Sweden - is the rest of the world dumb, blind or worse ?

[cmarshall]

Sweden is the sixth worst out of 150 countries.  They failed to protect their population. How much right-wing denial does it take to turn night into day?

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/

 

[Bluetongue]

41 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

Sweden is the sixth worst out of 150 countries.  They failed to protect their population. How much right-wing denial does it take to turn night into day?

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/

 

I think most sensible people acknowledge that there was a major fault in Sweden's response, allowing Covid to easily spread through care facilities and greatly increase the death rate, I'm not drawing any conclusions as I dont know the numbers, just pointing that out. My friend in Malmo alleges that the state pension will now rise as the amount paid is relative to the number of recipients, he says the goal all along. Anyway as more knowledge and information emerges wouldn't one expect the strategies to alter, I see not much evidence of that in many nations. To baldly state that any alternative to the blunt weapons of lockdown is right wing nut jobbery is in my opinion an almost equally extreme position. Shouldn't the public anywhere be part of the debate about how effective measures are and what alternatives there might be. What is right wing about that?

[cmarshall]

1 hour ago, Bluetongue said:

I think most sensible people acknowledge that there was a major fault in Sweden's response, allowing Covid to easily spread through care facilities and greatly increase the death rate, I'm not drawing any conclusions as I dont know the numbers, just pointing that out. My friend in Malmo alleges that the state pension will now rise as the amount paid is relative to the number of recipients, he says the goal all along. Anyway as more knowledge and information emerges wouldn't one expect the strategies to alter, I see not much evidence of that in many nations. To baldly state that any alternative to the blunt weapons of lockdown is right wing nut jobbery is in my opinion an almost equally extreme position. Shouldn't the public anywhere be part of the debate about how effective measures are and what alternatives there might be. What is right wing about that?

Your friend in Malmo is a nut job.  Even at this late date it is evidently beyond you to that the best practices successfully followed by S. Korea, Taiwan and others didn't involve lockdowns.  But I guess such subtleties are just above your pay grade.

[Tanoshi]

On 5/16/2020 at 10:20 AM, Bender Rodriguez said:

all this panic over what?

 

look what Sweden did and still does

 

the rest of the world is in lockdown and economic meltdown

Pretty brash statement coming from a Swede who chooses to stay in Thailand !!!

[thaibeachlovers]

20 hours ago, cmarshall said:

Sweden is the sixth worst out of 150 countries.  They failed to protect their population. How much right-wing denial does it take to turn night into day?

I'll wait to see how many more than usual died of suicide and domestic violence in countries that locked down compared to Sweden before making judgements. Domestic violence increased in NZ because of lockdowns. Too early to say if suicides increased a lot though. I expect more will happen because of business failure and loss of home because of lockdown destroying economy.

Corona kills mainly the old, but poverty destroys the young.

[Mama Noodle]

9 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Domestic violence increased in NZ because of lockdowns.

 

NZ and Oz have lost their minds due to covid. Some of the press releases coming out of those 2 countries are shocking. 

 

Ardern was saying that if someone refuses a covid test, they will be held for 2 weeks in quarantine against their will.

 

Police Chief in one Oz city (Melbourne maybe) saying that if anyone refuses to give their name and destination while traveling, they will break the windows out of your car and drag you out and force you to do so, or detain you. 

 

Madness, and there are people that are completely fine with this. 

[Bluetongue]

22 hours ago, cmarshall said:

Your friend in Malmo is a nut job.  Even at this late date it is evidently beyond you to that the best practices successfully followed by S. Korea, Taiwan and others didn't involve lockdowns.  But I guess such subtleties are just above your pay grade.

Your hostile, supercilious and unnecessarily insulting response is noted. Never at any stage did I say Sweden was best practice. But let me summarise what you are saying, Sweden no lockdown, high fatality rate bad (without acknowledging the mistake they know they've made with care homes) South Korea limited lockdown (although you say none) low deaths lower case rates good, ditto Taiwan even lower. By the way the outbreak in South Korea is by no means over, and to compare a European country with countries neighbouring China and who are used to their lies, deceptions and previous outbreaks is valid but only up to a point. OK so I attempted to introduce the friend in Malmo because he was joking, i was foolishly attempting to lower the temperature generated by humourless know alls like yourself. I apologise if the joke was beneath your pay grade. However even after all that you still didn't attempt to answer the question, what is right wing about questioning methods of dealing with Covid and the alternatives. I really dont want to engage in an abusive argument with someone who is clearly, one of those people who decide they are right and then indulge in abuse of anyone who has even the slightest divergence of views from them. If you are not in favour of lockdowns good, neiher am I. But looking forward to the response in any case.

[cmarshall]

7 minutes ago, Bluetongue said:

Your hostile, supercilious and unnecessarily insulting response is noted. Never at any stage did I say Sweden was best practice. But let me summarise what you are saying, Sweden no lockdown, high fatality rate bad (without acknowledging the mistake they know they've made with care homes) South Korea limited lockdown (although you say none) low deaths lower case rates good, ditto Taiwan even lower. By the way the outbreak in South Korea is by no means over, and to compare a European country with countries neighbouring China and who are used to their lies, deceptions and previous outbreaks is valid but only up to a point. OK so I attempted to introduce the friend in Malmo because he was joking, i was foolishly attempting to lower the temperature generated by humourless know alls like yourself. I apologise if the joke was beneath your pay grade. However even after all that you still didn't attempt to answer the question, what is right wing about questioning methods of dealing with Covid and the alternatives. I really dont want to engage in an abusive argument with someone who is clearly, one of those people who decide they are right and then indulge in abuse of anyone who has even the slightest divergence of views from them. If you are not in favour of lockdowns good, neiher am I. But looking forward to the response in any case.

What is both right-wing and, in fact, stupid is your view that the alternatives are lockdown or Sweden's just-let-the-old-folks-die.  I find it hard to fathom that even at this late date you haven't grasped the difference between the responses of countries that have been successful at controlling the virus and the Western countries all of whom failed in varying degrees.  The only right way to deal with an epidemic is to surveil China and Africa for emergent pathogens and then at the first indication of a new epidemic start testing either widely like S. Korea or focusing on travellers and other likely victims, then isolate the infected, forcibly if necessary, and trace their contacts.  If a country has failed to follow these best practices, then the only recourse may be to a lockdown, but that is already indicative of failure.   All of the successful countries implemented a version of these best practices which were promoted by the WHO while none, zero, zip of the Western countries who failed did.  

 

These best practices were demonstrably what eradicated SARS in 2003.  There is no reason that Sweden could not have surveiled China effectively, by partnership with the S. Korean CDC, for example.  But they didn't.  By the time they attempted contact tracing Covid-19 was too widespread already, so they gave up.  And so today Sweden has the seventh worst deaths per million record in the world.  

 

By stupidly persisting in framing the question as lockdown/no lockdown instead of best practices/failure you invite the scorn you have received.  

 

[Bluetongue]

25 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

What is both right-wing and, in fact, stupid is your view that the alternatives are lockdown or Sweden's just-let-the-old-folks-die.  I find it hard to fathom that even at this late date you haven't grasped the difference between the responses of countries that have been successful at controlling the virus and the Western countries all of whom failed in varying degrees.  The only right way to deal with an epidemic is to surveil China and Africa for emergent pathogens and then at the first indication of a new epidemic start testing either widely like S. Korea or focusing on travellers and other likely victims, then isolate the infected, forcibly if necessary, and trace their contacts.  If a country has failed to follow these best practices, then the only recourse may be to a lockdown, but that is already indicative of failure.   All of the successful countries implemented a version of these best practices which were promoted by the WHO while none, zero, zip of the Western countries who failed did.  

 

These best practices were demonstrably what eradicated SARS in 2003.  There is no reason that Sweden could not have surveiled China effectively, by partnership with the S. Korean CDC, for example.  But they didn't.  By the time they attempted contact tracing Covid-19 was too widespread already, so they gave up.  And so today Sweden has the seventh worst deaths per million record in the world.  

 

By stupidly persisting in framing the question as lockdown/no lockdown instead of best practices/failure you invite the scorn you have received.  

 

I don't think Sweden just chose to "let the old folks die". I think that was most likely an error or a series of errors. Accusing me of promoting either lockdown or let the old folks die as being the only options is laughable. Of course I did no such thing. I merely had the temerity to pose a question as to why exploring other options as a response was right wing. Which I am not although please feel free to assume as I'm sure you will because it suits you. To then go off on a completely different tangent related to the WHO best practice response as being the only responsible course of action is fine, I have no problem with that, other than to say if it hasn't been widely implemented then logically WHO must be at least partially responsible for the failure of one of its missions. No wonder people want to explore other responses including the WHO sanctioned one if that's the case.

[vermin on arrival]

On 8/17/2020 at 3:24 PM, Peter Denis said:

Time to revive this thread with an interesting article!

How bad is covid really? (A Swedish doctor’s perspective) – Sebastian Rushworth M.D.

I always like a Common Sense perspective, and that's exactly what this easy to read article provides.

Great Article

[Logosone]

No lockdown, no masks, no hysteria... NO PROBLEM: Sweden didn't go into a corona coma - and it's living in glorious normality. Now DOMINIC SANDBROOK asks: Is this proof we got it all terribly wrong?

 

 

Sweden’s death rate is still lower than those in Belgium (87 per 100,000 people), Spain (62), Britain (62) and Italy (58) — all of which did go into lockdown.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-8652523/No-lockdown-no-hysteria-DOMINIC-SANDBROOK-asks-Sweden-proof-got-terribly-wrong.html

[thaibeachlovers]

15 minutes ago, Logosone said:

No lockdown, no masks, no hysteria... NO PROBLEM: Sweden didn't go into a corona coma - and it's living in glorious normality. Now DOMINIC SANDBROOK asks: Is this proof we got it all terribly wrong?

 

 

Sweden’s death rate is still lower than those in Belgium (87 per 100,000 people), Spain (62), Britain (62) and Italy (58) — all of which did go into lockdown.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-8652523/No-lockdown-no-hysteria-DOMINIC-SANDBROOK-asks-Sweden-proof-got-terribly-wrong.html

Those that believe in lockdowns etc HAVE to put Sweden down or admit they wuz wrong. In NZ the south island is included in the restrictive level 2 despite having ZERO infections. Governments love to control the sheeple.

How long till people openly rebel? Seems to be happening already.

 

However, the more they restrict the more likely we are to get a different government come the election, so carry on PM.

Edited August 26, 2020 by thaibeachlovers

[Logosone]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Those that believe in lockdowns etc HAVE to put Sweden down or admit they wuz wrong.

Well exactly.

 

They hate Sweden because it proves them wrong.

 

No lockdown, no compulsory mask coercion, yet better off than several countries that put in place lockdown.

 

No wonder the panic brigade hate Sweden. It proves them wrong.

[Bkk Brian]

I think those of us who were very skeptical about Sweden's strategy have now got to take a step back, because what I'm seeing is that although there was a risk to this approach and despite the high death rate compared to some countries, the evidence is now there for everyone to see. Low numbers, both new infections and deaths. Doing far better than most other countries in terms of covid and economically. All with no lockdowns etc and all the negative repercussions that they cause.

 

Something here has worked far better than the strict measures that have crippled economies worldwide. This may not be a feasible approach for all countries but for Sweden its currently been the best approach and consequently may have also been the best approach for many other countries. 

 

Of course Sweden has locked its borders to countries outside the EU and did close high schools and Universities but thats a small price to pay in comparison.

 

Interesting article here.

 

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/sweden-has-developed-herd-immunity-after-refusing-to-lock-down-experts-claim-its-coronavirus-infection-rate-is-falling-2020-08-24

[Logosone]

15 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

I think those of us who were very skeptical about Sweden's strategy have now got to take a step back, because what I'm seeing is that although there was a risk to this approach and despite the high death rate compared to some countries, the evidence is now there for everyone to see. Low numbers, both new infections and deaths. Doing far better than most other countries in terms of covid and economically. All with no lockdowns etc and all the negative repercussions that they cause.

 

Something here has worked far better than the strict measures that have crippled economies worldwide. This may not be a feasible approach for all countries but for Sweden its currently been the best approach and consequently may have also been the best approach for many other countries. 

 

Of course Sweden has locked its borders to countries outside the EU and did close high schools and Universities but thats a small price to pay in comparison.

 

Interesting article here.

 

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/sweden-has-developed-herd-immunity-after-refusing-to-lock-down-experts-claim-its-coronavirus-infection-rate-is-falling-2020-08-24

 

I tip my hat to your insightful humility in acknowledging facts when they're facts. I recall you were one of the most vociferous critics of the Swedish approach, but if you can see facts for facts that is a rare event here on TVF and frankly shows that these discussions are not in vain. If even one person can acknowledge reality that is a good day for everyone. Well done.

[vermin on arrival]

4 hours ago, Logosone said:

 

I tip my hat to your insightful humility in acknowledging facts when they're facts. I recall you were one of the most vociferous critics of the Swedish approach, but if you can see facts for facts that is a rare event here on TVF and frankly shows that these discussions are not in vain. If even one person can acknowledge reality that is a good day for everyone. Well done.

Yeah, this is what civil discourse should be able to result in, I have changed my mind about things a few times during this pandemic due to discussions on tvf. Good on you BKK Brian. It takes intellectual courage to admit when you were wrong about something and change your mind. Big thumbs up.

Edited August 26, 2020 by vermin on arrival

[Logosone]

On 8/26/2020 at 10:39 PM, vermin on arrival said:

Yeah, this is what civil discourse should be able to result in, I have changed my mind about things a few times during this pandemic due to discussions on tvf. Good on you BKK Brian. It takes intellectual courage to admit when you were wrong about something and change your mind. Big thumbs up.

It does, and Brian was always a rational and civil debater on the Swedish pandemic measures even if you did not see eye to eye with him at that time.

[vermin on arrival]

26 minutes ago, Logosone said:

It does, and Brian was always a rational and civil debater on the Swedish pandemic measures even if you did not see eye to eye with him at that time.

agreed

[thaibeachlovers]

On 8/26/2020 at 11:09 PM, Bkk Brian said:

I think those of us who were very skeptical about Sweden's strategy have now got to take a step back, because what I'm seeing is that although there was a risk to this approach and despite the high death rate compared to some countries, the evidence is now there for everyone to see. Low numbers, both new infections and deaths. Doing far better than most other countries in terms of covid and economically. All with no lockdowns etc and all the negative repercussions that they cause.

 

Something here has worked far better than the strict measures that have crippled economies worldwide. This may not be a feasible approach for all countries but for Sweden its currently been the best approach and consequently may have also been the best approach for many other countries. 

 

Of course Sweden has locked its borders to countries outside the EU and did close high schools and Universities but thats a small price to pay in comparison.

 

Interesting article here.

 

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/sweden-has-developed-herd-immunity-after-refusing-to-lock-down-experts-claim-its-coronavirus-infection-rate-is-falling-2020-08-24

Had Sweden isolated the at risk, few could claim it went the wrong way.

[Bkk Brian]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Had Sweden isolated the at risk, few could claim it went the wrong way.

Absolutely. However Sweden has a robust health system so I'm not sure how this approach would work in developing countries but certainly in developed countries this would have seemed to be the best option. 

[steelepulse]

Every country just needs to keep the vulnerable at bay and let this run through the population.  I'm not sure why governments aren't doing this ( actually I am sure, big pharma wants to cash in on a not needed vaccine to inoculate the entire worldwide population).  Fauci and his NIAID patents along with a few others stand to make a nice little tidy sum from Moderna.

Edited August 29, 2020 by steelepulse

[Logosone]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Had Sweden isolated the at risk, few could claim it went the wrong way.

Yes, the lack of attention to care homes was, in hindsight, the mistake everyone did, including the UK.

 

Sweden also did not test early enough and not at a level of the neighbours.

 

Had Sweden done that, even with its greater population density compared to Norway, Finland etc, it would have had better numbers.

[scammed]

maybe its inevitable that 80+ year olds catching the flue wont make it, its very clear in case of sweden

which age group is at risk

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1107913/number-of-coronavirus-deaths-in-sweden-by-age-groups/

[Stygge]

An interview with Dr David Nabarro, a special envoy of The World Health Organisation (one of six) specializing in COVID-19. He praise New Zealand but suggest the world should follow Sweden´s example.

 

https://www.magic.co.nz/home/news/2020/08/nz-should-move-to-similar-approach-to-covid-as-sweden--who-speci.html

 

[thaibeachlovers]

5 hours ago, Stygge said:

An interview with Dr David Nabarro, a special envoy of The World Health Organisation (one of six) specializing in COVID-19. He praise New Zealand but suggest the world should follow Sweden´s example.

 

https://www.magic.co.nz/home/news/2020/08/nz-should-move-to-similar-approach-to-covid-as-sweden--who-speci.html

 

Till/ IF a vaccine is available to create herd immunity in NZ they appear to have no alternative to lockdown every time a cluster appears. If there is a plan B they are being very quiet about it.

I prefer the Swedish plan.

[GroveHillWanderer]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I prefer the Swedish plan.

I think I would prefer a plan that doesn't give you the 7th highest per capita death rate in the world (excluding micro-states) while not protecting your economy in a particularly outstanding manner either.

 

It's true that their 2nd quarter economic performance was better than most of the more southerly. European countries, shrinking by only 8.6% but it didn't do as well as some more comparable near neighbours such as Denmark, which had a relatively strict lockdown, but only saw its economy shrink by 7.4%.

 

Overall, I think I prefer the Danish model, which in addition to better protecting its economy, also protected its citizens' lives with a per capita death rate more than five times lower than Sweden's.

Edited August 31, 2020 by GroveHillWanderer

[Bluetongue]

I don't know that there is much value comparing death rates, unless at the same time you compare what data goes into them ie Sweden vs Denmark. I know that in Australia nursing home patients who are under palliative care are still couinted as a Covid death if infected. That is the medical profession has already deemed that the person will die and does not treat them. That might result in a much higher death rate (let alone fear factor) which in my opinion is artificially inflated. I think we better get used to a lot of back pedalling and ass covering in the months and years to come as more facts and data emerge, and some politicians in particular will be worried about their next elections going badly if it emerges that they stuffed up the initial or even medium/long term responses.

[Logosone]

1 hour ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

I think I would prefer a plan that doesn't give you the 7th highest per capita death rate in the world (excluding micro-states) while not protecting your economy in a particularly outstanding manner either.

 

It's true that their 2nd quarter economic performance was better than most of the more southerly. European countries, shrinking by only 8.6% but it didn't do as well as some more comparable near neighbours such as Denmark, which had a relatively strict lockdown, but only saw its economy shrink by 7.4%.

 

Overall, I think I prefer the Danish model, which in addition to better protecting its economy, also protected its citizens' lives with a per capita death rate more than five times lower than Sweden's.

Totally disagree.

 

Denmark's economy is miniscule, it is not comparable to larger countries, Denmark is a bit of a dwarf country. The Danish economy is almost half the size of Sweden. Given its small size of course in percentage terms the losses will be smaller.

 

Sweden moreover is more densely populated with more cities, and larger cities, than Denmark. It will always be much easier to control the virus in such mini countries like Denmark, those lessons don't apply to Sweden really.

[GroveHillWanderer]

1 hour ago, Logosone said:

Given its small size of course in percentage terms the losses will be smaller.

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, either logically or mathematically. Percentages are not dependent on the overall size of the thing under consideration.

[farang51]

2 hours ago, Logosone said:

Denmark's economy is miniscule, it is not comparable to larger countries, Denmark is a bit of a dwarf country. The Danish economy is almost half the size of Sweden. Given its small size of course in percentage terms the losses will be smaller.

 

Sweden moreover is more densely populated with more cities, and larger cities, than Denmark. It will always be much easier to control the virus in such mini countries like Denmark, those lessons don't apply to Sweden really.

GDP per capita is bigger in Denmark. Besides, as GroveHillWanderer points out, you do not seem to understand what percentage means.

 

Population density:

Denmark 137 per square km

Sweden 25 per square km

 

Speaking of population density, low density is probably an avantage in an pandemic.