Video of Floyd's death offers clues into ex-Minneapolis officers' possible defense, say legal experts

[webfact]

Video of Floyd's death offers clues into ex-Minneapolis officers' possible defense, say legal experts

By Tom Hals

 

FILE PHOTO: Former Minnesota police officer Thomas Lane poses in a combination of booking photographs at Hennepin County Jail in Minneapolis, Minnesota, U.S. June 3, 2020. Hennepin County Sheriff's Office/Handout via REUTERS

 

(Reuters) - The video of George Floyd's death offers clues into how three former Minneapolis police officers charged with aiding and abetting his murder could defend themselves, from saying they didn't know excessive force was used to deferring to a senior officer, according to some legal experts.

 

A judge set bail of $1 million on Thursday for Tuo Thao, Thomas Lane and J. Alexander Kueng. The three men were with Derek Chauvin, the officer charged with second-degree murder after being recorded by a bystander kneeling on the neck of the 46-year old https://www.reuters.com/article/us-minneapolis-police-protests/he-touched-so-many-hearts-george-floyd-remembered-at-memorial-service-idUSKBN23B1LX African American for nearly nine minutes during his May 25 arrest.

 

The video touched off global protests against police brutality, but it also provides a window into possible defenses in court, seven legal experts interviewed by Reuters said.

 

People are usually charged with aiding and abetting when they actively encourage a crime or participate directly, such as driving a get-away car.

 

"Here, however, you have police who are duty bound to help/protect their fellow officer," said Kurt Weinmann, an attorney with Garbarini & Scher. "To charge them you’d have to show they knew or should have known he was acting with excessive force."

 

According to court documents, Thao watched as Chauvin placed his knee on Floyd's neck, then turned to keep the crowd from getting too close.

 

Weinmann said Thao appears focused on controlling the growing crowd, as he is trained to do, and said prosecutors face a challenge of convicting him for failing to monitor Chauvin's level of force.

 

"Expecting an officer to do that would be asking him to go against all of his instincts and usual practice," Weinmann said.

 

Lawyers for Thao, Lane and Kueng did not respond to requests for comment. The officers were fired from the Minneapolis police department along with Chauvin.

 

The president of the police officers' union https://www.reuters.com/article/us-minneapolis-police-culture-specialrep/special-report-how-union-supreme-court-shield-minneapolis-cops-idUSKBN23B2LL, Bob Kroll, said in a letter to union members on Monday that the four "were terminated without due process" and he was working with the union’s labor attorneys to get them reinstated.

 

After Floyd's arrest, the officers briefly tried to put him in a squad car, but he refused and said he was claustrophobic, according to court documents.

 

After a struggle, Chauvin pulled Floyd to the ground while handcuffed, the court documents said.

 

Lane and Kueng helped hold Floyd down while Chauvin kneeled on Floyd's neck, but the legal experts said they still had defenses, particularly Lane.

 

Soon after Floyd is pinned down, Lane asked Chauvin if they should roll Floyd on his side, and was told "no," according to court documents.

 

Lane also said he was worried that Floyd was suffering from excited delirium, an agitated condition.

 

"The case against Lane will be the toughest for the prosecution because the defense will say he actively tried to help Mr. Floyd by urging Chauvin to turn Floyd over at least twice," said Paul Callan, a former New York City homicide prosecutor.

 

Lane's attorney told the court on Thursday his client was following his training officer's orders and "he was doing everything he thought he was supposed to do."

 

Kueng held Floyd's back during the arrest, according to court documents, and may face the toughest case, partly because he remained silent during the arrest, the legal experts said.

 

They said Kueng will likely try to argue he was unaware of the extent of the force that Chauvin was using and could not determine Floyd's condition until it was too late.

 

Both Kueng and Lane were relatively junior officers, which also could work in their favor.

 

"They will say they weren't willing to go against the chain of command," said Joseph Friedberg, a defense attorney.

 

(Reporting by Tom Hals in Wilmington, Delaware; Editing by Noeleen Walder and Grant McCool)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2020-06-05

 

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[Kelsall]

If any of these men get off, it will be like the Rodney King situation.  They will be brought up and convicted on federal charges.

[MaxYakov]

There apparently is an attempt to sacrifice some of these officers that didn't really deserve to be, AFAIC. Maybe there are "systemic" issues other than the racism claimed by what amounts to a lynch mob? I hope the all get fair trials.

[smedly]

why was George Floyd arrested - does he have a rap sheet - is he a career criminal

 

Not judging what went on during his arrest - it was obviously excessive, the media are making this man out to be a saint, I don't know the answer which is why I'm asking

[Olmate]

9 minutes ago, smedly said:

why was George Floyd arrested - does he have a rap sheet - is he a career criminal

 

Not judging what went on during his arrest - it was obviously excessive, the media are making this man out to be a saint, I don't know the answer which is why I'm asking

Yes he did,2009 did 5 yrs assault n robbery with a gun,later offences with violence,caught for passing fake cash on this occasion

[scorecard]

OK their lawyers are going to try anything to get them cleared, usual stuff.

 

However seems to me they had a duty to monitor whats' happening to the arrested person, and a duty to speak up if they have any concern about overuse of force of whatever, to monitor that they (all of them) are operating with the law and speak up if they have concerns, and monitor what's happening around them*.

 

(*In regard to the last point, in the videos i've seen doesn't seem to be any indication there is any threat at all to any of the 3 cops from bystanders etc.)

 

IMHO if a cop can't do all of that he/she shouldn't be a cop. 

[thaibeachlovers]

9 minutes ago, smedly said:

why was George Floyd arrested - does he have a rap sheet - is he a career criminal

 

Not judging what went on during his arrest - it was obviously excessive, the media are making this man out to be a saint, I don't know the answer which is why I'm asking

According to which side one listens to he was a wonderful human being or a career criminal.

Amongst the uproar it's pretty impossible to decide without having known him personally.

All I know is that the police department's training and /or procedures were obviously deficient. There should be standard procedures to follow in any situation, and kneeling on someone's neck should not be among them.

However, nothing justifies burning property and rioting, PERIOD.

[thaibeachlovers]

15 minutes ago, scorecard said:

OK their lawyers are going to try anything to get them cleared, usual stuff.

 

However seems to me they had a duty to monitor whats' happening to the arrested person, and a duty to speak up if they have any concern about overuse of force of whatever, to monitor that they (all of them) are operating with the law and speak up if they have concerns, and monitor what's happening around them*.

 

(*In regard to the last point, in the videos i've seen doesn't seem to be any indication there is any threat at all to any of the 3 cops from bystanders etc.)

 

IMHO if a cop can't do all of that he/she shouldn't be a cop. 

Ever been a cop? Ever served in the military?

It doesn't work like that in real life, and far as I know, Utopia is a myth.

Edited June 5, 2020 by thaibeachlovers

[robblok]

20 minutes ago, smedly said:

why was George Floyd arrested - does he have a rap sheet - is he a career criminal

 

Not judging what went on during his arrest - it was obviously excessive, the media are making this man out to be a saint, I don't know the answer which is why I'm asking

Yes he had a rap sheet only they did not know that at the time of the arrest so it has nothing to do with it. Only what happend at the time had anything to do with his death. 

 

He was arrested for passing a fake note.. and it turned out to be untrue. 

Edited June 5, 2020 by robblok

[TopDeadSenter]

12 minutes ago, smedly said:

why was George Floyd arrested - does he have a rap sheet - is he a career criminal

 

Not judging what went on during his arrest - it was obviously excessive, the media are making this man out to be a saint, I don't know the answer which is why I'm asking

 

“What is not being told is the violent criminal history of George Floyd. The media will not air this,” police union president Bob Kroll told his members in a letter posted Monday on Twitter.

Floyd had landed five years behind bars in 2009 for an assault and robbery two years earlier, and before that, had been convicted of charges ranging from theft with a firearm to drugs"

https://nypost.com/2020/06/02/george-floyd-had-violent-criminal-history-minneapolis-union-chief/

 

So yes, as a violent career criminal he does seem an unlikely choice for beatification. I guess as per the above, if his terrible record is ignored, then maybe he can be thought of as a hero by the naive.

 

 As per the defense of the cops. Having watched the video showing a disturbance inside the police car before he was dragged out and killed, I wonder what was happening there. Now we know Floyd had coronavirus, and cared nothing about infecting the public(such a hero!), it is not beyond belief that he threatened the police or actually spat at an officer while bragging he had the virus. That would have led to his being dragged out and pinned like he was. Oh well, I guess this will all come out in the trial with dashcam video support. IMO the 4 cops will walk, and the antifa/black community will again burn down America in a tantrum.

[robblok]

1 minute ago, TopDeadSenter said:

 

“What is not being told is the violent criminal history of George Floyd. The media will not air this,” police union president Bob Kroll told his members in a letter posted Monday on Twitter.

Floyd had landed five years behind bars in 2009 for an assault and robbery two years earlier, and before that, had been convicted of charges ranging from theft with a firearm to drugs"

https://nypost.com/2020/06/02/george-floyd-had-violent-criminal-history-minneapolis-union-chief/

 

So yes, as a violent career criminal he does seem an unlikely choice for beatification. I guess as per the above, if his terrible record is ignored, then maybe he can be thought of as a hero by the naive.

 

 As per the defense of the cops. Having watched the video showing a disturbance inside the police car before he was dragged out and killed, I wonder what was happening there. Now we know Floyd had coronavirus, and cared nothing about infecting the public(such a hero!), it is not beyond belief that he threatened the police or actually spat at an officer while bragging he had the virus. That would have led to his being dragged out and pinned like he was. Oh well, I guess this will all come out in the trial with dashcam video support. IMO the 4 cops will walk, and the antifa/black community will again burn down America in a tantrum.

career criminal or not.. does not matter only thing that matters is what happened at that time. The guy is no saint and he probably deserved punishment for crimes but that is not up to the police and certainly not a death penalty as what happened now.

 

So it really does not matter all that matters is if excessive force was applied or not. 

[TopDeadSenter]

8 minutes ago, robblok said:

Yes he had a rap sheet only they did not know that at the time of the arrest so it has nothing to do with it.

Do you have a citation to back up your claim that the 4 officers did not know of Floyd's violent criminal past? As we know, Chauvin actually worked the door at the same nightclub that Floyd did, so the likelihood these 2 knew of each other is high. I suspect as a career criminal Floyd was very well known to local police and stores. Every town has such characters.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/derek-chauvin-nightclub-george-floyd-security-shifts-el-nuevo-rodeo-minneapolis/

[Olmate]

8 minutes ago, robblok said:

career criminal or not.. does not matter only thing that matters is what happened at that time. The guy is no saint and he probably deserved punishment for crimes but that is not up to the police and certainly not a death penalty as what happened now.

 

So it really does not matter all that matters is if excessive force was applied or not. 

“Excessive in the circumstances” is what is important.

[robblok]

1 minute ago, TopDeadSenter said:

Do you have a citation to back up your claim that the 4 officers did not know of Floyd's violent criminal past? As we know, Chauvin actually worked the door at the same nightclub that Floyd did, so the likelihood these 2 knew of each other is high. I suspect as a career criminal Floyd was very well known to local police and stores. Every town has such characters.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/derek-chauvin-nightclub-george-floyd-security-shifts-el-nuevo-rodeo-minneapolis/

You suspect..  ok seems proven.

 

Normally an arrest means that they look a guy up AFTER they have secured him. 

[scorecard]

10 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Ever been a cop? Ever served in the military?

It doesn't work like that in real life, and far as  know, Utopia is a myth.

I spent several years in the military including in an active war zone, the army from my country expects and demands what I wrote above, nothing less.

 

I had to give evidence at a court martial of an officer who was breaking army regulations and national and international laws. 

 

He was represented by both military and civilian lawyers and he was convicted, and none of his lawyers nor the judge panel mentioned that in a real situation the laws/regulations are 'flexible'. 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

11 minutes ago, robblok said:

career criminal or not.. does not matter only thing that matters is what happened at that time. The guy is no saint and he probably deserved punishment for crimes but that is not up to the police and certainly not a death penalty as what happened now.

 

So it really does not matter all that matters is if excessive force was applied or not. 

only thing that matters is what happened at that time.

 

Exactly. We are not being told what happened PRIOR to him being pinned on the ground. Even cops are human beings and react to circumstances in ways that they may not do in calmer situations.

Hopefully the FACTS will come out in court.

Edited June 5, 2020 by thaibeachlovers

[robblok]

1 minute ago, Olmate said:

“Excessive in the circumstances” is what is important.

Of course it depends on circumstances, that is always so when they are talking about excessive force. If your fighting all the time you can expect to be treated different then when you work with the police. However this guy was hardly fighting and he was already lying on his belly cuffed for a while with an officer putting a knee on him. Nothing showed that this was needed for so long. I hope the cop gets punished. As for the other cop who was directing traffic its quite possible he was not aware. 

[scorecard]

4 minutes ago, TopDeadSenter said:

Do you have a citation to back up your claim that the 4 officers did not know of Floyd's violent criminal past? As we know, Chauvin actually worked the door at the same nightclub that Floyd did, so the likelihood these 2 knew of each other is high. I suspect as a career criminal Floyd was very well known to local police and stores. Every town has such characters.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/derek-chauvin-nightclub-george-floyd-security-shifts-el-nuevo-rodeo-minneapolis/

"... 'career criminal'.., and 'I suspect as a career criminal Floyd was very well known to local police and stores'...."

 

Wow, giant assumptions.

 

Not fair, you ever wonder why black Americans are screaming for justice?

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, scorecard said:

I spent several years in the military including in an active war zone, the army from my country expects and demands what I wrote above, nothing less.

 

I had to give evidence at a court martial of an officer who was breaking army regulations and national and international laws. 

 

He was represented by both military and civilian lawyers and he was convicted, and none of his lawyers nor the judge panel mentioned that in a real situation the laws/regulations are 'flexible'. 

 

Fair enough, but apparently your time in service was different from mine.

[thaibeachlovers]

3 minutes ago, scorecard said:

"... 'career criminal'.., and 'I suspect as a career criminal Floyd was very well known to local police and stores'...."

 

Wow, giant assumptions.

 

Not fair, you ever wonder why black Americans are screaming for justice?

 

 

White Americans also get a raw deal from the cops, but no one ever seems to go out rioting every time a white guy gets killed by them.

Seems to me the real reason this is so ramped up is for political reasons, and we all ( I hope ) know what those political reasons are.

It's gone from a local police action to a nationwide ( and even world wide ) attack on Trump. Far as I know he wasn't in the vicinity at the time.

 

Edited June 5, 2020 by thaibeachlovers

[scorecard]

Just now, thaibeachlovers said:

White Americans also get a raw deal from the cops, but no one ever seems to go out rioting every time a white guy gets killed by them.

 

Sure, so why don't they demand fair justice?

 

Actually your post is just a weak attempt to deflect from the case at hand.

[MaxYakov]

39 minutes ago, robblok said:

42 minutes ago, TopDeadSenter said:

 

“What is not being told is the violent criminal history of George Floyd. The media will not air this,” police union president Bob Kroll told his members in a letter posted Monday on Twitter.

Floyd had landed five years behind bars in 2009 for an assault and robbery two years earlier, and before that, had been convicted of charges ranging from theft with a firearm to drugs"

https://nypost.com/2020/06/02/george-floyd-had-violent-criminal-history-minneapolis-union-chief/

 

So yes, as a violent career criminal he does seem an unlikely choice for beatification. I guess as per the above, if his terrible record is ignored, then maybe he can be thought of as a hero by the naive.

 

 As per the defense of the cops. Having watched the video showing a disturbance inside the police car before he was dragged out and killed, I wonder what was happening there. Now we know Floyd had coronavirus, and cared nothing about infecting the public(such a hero!), it is not beyond belief that he threatened the police or actually spat at an officer while bragging he had the virus. That would have led to his being dragged out and pinned like he was. Oh well, I guess this will all come out in the trial with dashcam video support. IMO the 4 cops will walk, and the antifa/black community will again burn down America in a tantrum.

career criminal or not.. does not matter only thing that matters is what happened at that time. The guy is no saint and he probably deserved punishment for crimes but that is not up to the police and certainly not a death penalty as what happened now.

So that's all that matters, huh? It doesn't matter that a drug-addicted, coronavirus-infected ex-con decided to drive around that day and got snagged by the police and then resisted arrest. Fve lives have probably been destroyed, depending on the outcome of the trials of these police officers.

 

Throw in the killings and injuries of several including law enforcement officers and others and property destruction that has occurred over this under the guise of "peaceful protests" and we have a tragedy that goes far beyond the death of George Floyd. The crimes committed by the mobs and the wanton destruction far exceeds the crimes that may have been committed by these cops. The death of George Floyd was obviously a trigger to a tsunami of crimes of death and destruction.

 

 

 

Edited June 5, 2020 by MaxYakov

[Orton Rd]

6 minutes ago, scorecard said:

"... 'career criminal'.., and 'I suspect as a career criminal Floyd was very well known to local police and stores'...."

 

Wow, giant assumptions.

 

Not fair, you ever wonder why black Americans are screaming for justice?

 

 

Not assumptions, he served 5 years for violent crime, had meth and fentanyl in his system and can be seen dropping bags of white powder during the arrest where he was aprehended for another crime. Cops have a hard time dealing with agressive low lifes everyday, not an excuse for neck restraight, might have been better to have tasered the saint.

Edited June 5, 2020 by Orton Rd

[TopDeadSenter]

7 minutes ago, robblok said:

You suspect..  ok seems proven.

 

Normally an arrest means that they look a guy up AFTER they have secured him. 

? That is not how it works. You stated as FACT that the cops did not know about Floyd's past. Now it's time to back up your statement, or retract of it was just something you made up on the spur of the moment. This is a very important point, as it could have direct relevance to police actions.

 

robblok post no.9 from about 10 minutes ago. "Yes he had a rap sheet only they did not know that at the time of the arrest so it has nothing to do with it."

 

 

[robblok]

2 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

White Americans also get a raw deal from the cops, but no one ever seems to go out rioting every time a white guy gets killed by them.

 

Just look at the statistics of how many unarmed whites and how many unarmed blacks are shot. Shows the difference of treatment in racist America. 

 

I get it for people who pose a threat, but unarmed.. that is a different ball game. Being a cop in the US is not easy but there are bad apples and those just need to be punished.

 

Cesario cites often in his own study, also focuses on police shooting-killings in 2015, when police killed nearly twice as many white people that year (495) than they did black people (258). But 15 percent of the black people police killed that year were unarmed, compared with just 6 percent of white people who were unarmed when killed by police.

https://www.citylab.com/equity/2019/08/police-officer-shootings-gun-violence-racial-bias-crime-data/595528/

[thaibeachlovers]

3 minutes ago, scorecard said:

Sure, so why don't they demand fair justice?

 

Actually your post is just a weak attempt to deflect from the case at hand.

Actually I'm trying to be rational about the case. He wasn't the first black man to be killed by the cops and he won't be the last, also white guys are killed by the cops, apparently in greater numbers. The only reason that I can see to make this case "special" is to use it to attack Trump over.

[thaibeachlovers]

Just now, robblok said:

Being a cop in the US is not easy but there are bad apples and those just need to be punished.

No argument there.

[smedly]

29 minutes ago, TopDeadSenter said:

 

“What is not being told is the violent criminal history of George Floyd. The media will not air this,” police union president Bob Kroll told his members in a letter posted Monday on Twitter.

Floyd had landed five years behind bars in 2009 for an assault and robbery two years earlier, and before that, had been convicted of charges ranging from theft with a firearm to drugs"

https://nypost.com/2020/06/02/george-floyd-had-violent-criminal-history-minneapolis-union-chief/

 

So yes, as a violent career criminal he does seem an unlikely choice for beatification. I guess as per the above, if his terrible record is ignored, then maybe he can be thought of as a hero by the naive.

 

 As per the defense of the cops. Having watched the video showing a disturbance inside the police car before he was dragged out and killed, I wonder what was happening there. Now we know Floyd had coronavirus, and cared nothing about infecting the public(such a hero!), it is not beyond belief that he threatened the police or actually spat at an officer while bragging he had the virus. That would have led to his being dragged out and pinned like he was. Oh well, I guess this will all come out in the trial with dashcam video support. IMO the 4 cops will walk, and the antifa/black community will again burn down America in a tantrum.

interesting - didn't know any of that, I assumed since the massive public outrage he was an innocent victim and a lovely family man - evidently not

 

Of course the cop with his foot on his neck was excessive in terms of time, once retrained in cuffs and possibly other retrains he was no longer a risk and should have been allowed to at least sit up

[MyTHaiMyKe]

57 minutes ago, Kelsall said:

If any of these men get off, it will be like the Rodney King situation.  They will be brought up and convicted on federal charges.

There will never be a trial! Where are they going to find a jury? Mars? The whole jury pool is tainted! No person in the USA or any other country in the world, can say that they have not scene the video, or have formed an opinion on this case! Therefore you can have NO fair trial! Now they have overcharged, which will be the prosecutions down fall.

[sweatalot]

59 minutes ago, MaxYakov said:

There apparently is an attempt to sacrifice some of these officers that didn't really deserve to be, AFAIC. Maybe there are "systemic" issues other than the racism claimed by what amounts to a lynch mob? I hope the all get fair trials.

What about fair trial for Floyd?