New Zealand city takes down statue of British navy commander

[Lacessit]

Why not do something constructive instead? Don't take them down, put an equivalent size statue of an individual or race they oppressed beside them.

The Valley of the Fallen outside Madrid is an example. Franco is buried under a giant cross there, side-by-side with a Communist opponent he had executed.

[soalbundy]

15 hours ago, Orton Rd said:

Maori killed those there before them, waged constant war tribe against tribe and were cannibals at times. Hamilton has a museum completely dedicated to these savages and you can't take photo's because it goes against their beliefs. We civilised the place and have nothing to be ashamed of, statue should have been left. What next renaming Wellington after some ghastly Maori chief?

Bomber Harris your plinth is rocking

[thaibeachlovers]

11 minutes ago, somtamgaiyang said:

And, of course, at least in the US, schools are not above white washing more problematic aspects of our history. 

I thought education now ( in the west ) is more about social justice ( whatever that means at the time ) and protesting about climate change than actually learning things needed to get a job.

[joecoolfrog]

I find it hilarious that any local thinks  taking down a statue of the man will change anything. Is Hamilton now to be refered to as the town with no name ?

[thaibeachlovers]

24 minutes ago, Orton Rd said:

For those who have never been there Hamilton is quite an ugly dump, apart from the gardens and walk along by the river. Hamilton would probably not want to be associated with it anyway.

I lived there for 5 years. It's so lacking in any character at all that I don't even think about it.

[connda]

To be honest, statues are one of those weird things that the elite love to engage in.  Raising statues in honor of "special people."  Then they become the home of pigeons, bird poop, and corrosion. 
When they come down, you know that you're experiencing a change in culture and society.  Of course, the new culture will then engage in raising statues for their elite "heros."  Wash, rinse, repeat...

[JCauto]

16 hours ago, Orton Rd said:

Maori killed those there before them, waged constant war tribe against tribe and were cannibals at times. Hamilton has a museum completely dedicated to these savages and you can't take photo's because it goes against their beliefs. We civilised the place and have nothing to be ashamed of, statue should have been left. What next renaming Wellington after some ghastly Maori chief?

Seems you have gotten lost despite your geographic moniker. You should have taken a right, oh, about 100 years ago or so. 

I'd start looking to source some old Deloreans if I were you. It's the only way you're going to find your way back to Orton Rd. Watch out for those Libyans you get the nuclear material from!

[transam]

4 minutes ago, connda said:

To be honest, statues are one of those weird things that the elite love to engage in.  Raising statues in honor of "special people."  Then they become the home of pigeons, bird poop, and corrosion. 
When they come down, you know that you're experiencing a change in culture and society.  Of course, the new culture will then engage in raising statues for their elite "heros."  Wash, rinse, repeat...

Yes, a huge statue of an iPhone battery charger, perhaps, or even a BigMac...Well if the low-life get their way, anything is possible eh...????

[ratcatcher]

2 hours ago, Benmart said:

Take down every statue, every flag, every building, every object however remotely associated with some misdeed, atrocity or word. Bulldoze the ground upon which walked the wicked.

Burn the books, the photos and obliterate history that contains even the most minute particle of discomfort. Then recreate a new history, designed by those who would put shackles on the minds of those who supported such folly.

It may be too late to turn the tide on this latest of all witch-hunts. Which is next? Social media?

   What a good idea. Start again.

 

 

[JensenZ]

6 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I bet not a one of them complaining about the evils of colonialism is willing to give land they paid for back to the Maoris.

The problem is with people who justify it as some kind of moral obligation of so called "civilized" countries to impose their moralities on the rest of the world. What happened happened and there's no going back. All you need to do is stop apologizing for it and see it for what it really was - A colonial land grab that considered any indigenous people as collateral damage.

[ratcatcher]

So far, at least, the statue of Captain James Cook in Waimea, Kauai, Hawaii has been spared the ire of the natives. Perhaps they have more sense, after all, it was they who killed him. 

[Kiwiken]

Sadly how quickly they forget Before the Colonists got there they had rampant tribal War. North island Maori wiping Out the southern tribes. The North island Maori going to the Chatham islands and slaughtered the Mori Ori. And then the damn British Come and put a stop to it all. 

Colonialism has not always been good but the Inter tribal war and Cannibalism was stopped.

We have a long way to go but tearing down Statues and pretending History never happened instead of telling the truth does not benefit anyone.

[Rimmer]

Some troll posts removed

[evadgib]

16 hours ago, Orton Rd said:

Maori killed those there before them, waged constant war tribe against tribe and were cannibals at times. Hamilton has a museum completely dedicated to these savages and you can't take photo's because it goes against their beliefs. We civilised the place and have nothing to be ashamed of, statue should have been left. What next renaming Wellington after some ghastly Maori chief?

...or chefs no longer being able to....Cook?

[evadgib]

43 minutes ago, joecoolfrog said:

I find it hilarious that any local thinks  taking down a statue of the man will change anything. Is Hamilton now to be refered to as the town with no name ?

There's a Hastings there too I believe. Given what happened to the original in 1066 can we expect Esther Ratzen to have a pop at that too, especially as she's taken all their guns?

Edited June 13, 2020 by evadgib

[Orton Rd]

39 minutes ago, JCauto said:

Seems you have gotten lost despite your geographic moniker. You should have taken a right, oh, about 100 years ago or so. 

I'd start looking to source some old Deloreans if I were you. It's the only way you're going to find your way back to Orton Rd. Watch out for those Libyans you get the nuclear material from!

Might take a while to work out what this means ????

[Bluespunk]

1 hour ago, DPKANKAN said:

Are they going to change the name of their  town/city as well then???????????????????????????????????

I truly hope so. 

[Krataiboy]

1 hour ago, JensenZ said:

The British didn't go to New Zealand to make the Maoris "civilized", but to grab land for settlers, at a huge cost to both sides:

 

The New Zealand wars:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_Wars

 

At the peak of hostilities in the 1860s, 18,000 British troops, supported by artillery, cavalry and local militia, battled about 4,000 Māori warriors^[8] in what became a gross imbalance of manpower and weaponry.^[9] Although outnumbered, the Māori were able to withstand their enemy with techniques that included anti-artillery bunkers and the use of carefully placed pā, or fortified villages, that allowed them to block their enemy's advance and often inflict heavy losses, yet quickly abandon their positions without significant loss. Guerrilla-style tactics were used by both sides in later campaigns, often fought in dense bush. Over the course of the Taranaki and Waikato campaigns, the lives of about 1,800 Māori and 800 Europeans were lost,^[5] and total Māori losses over the course of all the wars may have exceeded 2,100.

 

It is not the job of colonial powers to interfere with the way of life of indigenous populations or force their moralities upon them. If they chose to eat their enemies after they were conquered in battle, it's their way of life and their business.

 

But at the end of the day, the British didn't go to New Zealand to help Maoris. They were there to grab land and do whatever it took to achieve that purpose. The Maoris were collateral damage. There was absolutely nothing altruistic about colonization.

 

The introduction of the British musket was responsible for the slaughter of many tribes that didn't have them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your are being unfair. We gave them Rugby and the chance to get their own back. And, boy, - did they!

[Krataiboy]

If the Kiwis want to take down any statue or destroy any monument, that's their choice. But the decision should be made democratically, either through their parliament or a referendum. 

 

The same goes for everywhere else where the revisionist Marxist loonies are venting their collective spleen.

 

Oh, I forgot - they don't like democracy.

[thaibeachlovers]

37 minutes ago, JensenZ said:

The problem is with people who justify it as some kind of moral obligation of so called "civilized" countries to impose their moralities on the rest of the world. What happened happened and there's no going back. All you need to do is stop apologizing for it and see it for what it really was - A colonial land grab that considered any indigenous people as collateral damage.

I wasn't born then, and I don't own land. Why is it made my problem? My ancestors were Irish- should the Brits apologise to me for the sins of Cromwell? Should the descendants of Maori tribes that killed other tribes and ate them apologise for the sins of their forefathers?

There isn't a country on the planet that didn't suffer colonialism at some point in its history, but you appear to single out the British of the 18th/19th century, who were a darn sight better than the Belgians.

 

While atrocities happened on both sides long ago, today the Maoris have equal rights in NZ as any white descendant.

I wish those protestors would go to China and destroy pictures of Mao in public to find out what real life is like. Mao was a very bad guy, so why not?

[jingjai9]

Perhaps they should leave all of the statues up which are deemed offensive and add text, script or some kind of message that puts the stature in context. For example, when the statue was erected and by whom. Also, add some commentary explaining why the statue is offensive in modern times.  This creates a balance between forgetting the past by tearing the statue down and leaving it up where it perpetuates racist sentiment. Even if the memorialized person was racist or colonial, we cannot simply erase the past. That is how we learn. Leaving statues up with an explanation may show future generations how much we have learned.

 

Simply tearing down memorials that are offensive is one method of creating "historical Amnesia," the equivalent of erasing the past. Learn from the past, do not try to pretend atrocities never happened.

[thaibeachlovers]

7 minutes ago, Krataiboy said:

If the Kiwis want to take down any statue or destroy any monument, that's their choice. But the decision should be made democratically, either through their parliament or a referendum. 

 

The same goes for everywhere else where the revisionist Marxist loonies are venting their collective spleen.

 

Oh, I forgot - they don't like democracy.

They apparently no longer believe in "democracy" in NZ since they found they could do anything without needing parliament during the lockdown and hardly anyone complained. Lots of things are being implemented without consulting the taxpaying public.

Edited June 13, 2020 by thaibeachlovers

[thaibeachlovers]

Just now, jingjai9 said:

Perhaps they should leave all of the statues up which are deemed offensive and add text, script or some kind of message that puts the stature in context. For example, when the statue was erected and by whom. Also, add some commentary explaining why the statue is offensive in modern times.  This creates a balance between forgetting the past by tearing the statue down and leaving it up where it perpetuates racist sentiment. Even if the memorialized person was racist or colonial, we cannot simply erase the past. That is how we learn. Leaving statues up with an explanation may show future generations how much we have learned.

 

Simply tearing down memorials that are offensive is one method of creating "historical Amnesia," the equivalent of erasing the past. Learn from the past, do not try to pretend atrocities never happened.

Unfortunately leaving them won't work now. They'd just get vandalised. The mob has won, and good people are hiding as too afraid to oppose the mob openly.

[tifino]

5 hours ago, Boon Mee said:

What's next? 

How about removing Captain Cook's statue in OZ? 

But wait! 

That one is on the chopping block too from all reports... 

well it appears to now being restrained under a police witness protection scheme? 

[xylophone]

27 minutes ago, Kiwiken said:

Sadly how quickly they forget Before the Colonists got there they had rampant tribal War. North island Maori wiping Out the southern tribes. The North island Maori going to the Chatham islands and slaughtered the Mori Ori. And then the damn British Come and put a stop to it all. 

Colonialism has not always been good but the Inter tribal war and Cannibalism was stopped.

We have a long way to go but tearing down Statues and pretending History never happened instead of telling the truth does not benefit anyone.

Agree, as a fellow Kiwi, and the wiping out (genocide?) of the Moriori seems to have been forgotten these days, as were the wars between different Maori tribes.

 

Also remember that the French were keen on colonising NZ and had a few settlements there, so the British wanted to act to prevent this.

 

From all of these posts, I recall something I read which went like this, "The past is a foreign country; they do (did) things differently there" and so it was and has been throughout history and in many countries in one form or another, so let the past be what it is.

 

Tearing down statues is not going to change anything.

[Krataiboy]

Just now, Bluespunk said:

Ah the outrage from those defending these statues. Quite piquant. 

 

It is not a matter of defending statues but of defending democracy. Mob rule in unacceptable and anyone who thinks otherwise needs to learn the lessons of history.

 

Would you regard it as "piquant" if the next targets of these mindless vandals were churches and mosques, monuments to ideologies which thrived on genocide and slavery?

 

 

 

[metisdead]

Off topic posts, troll posts and the replies have been removed. 

[Silent Number]

5 minutes ago, Krataiboy said:

 

It is not a matter of defending statues but of defending democracy. Mob rule in unacceptable and anyone who thinks otherwise needs to learn the lessons of history.

 

Would you regard it as "piquant" if the next targets of these mindless vandals were churches and mosques, monuments to ideologies which thrived on genocide and slavery?

 

 

 

Geez I always thought piquant was the red chilli in Som Tum. The things you learn on ThaiVisa

Edited June 13, 2020 by Silent Number

[CGW]

28 minutes ago, Krataiboy said:

If the Kiwis want to take down any statue or destroy any monument, that's their choice. But the decision should be made democratically, either through their parliament or a referendum. 

The statues were never put in place by a "democratic population! they were placed there by the same ruling "cabal" that is now inciting people to tear them down! the "agenda" has just changed as they need to maintain control while they further their plans to maintain dominance & control, "divide & rule", they know all the tricks, wonder what else they have in store for us?

At least the Main stream media "remains" free, fair & honest, we can rely on them! ????

[JackThompson]

The Taliban Strikes Again.  A different anti-Western faction is running this operation, but with the same "destroy history" / "memory hole" tactics of the USSR, which Orwell explained so well.