Americans won't be in any travel bubble agreements anytime soon!

[keemapoot]

On 6/21/2020 at 7:34 AM, Jingthing said:

Well, I think that's actually another issue. The desirability of Thailand as a retirement destination was already well on the decline before this pandemic. It had already dropped off the top ten lists of most of the retire abroad media lists. The reasons were obvious -- visa rule changes and seemingly constantly jerk arounds and the general feeling that retired expats unless exceptionally wealthy weren't all that welcome here by the authorities.

 

But that's not this topic. 

This topic is more general on American passports being seen as universally undesirable due to the lack of control of the virus in the U.S.

Nobody can predict the exact timing of that kind of problem, but my guess is something like two years.

For sure it's true that Thailand is no longer as attractive a retirement destination, both for reasons we have all watched over the past few years as well as the now Covid-compounded fear of being locked either in Thailand, or out of Thailand. And, as you state in the OP, this is especially a concern for US passport holders or other countries which do not make it into any negotiated travel bubble. The fear that if you establish a permanent home in Thailand, and do not keep a home in your home country, you could be prevented from re-entering Thailand is real at this time, and is a consideration once Covid is over realizing there might be any manner of new virus in the future.

 

I am currently locked out of Thailand, as an American living in Japan. We have a permanent home in Thailand, but are lucky to have trusted family house-sitting and caring for our property. Normally, I enjoy coming and going between Japan and Thailand, but obviously that is over for this year mostly. Even my wife, a Thai, cannot return as of now. As a result of Covid and other factors, Ffor security, we will be purchasing a home in the US, and if and when Covid abates, and full travel is reinstated, we will spend half a year in each place, unless another pandemic hits, where we will have the security of a home in each place and able to comfortably sustain any length of new lock-down in the future.

 

I originally never planned this. I thought I would be fine with just my permanent home in Thailand, but that expat-only life is over for me.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 hour ago, theequalizer said:

I keep seeing the comment that America has poorly handled the current pandemic. The naysayers continue to focus on the number of deaths pitched against America's population count compared to a global population. And if we only considered the stats that are being reported by other nations it does seem that there is problem with our response the the pandemic. But living in many Asian nations has taught me one immutable truth: Other nations do not like to hear about America's thriving economy, fantastic infrastructure, quality medical technology, strong military, abundant resources, etc, etc, etc. Why? Because it reflects on their shortcomings. So they will make every effort to make themselves look better in the eyes of the world. 
 

 

So the fact 120,000 or so Americans and counting have died thus far from the CV thus far isn't such a bad thing because other countries may have been underreporting their data? That's the argument you want to make?

 

I'd argue 120,000 and counting dead Americans -- more than the sum of all those who have died in the U.S.'s recent wars -- is an indictment of the U.S. handling of the CV regardless of what anyone else anywhere else may have done...

 

Because a goodly portion of those deaths and the vastly larger number of illnesses could have been prevented if only the federal government under Trump had acted promptly and decisively, instead of denying, minimizing and politicizing.

 

Gathering 10,000+ people into an arena in Okhlahoma,  against the advice of all public health officials and not wearing a mask and tacitly encouraging all those there to not wear masks either in the midst of a surging local CV outbreak there is only the latest example of the pervasive irresponsibility this guy has fostered throughout.

 

Edited June 22, 2020 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Ventenio]

8 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

I'd argue 120,000 and counting dead Americans -- more than the sum of all those who have died in the U.S.'s recent wars

i never understand these comparisons.  it doesn't seem like the whole picture.  War....people are injured, didn't die.  PTSD, not included in the numbers either.  Killing others, the mental stress.....and we don't know the mental stress of covid, probably much greater BUT BUT maybe reversible.  we don't know.  I would say Pearl Harbor was worse than covid, and less people died.  I would say the abuse from the church on kids is worse than covid, but less died.  compare virus to virus...

 

are we going to then compare all deaths to the maybe 90 million that died in WW2 or a direct result of the war.  a death isn't a death for the sake of comparison.  raping and killing a healthy kid in a war isn't the same as an 80-year old dying from covid. 

 

10k people in OK does seem ridiculous, of course.  that's common sense.  other countries under reporting simply means the person is patriotic and thinks America is getting a bad rap.  Like with the protests.  Oh, they protest so they are the most racist?  NO.  it means it might be the best country by allowing to protest and not afraid to post some true covid numbers.  

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

11 minutes ago, Ventenio said:

 

10k people in OK does seem ridiculous, of course.  that's common sense.  other countries under reporting simply means the person is patriotic and thinks America is getting a bad rap.  Like with the protests.  Oh, they protest so they are the most racist?  NO.  it means it might be the best country by allowing to protest and not afraid to post some true covid numbers.  

 

Trump wanted to use the U.S. Army and National Guard to sweep peaceful protesters off the streets. He would have gone further than things ended up going if the Army hadn't publicly balked at getting involved against their own citizens. He was about anything but "allowing" protests.

 

Ever since the beginning, Trump has been about downplaying and minimizing the reported U.S. CV deaths and cases. Even at the OK rally, he talked about having told federal officials to "slow down" CV testing so the U.S. (and his re-election prospects) wouldn't look so bad. 

 

The reality has been exactly opposite to what you suggest above.

 

Quote

White House officials on the defensive after Trump says he wanted testing slowed down

 

(CNN)In a shocking admission during his Tulsa, Oklahoma, rally on Saturday night, President Donald Trump said he had told officials in his administration to slow down coronavirus testing because of the rising number of cases in America.

 

"You know testing is a double-edged sword," Trump said while complaining about press coverage of his handling of the virus. Claiming the US has now tested some 25 million people, he added: "Here's the bad part ... when you do testing to that extent, you're going to find more people; you're going to find more cases. So I said to my people, slow the testing down please."

 

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/20/politics/tulsa-rally-trump/index.html

Edited June 22, 2020 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Traubert]

1 hour ago, RocketDog said:

 

There is a third possibility that informed folks have independently formed negative attitudes, regardless of their nationality, based entirely upon lucid analysis of factual data over the last 20 years. 

 

I find your thesis, that all citizens base their attitudes on what their politicians tell them, unsupportable and slanderous to rational people.

 

 

 

Based upon who shouts loudest and who takes up the cry.

 

China is the first to admit its media is ineffectual.

[Pattaya46]

2 hours ago, theequalizer said:

I keep seeing the comment that America has poorly handled the current pandemic. The naysayers continue to focus on the number of deaths pitched against America's population count compared to a global population. And if we only considered the stats that are being reported by other nations it does seem that there is problem with our response the the pandemic. //

Naysayers? I think that for most members it's nothing personal against USA.

How could one think that it's not poorly handled with result shown on this graph ?

 

[checkered flag]

1 hour ago, Pattaya46 said:

Naysayers? I think that for most members it's nothing personal against USA.

How could one think that it's not poorly handled with result shown on this graph ?

 

Easy! More testing larger number. Get a life. In the Us infection control is a state responsibility so you need to look at individual state. Some do well and some don't.

[checkered flag]

2 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Trump wanted to use the U.S. Army and National Guard to sweep peaceful protesters off the streets. He would have gone further than things ended up going if the Army hadn't publicly balked at getting involved against their own citizens. He was about anything but "allowing" protests.

 

Ever since the beginning, Trump has been about downplaying and minimizing the reported U.S. CV deaths and cases. Even at the OK rally, he talked about having told federal officials to "slow down" CV testing so the U.S. (and his re-election prospects) wouldn't look so bad. 

 

The reality has been exactly opposite to what you suggest above.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/20/politics/tulsa-rally-trump/index.html

More garbage from CNN. If they said the truth, I'd have a hard time believing it and assume they made and error.

[Jingthing]

People - - please cool it on the USA politics debate. 

 

There are plenty of other places to do that. 

 

This topic is about travel restrictions, internationally undesirable passports due to national levels of virus control, etc. Of course there are political issues directly related to that but please limit any political comments to those directly related to the travel issues. 

[FalangJaiDee]

I'd honestly be surprised if Thailand lets Americans come to Thailand in 2020 at all. I'd say only sometime next year, with a negative COVID-test within 72 hours of the flight, a 14-day quarantine on arrival, mandatory traveler's insurance, and a negative COVID test at the end of your 14-day quarantine.  I'm being conservative because I'd like to be pleasantly surprised. I live in a state that appeared to have a "surge" but has now died down. I feel like this will also happen in the most recently surging southwestern states. When they die down as well, there may be a nationwide decline signaling a stabilization. 

 

Regardless as an American, it is extremely embarrassing. I cannot believe how pathetic, disgraceful, and haphazardly managed our response was. Its tarnished my perception (and I'm sure the rest of the world's) that this is a safe, civil, 1st world nation. 

[checkered flag]

1 minute ago, FalangJaiDee said:

I'd honestly be surprised if Thailand lets Americans come to Thailand in 2020 at all. I'd say only sometime next year, with a negative COVID-test within 72 hours of the flight, a 14-day quarantine on arrival, mandatory traveler's insurance, and a negative COVID test at the end of your 14-day quarantine.  I'm being conservative because I'd like to be pleasantly surprised. I live in a state that appeared to have a "surge" but has now died down. I feel like this will also happen in the most recently surging southwestern states. When they die down as well, there may be a nationwide decline signaling a stabilization. 

 

Regardless as an American, it is extremely embarrassing. I cannot believe how pathetic, disgraceful, and haphazardly managed our response was. Its tarnished my perception (and I'm sure the rest of the world's) that this is a safe, civil, 1st world nation. 

Yea. In NY they killed off all who were vulnerable, thanks to your governor. With the vulnerable out of the way the numbers will go down. Probably the same in N. Italy. 

Infection control is under state authority so your frustrations should be directed there. Unfortunately when we fly overseas we are all lumped on the same passport.

[Sheryl]

On 6/17/2020 at 6:28 PM, HashBrownHarry said:

I know Americans that have never stopped travelling regularly throughout the last 3 months, no restrictions.

 

Presumably not to SE Asia...as there definitely have been restrictions in place here.

[Sheryl]

1 hour ago, FalangJaiDee said:

I'd honestly be surprised if Thailand lets Americans come to Thailand in 2020 at all. I'd say only sometime next year, with a negative COVID-test within 72 hours of the flight, a 14-day quarantine on arrival, mandatory traveler's insurance, and a negative COVID test at the end of your 14-day quarantine.  I'm being conservative because I'd like to be pleasantly surprised. I live in a state that appeared to have a "surge" but has now died down. I feel like this will also happen in the most recently surging southwestern states. When they die down as well, there may be a nationwide decline signaling a stabilization. 

 

Regardless as an American, it is extremely embarrassing. I cannot believe how pathetic, disgraceful, and haphazardly managed our response was. Its tarnished my perception (and I'm sure the rest of the world's) that this is a safe, civil, 1st world nation. 

More likely not until there is a vaccine, with proof of vaccination.

 

The US is a big country. There are still states where COVID has barely started to make inroads. By the time it has declined in the current hot spots it will be flaring up in other parts of the country.

[Sheryl]

1 hour ago, checkered flag said:

 In NY they killed off all who were vulnerable, thanks to your governor. With the vulnerable out of the way the numbers will go down....

 They vulnerable have most certainly not all been "killed off" as you put it. Thete ate literally millions if vulnerable people still in NYC alone. I have close relatives and friends among them.

 

And the dead include many young and healthy people.

 

Bear in mind that antibody tests indicate only 20% of NYC residents have been exposed to the virus. Plenty of room for a second phase even there where number of cases was highest.

 

For some reason people seem to assume that the much  higher case fatality rates in the elderly and chronically ill means they are the only ones who die. Not at all the case. 

 

Younger, healthier people get around more and are more likely to get  infected as a result.  Their lower case fatality rates are partially offset by the larger number of cases. 

 

Even previously healthy children are among the dead.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 hour ago, checkered flag said:

With the vulnerable out of the way the numbers will go down.

 

1. That's simply false, because as Sheryl pointed out, the "vulnerable" are by no means all "out of the way" to use your words, not even close.

 

2. Any way you cut it, your comment is despicable. Wonder if you'll refer to your own family members as being "vulnerable out of the way" should CV befall them....

 

[vermin on arrival]

16 hours ago, Tounge Thaied said:

Its people like this, and the guy over in England who was responsible for the millions of dead computer model that erroneously scared the hell out of everyone unnecessarily. I'll let this guy articulate the issue and respond best for me... that is as long as the TV Ministry of Truth will allow me to post this.
 

 

Well here is the big problem we have in constructive debate. Fauci and WHO lied about masks to ensure masks for health care professionals, but it is problematic posting alternative viewpoints contradicting them for one will be considered anti-science or a conspiracy theorist and censored on social media platforms. Who knows what other falsehoods we have been told to believe? Part of the reason for the huge epidemic in the US that is making Americans radioactive now is the distrust in official sources that has led to an inability of people of different viewpoints to work together in America anymore.

 

This video should be allowed to stand since Jimmy Dore is officially allowed by youtube to post about covid and is currently monetized there when doing so, but maybe not.

[kwonitoy]

On 6/20/2020 at 4:15 PM, Mac98 said:

Americans can't even get into Canada.

In Alberta all the americans have to say is that they are in transit to Alaska, and its' welcome to Canada.

They've given out 7, $1,200 tickets in Banff national park to yanks so far, should deport them too

[Tounge Thaied]

On 6/22/2020 at 2:04 AM, vermin on arrival said:

Well here is the big problem we have in constructive debate. Fauci and WHO lied about masks to ensure masks for health care professionals, but it is problematic posting alternative viewpoints contradicting them for one will be considered anti-science or a conspiracy theorist and censored on social media platforms. Who knows what other falsehoods we have been told to believe? Part of the reason for the huge epidemic in the US that is making Americans radioactive now is the distrust in official sources that has led to an inability of people of different viewpoints to work together in America anymore.

 

This video should be allowed to stand since Jimmy Dore is officially allowed by youtube to post about covid and is currently monetized there when doing so, but maybe not.

Take a look a James Corbett's recent piece on "fact checking the fact checkers" at the Corbett report. He's on top of the current, as Orwell put it, Doublethink... because Ignorance is strength! Right. Another 1984 book reference. 

[Jingthing]

6 hours ago, kwonitoy said:

In Alberta all the americans have to say is that they are in transit to Alaska, and its' welcome to Canada.

They've given out 7, $1,200 tickets in Banff national park to yanks so far, should deport them too

That's interesting.

It is an unusual situation for there to be such a big chunk of a foreign land (if you can even call Canada foreign, so sorry) separating different parts of the same country.

[Jingthing]

This article covers more than the USA virus response, but includes references to it. The world has certainly noticed that the USA response to the virus has not been exceptionally good, but actually exceptionally bad. Many Americans of course have noticed that too.

 

So Americans will be suffering and dying from this virus much more than they had to but also in the context of this topic the consequences in international reputation and travel restrictions.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/06/22/us-is-falling-behind-its-peers-americans-if-not-their-leaders-are-starting-notice/

Quote

 

The U.S. is falling behind its peers. Americans — if not their leaders — are starting to notice.

 

Americans’ belief in American exceptionalism is declining — and that could be a good thing.

National narcissism has rendered us complacent, even impotent, in the face of multiple crises.

 

 

Edited June 23, 2020 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Spikes and waves? Sure. They happen. 

 

But those are yet another test of how different countries deal with them. 

 

Again in this the US is classified in the poorly responding countries. With countries like Pakistan. 

 

As opposed to more exemplary responses from countries like Germany and South Korea. 

 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2020/06/23/countries-around-world-scramble-contain-coronavirus-flare-ups-us-states-remain-open/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_virusglobal-115pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans

 

Countries around the world scramble to contain coronavirus flare-ups as U.S. states remain open

Edited June 23, 2020 by Jingthing

[checkered flag]

2 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Spikes and waves? Sure. They happen. 

 

But those are yet another test of how different countries deal with them. 

 

Again in this the US is classified in the poorly responding countries. With countries like Pakistan. 

 

As opposed to more exemplary responses from countries like Germany and South Korea. 

 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2020/06/23/countries-around-world-scramble-contain-coronavirus-flare-ups-us-states-remain-open/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_virusglobal-115pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans

 

Countries around the world scramble to contain coronavirus flare-ups as U.S. states remain open

You really can't trust the thing's opinion. It's constantly tinted by his lefty politics. Drill down and the truth will be different, in most cases.

[kwonitoy]

12 hours ago, Jingthing said:

That's interesting.

It is an unusual situation for there to be such a big chunk of a foreign land (if you can even call Canada foreign, so sorry) separating different parts of the same country.

There is a treaty that permits americans to travel from the continental US to Alaska on a transit.

They are supposed to use the most direct route, use drive thru s for food, minimize hotels stays, pay for gas at the pump.

The people they're catching in Banff are not on the route to Alaska,

They were brought to the police's attention by restaurant worker's in the park

 

@#$!heads 

[Jingthing]

I heard that Thailand is working on a travel bubble deal with Japan and Australia. 

 

Nobody is surprised that the USA Isn't included. 

 

The EU is considering banning Americans. That's not surprising either. 

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/23/politics/eu-us-coronavirus-travel/index.html

 

European Union mulls recommendation to block travelers, including Americans, due to coronavirus

 

 

Edited June 24, 2020 by Jingthing

[keemapoot]

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

I heard that Thailand is working on a travel bubble deal with Japan and Australia. 

 

Nobody is surprised that the USA Isn't included. 

 

The EU is considering banning Americans. That's not surprising either. 

Yup. This Japan bubble will likely exclude Americans, even if they haven't visited America since the onset of Covid. Actually, for Thais, Japan is one of their favored destinations, so Japan will be glad to have visitors from a country with Covid under control, and the many flights will hopefully resume.

 

This idea of bubble travel is now even being discussed between and among "clean states" in the US. Governor Cuomo of NY recently said he is considering a similar idea as to which states he will create travel bubbles with now that New York is getting this under control - and bar travel with those states that are not clean. This will be extremely difficult to police in the US, as you know there is no border security between states that currently allows this, unless you task the state highway patrol with some new border checkpoint program. But, even then, how can you track where an individual has been, even if they cross the border from a trusted state?

[Jingthing]

Yeah the idea of bubbles between states sounds like wishful thinking. No borders. Just drive anywhere. 

[mommysboy]

On 6/22/2020 at 4:04 PM, Sheryl said:

 They vulnerable have most certainly not all been "killed off" as you put it. Thete ate literally millions if vulnerable people still in NYC alone. I have close relatives and friends among them.

 

And the dead include many young and healthy people.

 

Bear in mind that antibody tests indicate only 20% of NYC residents have been exposed to the virus. Plenty of room for a second phase even there where number of cases was highest.

 

For some reason people seem to assume that the much  higher case fatality rates in the elderly and chronically ill means they are the only ones who die. Not at all the case. 

 

Younger, healthier people get around more and are more likely to get  infected as a result.  Their lower case fatality rates are partially offset by the larger number of cases. 

 

Even previously healthy children are among the dead.

 

Mainly I agree, but lets not exaggerate the risks to younger people and children in particular.  Yes a very small minority of young adults get seriously ill, and a fraction do die.  Being young doesn't necessarily imply being healthy, let alone being fit. 

 

Uk researchers expressed the risks as follows; I assume there is a degree of accuracy given the reputation of the source and publication:

 

https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1327

[Sheryl]

You are confusing age specific case fatality with the age breakdown among those who die. Two very different things which is what I was trying to explain.

 

Old people and people with underlying chronic health problems unquestionably have a higher risk of dying should they get COVID. But they tend to be much less active/exposed to crowded situations so there are fewer cases among them.

 

Younger healthy people have much lower case fatality rate but far more of them get infected,

 

So the deaths include more young and healthy people than the age specific fatality rates might lead you to expect and the widespread perception that only the old/chronically ill are vulnerable to severe COVID, and that young healthy people will al,ways recover just fine,  is untrue.

[checkered flag]

The original premised regarding Covid19 was to slow cases from spreading as to not overwhelm hospitals. That why there was shutdowns, and other restrictions. This is an infectious disease and will spread regardless. Since hospitals have not been overwhelmed (as expected) and some hospitals now suffer from low census the approach has been successful. Most of those infected including young to middle age adult have mild or no symptoms, but those who are not healthy are impacted more. When I see increasing number it shows that the infection is spreading naturally. Hurd immunity is a natural occurrence within groups but hopefully we'll have a vaccine soon to help the process.  

One shouldn't  get hung up on case numbers, but rather how individual societies handle their sick. 

 

[Rimmer]

An off topic post has been removed