Sweden - is the rest of the world dumb, blind or worse ?

[yuyiinthesky]

1 hour ago, chessman said:

Good point. It is a well known fact that governments always win re-election when their economy is doing badly. 

I don’t know why more governments don’t do this in election years... all you have to do is sink your economy and you’d be guaranteed to win.

This proves they had the motive and we all know they had the means. 

You have any source for these statements? (But please not again these crazy Q anon videos!)

[Bender Rodriguez]

in case, you did not know ...

 

hospitals are a business

 

patient dies of covid without ventilator = $13.000 payout for the hospital

 

patient dies of covid with ventilator = $39.000 payout for the hospital

 

now let's see what a hospital administrator will impose on patients

 

 

if patient has hypoxia = lack of oxygen, you actually might damage the lungs more with forcing a ventilator and they have to put old sick people to sleep with heavy medication, while they would not allow this if the heart is weak ...

 

they killed many people forcing the ventilator on them as this is "protocol" and out of the box thinking is not allowed for lawsuit reasons

 

[MikeyIdea]

2 hours ago, farang51 said:

It should be noted that in both Denmark and Sweden, the hospitals have been able to handle the pressure from COVID-19 patients. When that is not the case, the ifr can be much higher.

Elderly in Sweden are dying in care homes without the care they need because they are systematically not moved to hospitals when they need. 

 

In reality, the Swedish healthcare system can't cope. It's just politics. 

[chessman]

19 minutes ago, yuyiinthesky said:

You have any source for these statements? (But please not again these crazy Q anon videos!)

I’ll add an inability to detect sarcasm to your list of ‘skills’

[chessman]

28 minutes ago, yuyiinthesky said:

Sorry, not interested. I understand that you seem to have some conspiracy theories about fake flu death numbers. I don't. Therefore I leave that exercise for you.

Still dodging the question. Not fake Flu numbers at all but worked out in a completely different way. 
 

Amazing how you guys rely on the CDC and WHO numbers on flu but as soon as one of those organisations makes a point about how serious Covid 19 is, you talk about how corrupt they are and that they shouldn’t be trusted. 

[farang51]

39 minutes ago, yuyiinthesky said:

Nevertheless, your statement has absolutely nothing to do with my post.

It had everything to do with your post. You said: "Why is a Covid-19 death to be avoided by all means, even disastrous lockdowns, while a Flu death seems to be no problem, and that despite the Flu death number being higher. " Added bold to perhaps help you understand my answer to your post. Then again, if you cannot understand sarcasm, as chessman suggest, don't waste your time reading my answer again.

[chessman]

45 minutes ago, yuyiinthesky said:

Now I understand you!

Nevertheless, your statement has absolutely nothing to do with my post. I assume you replied to someone else, and the page jumping caused by the pop up ads moved the page when you clicked.

Wow, you have no idea about sarcasm at all. Are you American?

[chessman]

2 hours ago, Peter Denis said:

Also no link needed, because simply googling "BBC Hardtalk Anders Tegnell" will lead you to it.

He’s made himself available for lots of interviews so you can find many clips of him talking. Whatever you think about Sweden’s policy, he’s a sincere and serious person.

[MikeyIdea]

40 minutes ago, Bender Rodriguez said:

in case, you did not know ...

 

hospitals are a business

 

patient dies of covid without ventilator = $13.000 payout for the hospital

 

patient dies of covid with ventilator = $39.000 payout for the hospital

 

now let's see what a hospital administrator will impose on patients

 

 

if patient has hypoxia = lack of oxygen, you actually might damage the lungs more with forcing a ventilator and they have to put old sick people to sleep with heavy medication, while they would not allow this if the heart is weak ...

 

they killed many people forcing the ventilator on them as this is "protocol" and out of the box thinking is not allowed for lawsuit reasons

 

Just in case you didn't know, hospitals in Sweden are NOT a business, they are all government hospitals paid with tax money via yearly budgets and the legal system doesn't support law suits for monetary gain. 

Edited May 23, 2020 by MikeyIdea

[scubascuba3]

1 hour ago, farang51 said:

Do you have a link to the numbers from Germany? In Denmark, they have tested more than 1.000 people for antibodies; they found only 1 per cent with antibodies. The tests do not cover all the country and the people tested were not randomly chosen; but still, the number is much lower than anticipated. They are testing more people at the moment, and they should have better numbers next week and even better numbers in the coming weeks.

 

If the 1 per cent with antibodies turns out to be correct; the ifr (infection fatality rate) is around 1 per cent due to 561 deaths in a population of 5,8 million.

do a google search for it, it was within the last month, 15%

[scubascuba3]

1 hour ago, MikeyIdea said:

Anders Tegnell, note the spelling, held a press conference on Swedish TV yesterday where he reported the latest numbers, 7.3%.

 

They were "a bit disappointing but not too far off the model predictions, 1 to 2 percent". 

 

I like Anders, he's a really nice guy, I feel sorry for him.

 

i got the above from youtube search for "BBC Hardtalk Anders Tegnell"  see if i got it wrong

[chessman]

10 minutes ago, MikeyIdea said:

Just in case you didn't know, hospitals in Sweden are NOT a business, they are all government hospitals paid with tax money and the legal system doesn't support law suits for monetary gain. 

It’s the same in most of Europe, if not the whole continent.

 

unfortunately, the people who think lockdowns should never have been introduced seem unable to argue their case solely on the merits of that position. They also want to ‘prove‘ that there is a huge conspiracy to inflate the numbers of cases and deaths, that lockdowns have actually increased the numbers of cases and deaths and many other things... It’s actually a sign of the weakness of the position, a scattershot approach that accepts any theory, no matter how ridiculous it is, if they think it undermines the arguments for lockdowns. 
 

The truth is always a bit messier. It can be both true that strict lockdowns have been an overreaction and that we are underestimating the numbers dying due to Covid 19.

 

I thank you Mikeyldea for your updates about Sweden. Really interesting to have somebody there who can report what they are seeing themselves.

[Salerno]

4 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

i got the above from youtube search for "BBC Hardtalk Anders Tegnell"  see if i got it wrong

"Sweden has revealed that despite adopting more relaxed measures to control coronavirus, only 7.3 per cent of people in Stockholm had developed the antibodies needed to fight the disease by late April."

 

"Sweden's chief epidemiologist Anders Tegnell said the number was a "little lower" than expected "but not remarkably lower, maybe one or a couple of per cent"."

 

https://www.9news.com.au/world/coronavirus-sweden-is-still-nowhere-near-herd-immunity-even-though-it-didnt-go-into-lockdown/9f694b95-5be8-41c5-beef-9a2a1d0e8bd9

[simple1]

I've corrected prior post.

 

For those suggesting flu deaths in Sweden are greater than those for Covid you should know in 2012 reporting year there were a total of 1,000 flu related deaths. By comparison In the first five months of 2020 there have been nearly 4,000 deaths from Covid in Sweden.

 

https://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=2054&artikel=5436335

Edited May 23, 2020 by simple1

[scubascuba3]

5 minutes ago, chessman said:

They also want to ‘prove‘ that there is a huge conspiracy to inflate the numbers of cases and deaths, that lockdowns have actually increased the numbers of cases and deaths and many other things... 

total garbage that. Such a sweeping vague statement. In the UK its widely accepted that people aren't going to hospital for cancer treatment, strokes, heart issues and other conditions and will cause more deaths, fact. No idea about other countries

[scubascuba3]

9 minutes ago, Salerno said:

"Sweden has revealed that despite adopting more relaxed measures to control coronavirus, only 7.3 per cent of people in Stockholm had developed the antibodies needed to fight the disease by late April."

 

"Sweden's chief epidemiologist Anders Tegnell said the number was a "little lower" than expected "but not remarkably lower, maybe one or a couple of per cent"."

 

https://www.9news.com.au/world/coronavirus-sweden-is-still-nowhere-near-herd-immunity-even-though-it-didnt-go-into-lockdown/9f694b95-5be8-41c5-beef-9a2a1d0e8bd9

The video i quoted said something different, let's see the results of the actual trial, due in a few days

[farang51]

37 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

do a google search for it, it was within the last month, 15%

Apparantly, your ability to do a google search far exceeds my ability.

Edited May 23, 2020 by farang51

[Logosone]

10 hours ago, GalaxyMan said:

 Numbers don't lie. ???? Finland and Norway both have just over 5 million, half of Sweden. 

Exactly, numbers don't lie. And in Sweden 0.0395 per cent of the population died with a Covid19 diagnosis. 

 

That's a tiny number by any stretch of the imagination. Sweden did an excellent job in keeping firm and not allowing a serious, but numerically small, problem to ruin their economy.

 

If only all our own governments had been that smart.

[Logosone]

10 hours ago, chessman said:

And he's back!

 

A few weeks ago you were touting the same arguments when the number was 0.022ish of the population. It rises 80% in a few weeks, 1000s of more people dead and you continue. How high do those numbers have to get before you entertain the idea that perhaps Sweden made a mistake?

Well of course, whether it's 0.022 or 0.039 per cent of the population, any fool can see that is a tiny number.

 

Sweden has not made a mistake, they have done a cool and rational analysis. Dr Tegnell has confirmed that there were hardly any studies on the effect of lockdowns, and we are seeing now that most countries, Denmark, Germany and many many others, actually have falling case numbers despite lockdowns having been lifted.

 

It's not Sweden that has made a mistake, it is you, the apologists and proponents of lockdown that made the mistake. But of course you'll never admit it and will keep arguing to your dying breath that lockdowns had a major impact on the pandemic, despite all the evidence to the contrary that is now emerging. See the JP Morgan study.

Edited May 23, 2020 by Logosone

[yuyiinthesky]

Some good news about Sweden, this time from the Telegraph, a few day old though.

(I apologize if that was posted here already, I haven't seen it yet.)
 

Quote

Sweden has reaped the benefits of keeping its economy out of lockdown after escaping the dramatic growth slumps suffered by European rivals.

 

The Scandinavian country has taken a far more relaxed approach to tackling the coronavirus than much of the West, keeping most schools, restaurants and businesses open and relying on a voluntary approach to social distancing.

 

Official figures show the country's economy shrank by just 0.3pc in the first three months of 2020, a far smaller decline than most forecasters and its central bank expected. The Riksbank had pencilled in a drop of between 0.8pc and 1.8pc.

 

The smaller scale of the fall contrasts with record slumps seen elsewhere across the Eurozone over the quarter as governments imposed much more stringent measures. France's economy tumbled 5.8pc, Italy's 4.7pc and Spain's by 5.2pc, while the Eurozone’s output overall sank by 3.8pc - the worst decline in its history. The figures are likely to be far worse in the second quarter as lockdowns grind on....

Source: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2020/05/05/light-touch-sweden-suffers-smaller-growth-hit-coronavirus/

[DeadBite]

On 5/22/2020 at 1:24 PM, partington said:

Well I wondered what your obsession with "filtering" was! Filtering is the wrong word for what you were trying to say, and as you now use the right word "isolating", I'm still puzzled, even though English may be your second language, why you kept saying "filtering" which didn't really make sense.

 

I can tell from the nature of your response that you have pre-decided to follow conspiracy/ fake news rather than objectively assess the facts, so I'm not trying to convince you in the following- you are immunised against facts!  

 

For anyone who is interested briefly here is how the SARs Cov-2 virus was isolated and identified in China.

 

Liquid samples were taken from nasal passages/lungs of patients suffering from the new pneumonia-like disease.  These were placed on cultures of airway epithelial cells in dishes and the dishes were monitored for signs of cell death or toxicity, signalling infection and replication by a disease causing organism. Cells from dishes showing these signs were collected.

 

Some were examined under electron microscopy and showed that spiked coronavirus particles were present.  Others were used in next generation sequencing and a complete genome sequence was obtained. When compared with the known database this sequence was found to be a new coronavirus, clearly related to but different from, other known coronaviruses.

 

 

Cell media from cultured cells infected with this virus could be shown to reproducibly infect and kill cells in other dishes by serial passaging, and the same genomic sequence and viral particles were also shown to be always present in these cells but never in uninfected healthy cells grown in identical dishes at the same time.

You can describe the procedure all you want.

The genetic material you got is either from exosomes, or genetic material that has been produced in a diseased tissue from bacteria, fungi or the cell's reaction to toxins..
You want to call it "virus", it doesn't make it a virus until you prove it scientifically. PCR replicates DNA, does not prove the existence of virus.

The rest of us are realizing the danger Virology is putting us, and we say enough.
Keep studying viruses and vaccines, but keep them in your lab, otherwise you do more harm than good.

Edited May 23, 2020 by DeadBite

[DeadBite]

.

Edited May 23, 2020 by DeadBite

[yuyiinthesky]

2 hours ago, chessman said:

the people who think lockdowns should never have been introduced seem unable to argue their case solely on the merits of that position. They also want to ‘prove‘ that there is a huge conspiracy to inflate the numbers of cases and deaths, that lockdowns have actually increased the numbers of cases and deaths and many other things...

Another malicious imputation.

I think most of the ones you attack here want nothing but that the number of deaths is minimized, overall and everywhere, and that the economies are not destroyed when attempting to reach this target.

Confrontation and bickering is not needed. Good news can be just good, and don't need to be dismissed, simply you don't like the messenger.

There are enough examples showing that lockdowns are not a requirement to reduce the number of Covid-19 deaths.
What is needed is to isolate the vulnerable, the elderly, the ones which are already sick. (At least about that nobody disagrees, not even you, I hope.)

There is no need for bickering, and for malicious imputations. Some countries treat their citizens like children, which need orders to to what is supposed to be good for them, others treat their citizens like adults. At the end we only argue how we want to get treated. You want orders, or to order, some others don't like that. 

[yuyiinthesky]

3 hours ago, chessman said:

I’ll add an inability to detect sarcasm to your list of ‘skills’

Likewise.
You want to give, but you cannot take ????

[Bkk Brian]

1 hour ago, Logosone said:

Sweden has not made a mistake, they have done a cool and rational analysis. Dr Tegnell has confirmed that there were hardly any studies on the effect of lockdowns, and we are seeing now that most countries, Denmark, Germany and many many others, actually have falling case numbers despite lockdowns having been lifted.

 

It's not Sweden that has made a mistake, it is you, the apologists and proponents of lockdown that made the mistake. But of course you'll never admit it and will keep arguing to your dying breath that lockdowns had a major impact on the pandemic, despite all the evidence to the contrary that is now emerging. See the JP Morgan study.

I'll be the first to congratulate Dr Tegnell if the Sweden model works better than lockdowns, I watched the Hardtalk interview with him a few days ago and was impressed by his honesty and clarity on all the questions put to him. He was very convincing.

 

However this is still not over and nobody can at this stage say Swedens model has been a success, to do so is just foolhardy, the non-experts who are supremely confident in their predictions and are convinced it will be are thankfully not those in charge, as they still need to gather full data to make comparisons. 

 

For instance you are using the argument that "Denmark, Germany and many many others, actually have falling case numbers despite lockdowns being lifted" The falling case numbers preseeded the lockdown easing, thats why the decision makers eased the lockdowns because of the falling case numbers. Who are the many many others by the way?

 

On a personal note, I do hope Swedens strategy is a success, they have made some major mistakes with the elderly population, but if those had not been made then it does look like it has real potential, only more time will tell however and I look forward to the data they are currently gathering on the populations immunity level which is due soon. 

 

JP Morgan study ha ha!

Edited May 23, 2020 by Bkk Brian

[chessman]

1 minute ago, yuyiinthesky said:

Another malicious imputation.

You write stuff like that but the next post that suggests that Bill Gates is responsible for the whole crisis you’ll be all over it.

 

your positions are not serious because I know exactly what side you will be on on any argument, the evidence is not important to you. 
 

 

[chessman]

1 hour ago, Logosone said:

Well of course, whether it's 0.022 or 0.039 per cent of the population, any fool can see that is a tiny number.

It’s 1000s of people, brothers, sisters, fathers and mothers. People who were loved.

 

And if you take the predictions by the national banks, Sweden’s GDP will fall by 0.9% less than Norways. 

[yuyiinthesky]

18 minutes ago, chessman said:

You write stuff like that but the next post that suggests that Bill Gates is responsible for the whole crisis you’ll be all over it.

Well, I see that there is a conflict of interest in his activities, and I dare to say that. You might prefer to see an angel in him. I don't.

 

 

[yuyiinthesky]

24 minutes ago, chessman said:

the evidence is not important to you. 

Such statements are not evidence. They are best case bickering and worst case malicious imputations.

[yuyiinthesky]

29 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

On a personal note, I do hope Swedens strategy is a success, they have made some major mistakes with the elderly population, but if those had not been made then it does look like it has real potential, only more time will tell however and I look forward to the data they are currently gathering on the populations immunity level which is due soon. 

???? I fully agree.