Best way to own land as a married couple

[mikemi]

Hi I will give you some backstory. I am married to a thai woman, we met in england, she was here as she had married another guy previously, but they split up. We had always planned to stay in england initially, but things changed blah blah. My wife has a piece of land, I suppose its like family land from a grandmother or something.

 

So, the land had previously rubber trees, but they were getting old and needed changing. I have always wanted to be a farmer, having worked on farms when I was in my 20s, so when the opportunity arose to get involved I was all for it, especially as it gives us an exit from the UK. Nobody else in the family really wanted to be involved with the land, they are up in bangkok doing other businesses, and those who did didnt have the money anyway to replace the rubber trees.

 

So, my wife paid (yes my wife, not me), for the rubber trees to be replaced with durian, and put in a watering system, couple of bore holes, pond dug, couple of little huts etc. This has all cost quite a lot, and I think when all is said and done it will be a roughly 60,000 gbp investment by the time we get to 2024, the year in which the durian should start to yield.

 

Currently, the land is not in my wife's name, but another family member. We are going to transfer it at some point but we are wondering how best to do this?

 

Personally, at the moment I dont feel as if I have any claim to anything. It is her and her families land from long before she met me, and my current investment is $0.00.

 

However, if we are going to put our lives into it, an invest further money, and perhaps more importantly lots of time, then I will feel like I have some claim on whatever we build in the coming decade or two.

 

Though we get on well now, you never know what can happen, people can change etc. So how best to make sure I can get something out in the future if we do split?

 

I have heard we can put the land in the wife's name and then she can give me a lease? or we can put it as a company with her as 51%?

 

And what about her leaving it to me in a will in case she goes first??

 

What should I do here?

 

 

 

 

[mr mr]

6 minutes ago, mikemi said:

and my current investment is $0.00.

i suggest this amount as your total investment. 

[Silent Number]

Your first priority is go to lands office in your province and get at least her name on the transfer paper then look at options that are available after that’s done .

[tribalfusion001]

Keep your money in the bank, it's safer there.

[mikemi]

11 minutes ago, Silent Number said:

Your first priority is go to lands office in your province and get at least her name on the transfer paper then look at options that are available after that’s done .

I guess the best way would be to use a loan/lien against the land, that increases over time to a maximum of 50%

 

Unless there are any laws that prevent thais from having to repay debts to farangs?

[wotsdermatter]

My first question would be, is she sure that her family member will definitely transfer the land now she has invested so much to upgrade everything?

'nuf sed.

[mikemi]

Just now, wotsdermatter said:

My first question would be, is she sure that her family member will definitely transfer the land now she has invested so much to upgrade everything?

'nuf sed.

yes the family member is loaded and is up in bangkok, hates farms

[CharlieH]

non English gibberish removed.

[northsouthdevide]

You will never own or even part own that land. 

It is not permitted under Thai law. 

I suspect that it is government land that is allocated to your wife's family. 

She could possibly get her name on the back of the document, but you will not be in the equation. 

By all means feel free to invest in developing the land for agriculture, but don't get it into your head that you'll sell it at a massive profit one day, because its likely that you won't. 

Durian is a good investment, if you look after the trees properly. 

But it all depends on future market value. 

At one time, everyone was rushing to plant rubber, but now they're changing to coffee because the price is low, due to taksim not subsidising the industry these days. 

Now everyone is looking to China to buy Dorian in the future. 

[mikemi]

10 minutes ago, northsouthdevide said:

You will never own or even part own that land. 

It is not permitted under Thai law. 

 

But it would be possible to loan, and secure the loan against the land, would it not?

[BritManToo]

Don't put your money in her business.

If her business plan is sound, a bank will lend her the money.

 

She's dumped one white husband, take that as an indication of future intent.

[mikemi]

26 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Don't put your money in her business.

If her business plan is sound, a bank will lend her the money.

 

She's dumped one white husband, take that as an indication of future intent.

What money? she isnt asking for money, she has more money than me lol

 

I am asking that if I put my life and time in there, how best to split our assets, if anybody knows a good way

[Bob A Kneale]

1 hour ago, mikemi said:

1 hour ago, northsouthdevide said:

You will never own or even part own that land. 

It is not permitted under Thai law. 

 

But it would be possible to loan, and secure the loan against the land, would it not?

Who are you thinking would be doing the borrowing, from whom, and for what purpose?   How would this lending help your position?

[Bob A Kneale]

17 minutes ago, mikemi said:

I am asking that if I put my life and time in there, how best to split our assets, if anybody knows a good way

The assets are (will be) hers, not yours, the land will never be allocated between you and her.

 

Even if she makes a will and you inherit, as a foreigner you can't keep the land, you will have one year to dispose of it.

 

Maybe she will just pay you half the value of the land if you ask nicely?

[mikemi]

3 minutes ago, Bob A Kneale said:

Who are you thinking would be doing the borrowing, from whom, and for what purpose?   How would this lending help your position?

Well, we are not sure exactly what we are going to do yet, as far as living arrangements. We could build on the farm, or buy somewhere local.

 

Currently, we are renting somewhere local, its so cheap we may stick with that.

 

But whatever we do, obviously over time, life consumes money even if we dont buy/build a house.

 

I just want to make sure if we split, then we do so 50/50 on whatever we have at that time.

 

As I said I dont feel like I have any claim on the farm at the moment, after 10/20/30 years of work, I am sure I would feel differently.

 

So, in order to have a claim, would it not be possible so have a lien secured against any assets in thailand that were actionable on the lien holders request?

 

Even if you dont own the land, surely you can still own a lien of a specified value?

[mikemi]

2 minutes ago, Bob A Kneale said:

The assets are (will be) hers, not yours, the land will never be allocated between you and her.

 

Even if she makes a will and you inherit, as a foreigner you can't keep the land, you will have one year to dispose of it.

 

Maybe she will just pay you half the value of the land if you ask nicely?

I would imagine so, but you never know how people can change over time, do you?

 

 

[ratcatcher]

46 minutes ago, mikemi said:

What money? she isnt asking for money, she has more money than me lol

You didn't mention the size of the land she has under durian. It sounds as if you have visions of being a farmer. You will be, as a friend of mine once said, "A gentleman farmer". Will your wife still finance the property from her own funds? What kind of work do you envision doing on the "farm"?  Is your wife a farmer in the true sense of the word? Hands on, everything from planting, pruning, irrigation, sale etc etc? Good luck anyway.  

[KhaoYai]

2 hours ago, mikemi said:

But it would be possible to loan, and secure the loan against the land, would it not?

Yes, that is possible and must be registered with the local Land Office. However, you need to get someone to check with the local office as to whether they will accept a foreign mortgage or not. Its not against the law in Thailand but as usual, the local offices make their own rules up.

 

Refusal comes in many shapes and forms and may vary according to who you talk to - that is why I say 'get someone to check'. I would suggest you get a friendly solicitor to do that and if you go ahead, prepare the documents.  If your wife enquires and talks to the wrong person, she might get refused out of jealousy or just plain racism. As I say, foreign mortgages are not against the law but it depends on the office, who is spoken to and who speaks to them. If you can find a solicitor who regularly deals with your local Land Office, you are more likely to get a favourable answer.

 

Be aware of the loan to value that is likely to be acceptable - that's another thing they seem to make up as they go along but you can be sure that you're never going to have a 5 million loan accepted against land valued at 6 million. As a rough guide - 50% LTV is usually accepted but that's against their valuation, not yours.

[Starmocihc]

Do whatever you'd like and have fun doing it, but keep your personal investments to things which you can load up and leave with. In the event that something untimely happens to her or your cohabitation, you'll only be able to recover that which you can load up and leave with. As many have already stated, do not invest anything in the land that you're not prepared to lose 100% of.

[KhaoYai]

5 hours ago, mikemi said:

I have always wanted to be a farmer, having worked on farms when I was in my 20s, so when the opportunity arose to get involved I was all for it

Unless the fruit you are tending or picking is solely for your or your immediate family's consumption, you won't be 'getting involved' with any farming activity in Thailand. Agricultural work by foreigners is expressly forbidden.

[Mulambana]

1 hour ago, mikemi said:

I am asking that if I put my life and time in there, how best to split our assets, if anybody knows a good way

Need a work permit put a your life and time there. Go to the nearest labor office and ty to get a work permit first (I doubt if you will get it), otherwise, instead of splitting the assets you may end up in Thai jail alone. 

[mikemi]

28 minutes ago, ratcatcher said:

You didn't mention the size of the land she has under durian. It sounds as if you have visions of being a farmer. You will be, as a friend of mine once said, "A gentleman farmer". Will your wife still finance the property from her own funds? What kind of work do you envision doing on the "farm"?  Is your wife a farmer in the true sense of the word? Hands on, everything from planting, pruning, irrigation, sale etc etc? Good luck anyway.  

I imagine I will not be doing lots and lots, but I would like to do a couple of hours work a day. But I just let them all get on with it they know what they are doing.

 

We know quite a few people in the area who run durian farms, both neighbours do durian too. They are getting quite a range of incomes, but all are enough for thailand imo. I am not a big spender. We know a guy with 90 young durian who this year has got 700,000 baht for his crop. And we know someone with 30 rai of well maintained mature durian who got 10 million last year. Ours will be somewhere in between these numbers.

 

These numbers do not include costs, this is what they were paid for their fruit by the wholesalers. There are of course running costs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[sead]

forget all about lease etc etc. A lease is only valid until she transfers the land to another name etc etc. If you want to be safe with your investment then make a loan to her. 

[Banana7]

First step is to get the land into her name. Second step is to create a company, where you own 49% and she owns 49% and 2% by another Thai, recommended by your lawyer. Then have the shareholders appoint you, irrevocably, as the managing director and president. Next, transfer the land to the company, and all chattels, buildings, assets on the land to the company.

[torturedsole]

2 hours ago, mikemi said:

I am asking that if I put my life and time in there, how best to split our assets, if anybody knows a good way

What assets?  You've already stated that your investment is zero but suddenly your investment is your soul. 

 

Expect to lose all investments in LOS and once you're comfortable with heavy losses then ... erm, enjoy your life.  

[mikemi]

19 minutes ago, torturedsole said:

What assets?  You've already stated that your investment is zero but suddenly your investment is your soul. 

 

Expect to lose all investments in LOS and once you're comfortable with heavy losses then ... erm, enjoy your life.  

at the moment i havent invested time or money, but over the next 20 years i probably will, in some form

 

maybe it will be a house, maybe it will be another piece of land, who knows

 

but i dont agree with you at all about being made to lose anything. It is possible to control an asset without owning it. It will be some form of loan, or as the other guy said as a mortgage secured against X

 

for example, if i buy a house it can go in my wife's name, but she owes me 50% of the value as a loan that i can call in if we split, and the loan is secured against the house. So she either pays me 50% of the value, or the house gets sold.

[torturedsole]

16 minutes ago, mikemi said:

for example, if i buy a house it can go in my wife's name, but she owes me 50% of the value as a loan that i can call in if we split, and the loan is secured against the house. So she either pays me 50% of the value, or the house gets sold.

Good luck with all that, brother.  

[RichardColeman]

Please, please , please , don;t tell me this will involve selling your UK property

[thainet]

12 minutes ago, mikemi said:

at the moment i havent invested time or money, but over the next 20 years i probably will, in some form

 

maybe it will be a house, maybe it will be another piece of land, who knows

 

but i dont agree with you at all about being made to lose anything. It is possible to control an asset without owning it. It will be some form of loan, or as the other guy said as a mortgage secured against X

 

for example, if i buy a house it can go in my wife's name, but she owes me 50% of the value as a loan that i can call in if we split, and the loan is secured against the house. So she either pays me 50% of the value, or the house gets sold.

You are asking many questions here, but you are obviously very uninformed of what is possible in Thailand, or have not done much research.

#1..as others have said...without her name being on the title deed (Chanoot), then you haven't got any security at all (or has she for that matter).

#2..very very doubtful that any bank will give you a loan..so that is not really an option.

#3..In Thailand the Chanoot covers the land only. The Land Office are only concerned with the appraised price as it's value is used for tax purposes. So the only way to do this is have the Land Office register a mortgage (you and her choose the figure) which is actually recorded on the Chanoot. In this way she can not sell the land legally without you signing off that the mortgage has been paid off (this is probably the only legal way for a foreigner).

 

BUT, if you are really worried about this is 5, 19, 20 years, then I suggest you definitely have a rethink. This is a very complicated area for the uninitiated, and you, as so many others, can get burned easily. 

[mikemi]

25 minutes ago, thainet said:

You are asking many questions here, but you are obviously very uninformed of what is possible in Thailand, or have not done much research.

#1..as others have said...without her name being on the title deed (Chanoot), then you haven't got any security at all (or has she for that matter).

#2..very very doubtful that any bank will give you a loan..so that is not really an option.

#3..In Thailand the Chanoot covers the land only. The Land Office are only concerned with the appraised price as it's value is used for tax purposes. So the only way to do this is have the Land Office register a mortgage (you and her choose the figure) which is actually recorded on the Chanoot. In this way she can not sell the land legally without you signing off that the mortgage has been paid off (this is probably the only legal way for a foreigner).

 

BUT, if you are really worried about this is 5, 19, 20 years, then I suggest you definitely have a rethink. This is a very complicated area for the uninitiated, and you, as so many others, can get burned easily. 

well the idea is that nobody gets burned, isnt it. hence the thread.

 

Are you saying that foreigners cant create contracts in thailand? or cant give loans?

 

I buy a house for 100k or whatever. I own a lien on the house for 50k, or my wife owes me 50k via contract to be paid whenever I see fit.

 

So she has the house and is 100k up, but she owes me 50k.

 

The contract will stipulate settlement terms. It would say something like, in the event of separation the owed money is to be paid within 1 year or the house is to be sold via a named firm of solicitors via public auction, proceeds to be split 50/50.

 

As far as I can see, so long as foreigners can enter into contracts in thai law, then why doesnt this method work?

 

Can we have a bit more thinking, and a bit less of the usual "its thailand you will lose everything " because I find it really childish, repetitive, and most of all ignorant.

 

Is there any law that prevents such a contract from being created?