Sweden - is the rest of the world dumb, blind or worse ?

[chessman]

5 minutes ago, yuyiinthesky said:

I find it disgusting to look at the death stats of the countries hoping that the countries with the model I don't like have more deaths than the countries with the models I like.

I wish best success to all of them. 

I don't think anybody is doing that. I have a lot of family in Sweden and try to be as objective as possible, I certainly don't want harm to come to Sweden or the people of any country.

 

But you need to quote those figures showing mortality because they are worrying. A lot of these arguments started when Sweden had similar figures to Denmark and Norway...  It is very noticeable that the trend is not looking good for Sweden. Not only are the figures high but they are increasing more than in other countries.

[talahtnut]

As for the rest of the world, In the UK

J. Corbyn's brother has been arrested

in Hyde Park speaking on the Covid 19

as being a con and the health hazard of 5G.

Health hazard of 5G, for those in doubt

should refer to US the Senate Bill 637

evidence.

From Hyde Park London,

https://youtu.be/TSGPI06JVds

I did notice the police weren't masked.

[notmyself]

23 hours ago, yuyiinthesky said:

And it is ignoring that the overall death rate depends on the number of infections, which will eventually be the same everywhere (remember, flattening the curve is just distributing the infections over a longer time frame).

Nevertheless, if you prefer to be locked down nothing stops you from staying at home.

 

Lot of people don't understand that. 

 

[UbonThani]

3 minutes ago, notmyself said:

Nevertheless, if you prefer to be locked down nothing stops you from staying at home.

Yep. These people should stay home. Others want to return to living.

[notmyself]

17 minutes ago, UbonThani said:

Yep. These people should stay home. Others want to return to living.

 

Jebu$... you sound like a Christian lol

[johnnybangkok]

2 hours ago, yuyiinthesky said:

You make a lot of (malicious?) imputations.

The points you are listing above are not unknown, and as far as I can see not rejected or excluded by the ones being sympathetic to Sweden's model. Not at all.

I did not see anyone arguing against them. Personally I think that closing high schools and universities goes too far, but that is not an issue for me.

"gatherings of more than 50 people are legally banned, and the public has voluntarily avoided large gatherings of  10 or more" - nothing too wrong with that! in my humble opionion there should be a difference between indoors and outdoors though, it is known by now that infections spread in closed rooms with bad ventilation.

"many businesses introduced work at home policies" - nothing wrong with that, not at all. I enjoy working from home.

 

"long term care facilities have restrictions on access" - the elderly and vulnerable should be protected, I think nobody is against that and that Sweden improved that point was welcomed by everybody. Please do not impute otherwise.

"public movement in the at risk high population density cities has fallen significantly with fewer commuters and fewer people on the streets." - that was not an ordered restriction, but voluntary, and nothing wrong with that.

"Yes, Sweden has not implemented a full lock down" - now here we come to the important point. That is what I see as remarkable, good, and the model for other countries.

• Businesses can stay open.
• You can meet your friends in a cafe.
• No curfew.
• No lockdown of cities with checkpoints and police controls, examining if you have a right to move your bottom from place A to place B. If you think you should travel, then it is respected.
• No home arrest. 
• You can go to the beach.
• You can go to the gym.
• etc.

I understand the panic that happened in most countries that locked down, scared that they don't survive the next election if they don't. It started with good intentions, based on flawed models though, but good intentions.

I unterstand also (and prefer) Sweden's model. Also based on good intentions. 

So please stop these allegations of new world order etc, this is not the point, not at all. 

I find it disgusting to look at the death stats of the countries hoping that the countries with the model I don't like have more deaths than the countries with the models I like.

I wish best success to all of them. 

Not sure why it looks like you were replying to me. That wasn't my post. Glitch in the matrix?

[UbonThani]

1 hour ago, notmyself said:

 

Jebu$... you sound like a Christian lol

They have bars for Christians?

[notmyself]

19 minutes ago, UbonThani said:

They have bars for Christians?

 

Quote

Yep. These people should stay home. Others want to return to living.

 

Lions were favoured at some point it time. Saved on metal and the food was free.

 

[yuyiinthesky]

1 hour ago, johnnybangkok said:

Not sure why it looks like you were replying to me. That wasn't my post. Glitch in the matrix?

Indeed, the quote should have said "geriatrickid". I think this happened due to the constant and annoying jumping up and down of the pages from these ads loading slowly and popping in, pushing the content you looked at away, and then you end up a post below or above the one you think you're looking at. I apologize for not double-checking.

[Peter Denis]

6 minutes ago, yuyiinthesky said:

Indeed, the quote should have said "geriatrickid". I think this happened due to the constant and annoying jumping up and down of the pages from these ads loading slowly and popping in, pushing the content you looked at away, and then you end up a post below or above the one you think you're looking at. I apologize for not double-checking.

I PM-ed you a solution to avoid the page-jumping...

[Sujo]

19 hours ago, yuyiinthesky said:

So what is your excuse to not follow the science and the Swedish model?

Because i follow the science and the nz, australian model, which has proven to work.

[tlock]

4 minutes ago, Sujo said:

Because i follow the science and the nz, australian model, which has proven to work.

How do you propose to re-open international travel with the containment model? 

[vermin on arrival]

2 minutes ago, Sujo said:

Because i follow the science and the nz, australian model, which has proven to work.

So have South Korea, Taiwan and Hong Kong which did not involve lockdowns. Seems there are many ways for things to work.

[Sujo]

2 minutes ago, tlock said:

How do you propose to re-open international travel with the containment model? 

I dont. I listen to the science, they decide.

[tlock]

Just now, vermin on arrival said:

So have South Korea, Taiwan and Hong Kong which did not involve lockdowns. Seems there are many ways for things to work.

Agreed- different situations seem to require different solutions.  It certainly appears that island nations (other than SK those all seem to be islands) are able to efficiently contain this virus.  

 

[Sujo]

2 minutes ago, vermin on arrival said:

So have South Korea, Taiwan and Hong Kong which did not involve lockdowns. Seems there are many ways for things to work.

Wont work in US as the general public just dont care and want their freedom, sod the rest.

[tlock]

Just now, Sujo said:

Wont work in US as the general public just dont care and want their freedom, sod the rest.

Yeah unfortunately people in the US have been brainwashed since childhood to value freedom.  

[Sujo]

Vietnam has kicked goals.

 

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/health-problems/coronavirus-cases-how-vietnam-sledgehammered-virus-curve/news-story/703f1dfe65ab43d3ccf61c0c1fbbea1a

[Sujo]

20 minutes ago, tlock said:

Yeah unfortunately people in the US have been brainwashed since childhood to value freedom.  

True, they value it over everything whilst other countries understand that sometimes the greater good is to limit some freedoms to save lives.

 

Hows all the winning.

[tlock]

1 minute ago, Sujo said:

True, they value it over everything whilst other countries understand that sometimes the greater good is to limit some freedoms to save lives.

 

Hows all the winning.

Give us time.  I think the generation that is children now will learn to value the greater good over individual freedoms.

[UbonThani]

3 minutes ago, tlock said:

Give us time.  I think the generation that is children now will learn to value the greater good over individual freedoms.

Communism isnt greater good. The US has more rules than most btw

[balo]

On 5/16/2020 at 5:20 AM, Bender Rodriguez said:

all this panic over what?

 

look what Sweden did and still does

 

the rest of the world is in lockdown and economic meltdown

First of all the rest of the world are not in a lock down, including Norway, life is almost back to normal here.

If you ask us Norwegians, the Swedes have lost control completely. And they know it.  Here in Norway we have less then 300 deaths. We share the same border, most Norwegians and Swedes lives in smaller towns and villages , so there are no excuses. 

Stockholm is the exception, they never had any control there from the beginning. 

 

[GinBoy2]

36 minutes ago, Sujo said:

Wont work in US as the general public just dont care and want their freedom, sod the rest.

Well remember the US, really isn't one country, but 50 States, who have chosen to cede certain powers to the Federal Government, a detail many of European prognosticators seem not to understand.

 

So the US has a patchwork of different States implementing different rules. Now time will tell, as with Sweden in Europe, which model actually worked best

 

In my State, there wasn't a total lockdown, local Mayors chose what to do. In my city, bars, hairdressers, schools, restaurants the usual suspects closed down, but business continued.

 

But, in general most people are abiding by social distancing and wearing masks. They stand on those marks at the supermarket checkout making sure you are 6ft apart.

 

As the bars and restaurant's slowly open up, things have changed. Last night we went out to dinner at our favorite restaurant. They have removed half the tables, all the wait staff wear masks.

 

My own feeling is that if you explain, as our Governor did, the facts, and ask people to act responsibly they generally do. 

 

When you start strong arming people, thats when they rebel

 

 

[vermin on arrival]

59 minutes ago, tlock said:

Agreed- different situations seem to require different solutions.  It certainly appears that island nations (other than SK those all seem to be islands) are able to efficiently contain this virus.  

 

Hk is not an island. It's a coastal city attached to mainland but different administration.

[tlock]

40 minutes ago, Sujo said:

True, they value it over everything whilst other countries understand that sometimes the greater good is to limit some freedoms to save lives.

 

Hows all the winning.

I think part of the general argument is which is for the greater good, saving more lives now weighed against the collateral damage of the lockdown and subsequent "new normal".  Internet memes notwithstanding, I don't think many people that are against the lockdown approach are nearly as selfish as the opposition wants to portray.  

 

My bad on HK.

 

[JensenZ]

7 hours ago, johnnybangkok said:

 Despite all the warnings over the years by the likes of the WHO, Bill Gates etc, it has become painful obvious The World and in turn individual countries were woefuly unprepared for this pandemic and have been caught completely by surprise (amazing when you consider we've gone through H1N1, Sars, MERS, Ebola etc). We can't cry over spilled milk now but the answer to an opening of the economy is already there IF sensible and knowledgable people are allowed to talk. And in the future hopefully countries will realise their mistake (and cost) in not preparing fully for pandemics and get much better prepared as you can be damn sure this is not going to be the first time we will see the likes of this again.   

With the exception of Taiwan, that did learn from the first SARS outbreak in 2002. They introduced laws and strict procedural guidelines way back in 2003, including one that required that all hospitals had to maintain a specific level of PPE stock and respirators. They heard about the problems in China before the WHO announced it through social media and sent people to Wuhan. With 7 deaths and 440 confirmed cases they proved how beneficial an early warning was.

[DeadBite]

Virology is becoming a hell of a business and influence, without having the scientific balls to earn such a recognition.

Can anyone post the best microscope image we have of a well known virus?

As far as I know, viruses cannot be isolated like bacteria and fungi. Therefore it could be that some diseases that we cannot categorize as bacterial, fungal etc. we categorize as viral.. an invisible unknown enemy, a kind of magic ????

[farang51]

To those arguing against a lockdown because it hurt the economy, read this:
https://arxiv.org/pdf/2005.04630.pdf

The link is to a scientific paper that compares the effect on consumer spending in Sweden and Denmark from March 11th to April 5th. In Sweden, consumers spend 25 per cent less than last year. In Denmark, consumers spend 29 per cent less. This demonstrates that you do not have a choice of a lockdown or a normal economy.

Of course, we do not know the full effect on the economy for some time, but it seems that Sweden is paying a high price in human lifes for a somewhat smaller contraction in spending.

[tlock]

9 minutes ago, farang51 said:

To those arguing against a lockdown because it hurt the economy, read this:
https://arxiv.org/pdf/2005.04630.pdf

The link is to a scientific paper that compares the effect on consumer spending in Sweden and Denmark from March 11th to April 5th. In Sweden, consumers spend 25 per cent less than last year. In Denmark, consumers spend 29 per cent less. This demonstrates that you do not have a choice of a lockdown or a normal economy.

Of course, we do not know the full effect on the economy for some time, but it seems that Sweden is paying a high price in human lifes for a somewhat smaller contraction in spending.

At this point I think the arguments are about what to do next time.  I agree that at this point we have locked down, lost millions of jobs, and most places are re-opening.  And I agree that even after re-opening we are unlikely to see the V-shaped recovery, we can't just "un-scare" everyone.  

 

And because currently we have a more or less global economy, individual countries decisions make less of an impact depending on their overall contribution to the world economy.  Meaning if only the US and China shut down, everyone's economies would suffer.  

 

I guess I consider it a discussion more than an argument...

 

[geriatrickid]

 

18 hours ago, JensenZ said:

However, a coronavirus vaccination has never been produced, so let's hope it works out. Did they produce an HIV vaccination in nearly 40 years and countless billions spent trying? NO!

The corona virus is not the same as  the human immunodeficiency virus. As such, they are quite different and this impacts treatment of infection and vaccine design.  HIV  attacks the  immune system, specifically CD4 cells. As these cells die off, the   body becomes vulnerable to opportunistic infections.   SARS Cov-2 causes the immune system to over react to an infection, in the lungs.  In plain language, one virus robs the body of an immune response and the other virus causes an over reaction.   It's like trying to compare anorexia and  morbid obesity. Both are mental illness induced, but that's where the illness similarities end.

 

BTW, there are corona virus vaccines that are available and that have been around for some time. Corona viruses come in different varieties. Some are gut related and others are respiratory related. Canine coronavirus disease (Ccov) is preventable by vaccine.  You would not be eating your pork products if not for the University of Saskatchewan, Canada's  advances in porcine  corona virus  vaccines . Vaccine for transmissible gastroenteritis virus (TGEV) has been available for decades. A vaccine for porcine epidemic diarrhea virus (PEDV) was introduced some years ago.  U of Sask was  fairly advanced in its research on 

a vaccine for  porcine respiratory CoV (PRCV).  The difference here is that  some advances have already been made in respect to some corona viruses. No real advance has been made in respect to HIV. This is due to their different mechanisms of infection, reproduction and  genome. This is why there is a n elevated likelihood of a corona respiratory virus vaccine.

 

13 hours ago, UbonThani said:

Still not high. In line with flu.

More nonsense. Do you really believe that anyone with an IQ over 90 will accept your nonsensical statement tossed out with the sole intent of misleading?

Which flu and over which time period?  If we take seasonal flu for this year, we see dramatic declines in the seasonal infection rate. The change is attributable to the Covid 19 prevention measures which are also effective against other respiratory infections and the common cold.