-2020-5?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=sf-bi-science

A new Swedish coronavirus antibody study suggests the herd-immunity strategy isn't working

[partington]

5 hours ago, yuyiinthesky said:

Are you just making this up now or is there a source for this available?

My final contribution- these articles are free on PubMed and you can do your own further research using the principles described in these, as a starting point if you are that interested. Or just Google viral preparation methods or some such to read about how these things are done.

 

The New England Journal of Medicine where the initial identification of SARS CoV-2 (ref. 1) was published is one of the world's top medical journals.

 

(Just as an aside, I have made with my own fair hands dozens of preparations of  recombinant adenoviruses -   a molecular biology tool for infecting cells and animals to make them express a gene you want - so I have zero respect for people who say viruses don't exist!)

 

1. New England Journal of Medicine. 2020 Feb 20;382(8):727-733. doi: 10.1056/NEJMoa2001017. Epub 2020 
Jan 24.

A Novel Coronavirus from Patients with Pneumonia in China, 2019.

Zhu N(1), Zhang D(1), Wang W(1), Li X(1), Yang B(1), Song J(1), Zhao X(1), Huang 
B(1), Shi W(1), Lu R(1), Niu P(1), Zhan F(1), Ma X(1), Wang D(1), Xu W(1), Wu 
G(1), Gao GF(1), Tan W(1); China Novel Coronavirus Investigating and Research 
Team.

ABSTRACT

In December 2019, a cluster of patients with pneumonia of unknown cause was 
linked to a seafood wholesale market in Wuhan, China. A previously unknown 
betacoronavirus was discovered through the use of unbiased sequencing in samples 
from patients with pneumonia. Human airway epithelial cells were used to isolate 
a novel coronavirus, named 2019-nCoV, which formed a clade within the subgenus 
sarbecovirus, Orthocoronavirinae subfamily. Different from both MERS-CoV and 
SARS-CoV, 2019-nCoV is the seventh member of the family of coronaviruses that 
infect humans. Enhanced surveillance and further investigation are ongoing. 
(Funded by the National Key Research and Development Program of China and the 
National Major Project for Control and Prevention of Infectious Disease in 
China.).

 

2. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences U S A. 2020;117(13):7001‐7003. doi:10.1073/pnas.2002589117

Matsuyama S, Nao N, Shirato K, et al.

Enhanced isolation of SARS-CoV-2 by TMPRSS2-expressing cells.
ABSTRACT
A novel betacoronavirus, severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2), which caused a large respiratory outbreak in Wuhan, China in December 2019, is currently spreading across many countries globally. Here, we show that a TMPRSS2-expressing VeroE6 cell line is highly susceptible to SARS-CoV-2 infection, making it useful for isolating and propagating SARS-CoV-2. Our results reveal that, in common with SARS- and Middle East respiratory syndrome-CoV, SARS-CoV-2 infection is enhanced by TMPRSS2.

 

Edited May 22, 2020 by partington

[Puccini]

Just 7.3% of Stockholm had Covid-19 antibodies by end of April, study shows

Official findings add to concerns about Sweden’s laissez-faire strategy towards the pandemic

 @jonhenley

Thu 21 May 2020 18.51 BST First published on Thu 21 May 2020 14.53 BST

 

 

Just 7.3% of Stockholm’s inhabitants had developed Covid-19 antibodies by the end of April, according to a study, raising concerns that the country’s light-touch approach to the coronavirus may not be helping it build up broad immunity.

 

The research by Sweden’s public health agency comes as Finland warned it would be risky to welcome Swedish tourists after figures suggested the country’s death rate per capita was the highest in Europe over the seven days to 19 May.

 

Sweden’s state epidemiologist, Anders Tegnell, said the antibodies figure was “a bit lower than we’d thought”, but added that it reflected the situation some weeks ago and he believed that by now “a little more than 20%” of the capital’s population had probably contracted the virus.

 

Read full article: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/21/just-7-per-cent-of-stockholm-had-covid-19-antibodies-by-end-of-april-study-sweden-coronavirus

Edited May 22, 2020 by Puccini

[Puccini]

From the news article in my previous post:

 

Quote

Tegnell has denied herd immunity is a goal in itself, saying Sweden aims instead to slow the spread of the virus enough for health services to cope.

 

Could the health services have coped better and would consequently the death rate in Sweden have been lower than it has actually been if Sweden had been on the type of lockdown that other European countries enforced?