UK ready to quit EU on 'Australia terms' if no Brexit deal, Johnson says

[transam]

12 hours ago, 7by7 said:

There is certainly no chance of you, yourself, converting me; because you never post any facts!

 

Why do you assume that anyone who disagree with you on any subject is a 'lefty?' How far right are you to believe that? Many Tories supported Remain and still consider Brexit a massive mistake. Some even supporting a second referendum on the final deal.

 

BREXIT REBELS Which MPs are supporting a second EU referendum – the cross-party politicians who are backing a second Brexit vote (I could have used other sources; chose this one as even you will find it difficult to dismiss The Sun as 'lefty.')

 

I do at times call a spade a <deleted> shovel. true. But I'm not the only one. Your own attitude towards those with whom you disagree is hardly an example of sweetness and light!

 

I suggested that Loiner 'put me in my place' by answering my question and so proving me wrong. Where in the forum rules does it say that answering another members questions and proving them wrong is not allowed?

 

One thing is sure, after the 1975 referendum our membership was done and we moved on. 

 

After the Maastricht treaty was signed and approved by a Tory (not 'lefty') government, we moved on.

 

Whilst I disagree strongly with Farage and other Brexiteers, had they not stood on their orange boxes then the 2016 referendum would never have taken place and Brexit would never have happened!

 

It's what happens in a democracy; people are allowed to disagree with the government and push for change. 

 

And you call me condescending!

Like I said, good for a laugh....????

[IvorBiggun2]

8 hours ago, tebee said:

Did you lot ever stop whining in the 45 years since the 1975 referendum?

 

No - I thought not 

Yes cuz I accepted the democratic referendum result that took us into the EEC (EU). Whereas ...................................

Edited July 18, 2020 by IvorBiggun2

[transam]

12 hours ago, 7by7 said:

There is certainly no chance of you, yourself, converting me; because you never post any facts!

 

Why do you assume that anyone who disagree with you on any subject is a 'lefty?' How far right are you to believe that? Many Tories supported Remain and still consider Brexit a massive mistake. Some even supporting a second referendum on the final deal.

 

BREXIT REBELS Which MPs are supporting a second EU referendum – the cross-party politicians who are backing a second Brexit vote (I could have used other sources; chose this one as even you will find it difficult to dismiss The Sun as 'lefty.')

 

I do at times call a spade a <deleted> shovel. true. But I'm not the only one. Your own attitude towards those with whom you disagree is hardly an example of sweetness and light!

 

I suggested that Loiner 'put me in my place' by answering my question and so proving me wrong. Where in the forum rules does it say that answering another members questions and proving them wrong is not allowed?

 

One thing is sure, after the 1975 referendum our membership was done and we moved on. 

 

After the Maastricht treaty was signed and approved by a Tory (not 'lefty') government, we moved on.

 

Whilst I disagree strongly with Farage and other Brexiteers, had they not stood on their orange boxes then the 2016 referendum would never have taken place and Brexit would never have happened!

 

It's what happens in a democracy; people are allowed to disagree with the government and push for change. 

 

And you call me condescending!

"Never post any facts", well here's a few...... 

 

The UK voted to leave the EU in 2016.....Fact

 

The last general election in 2020 showed the UK populace of many Parties, wanted Brexit completed.....Fact.

 

Brexit has happened......Fact.

 

Remainers like yourself will try to scupper the UK populace's wishes.....Fact.

 

Remainers keep acting like tools instead of backing the wishes of the voters....Fact.

 

You stated Islamic terrorists are not Muslims.....Fact.

 

 I stated they are......Fact.

 

You will probably ask for links to the above.....Fact................????...............????

[evadgib]

5 hours ago, transam said:

"Never post any facts", well here's a few...... 

 

The UK voted to leave the EU in 2016.....Fact

 

The last general election in 2020 showed the UK populace of many Parties, wanted Brexit completed.....Fact.

 

Brexit has happened......Fact.

 

Remainers like yourself will try to scupper the UK populace's wishes.....Fact.

 

Remainers keep acting like tools instead of backing the wishes of the voters....Fact.

 

You stated Islamic terrorists are not Muslims.....Fact.

 

 I stated they are......Fact.

 

You will probably ask for links to the above.....Fact................????...............????

Don't play his game Trans; "B-B-B-Bait a B-Brexiter" 

[7by7]

7 hours ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

Yes cuz I accepted the democratic referendum result that took us into the EEC (EU). Whereas ...................................

 So are you saying that Farage and everyone else who lobbied and demonstrated and campaigned against that 1975 result were wrong to do so and acting undemocratically?

 

Or are you saying doing so when you agree with them is right, but when you disagree it's wrong?

 

 

[7by7]

7 hours ago, transam said:

"Never post any facts", well here's a few...... 

I actually asked for facts to show how we will be better off after Brexit; which you have yet again failed to provide!

 

However......

 

7 hours ago, transam said:

The UK voted to leave the EU in 2016.....Fact

Not denying that, never have: fact.

 

7 hours ago, transam said:

The last general election in 2020 showed the UK populace of many Parties, wanted Brexit completed.....Fact.

It showed that 53% of voters wanted a say on the final terms of our exit: fact.

 

7 hours ago, transam said:

Brexit has happened......Fact.

Up until the final deal between the UK and EU is signed, it is still reversible if the 27 members unanimously agree: fact.

 

7 hours ago, transam said:

Remainers like yourself will try to scupper the UK populace's wishes.....Fact.

No, we want the wishes of at least 53% of voters granted, a say on the final deal: fact.

 

Brexiteers want to deny that wish because you are scared of the result; fact.

 

7 hours ago, transam said:

Remainers keep acting like tools instead of backing the wishes of the voters....Fact.

Tools? Tools of whom? I repeat, the wish of at least 53% of voters is to have a final say on the deal: fact.

 

7 hours ago, transam said:

You stated Islamic terrorists are not Muslims.....Fact.

What has Islamic terrorism got to do with this topic? 

 

However, to indulge you; I did not say that they are not Muslims. What I have said many times is that Islamic terrorists neither represent nor are supported by the overwhelming majority of Muslims: fact.

This is proven by the decades of condemnation of the terrorists coming from countless Muslim political, religious and community leaders and representatives worldwide, as well as that from individual Muslims on social media etc.: fact.

 

7 hours ago, transam said:

I stated they are......Fact.

Yes, they are Muslims, just as the IRA are Catholics, and I have never denied it; fact.

 

7 hours ago, transam said:

You will probably ask for links to the above.....Fact..

Not a lot of point as experience has shown that you are incapable of ever providing evidence to back up your claims and accusations; fact.

[welovesundaysatspace]

2 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

I actually asked for facts to show how we will be better off after Brexit; which you have yet again failed to provide!

Brexiteers presenting the opportunities of Brexit

 

[7by7]

4 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Brexiteers presenting the opportunities of Brexit

 

 

That link takes me to a Facebook page on Trump!

[welovesundaysatspace]

25 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

That link takes me to a Facebook page on Trump!

Wait, that’s not BoJo? 

[Loiner]

14 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 I refer you to most of your posts and those of your fellow travellers.

 

It's more than occasionally, as you well know. but it doesn't bother me anyway near as much as it bothers you and your fellow travellers when you receive a taste of your own medicine. 

 

In a democracy the people have the right to change their mind. You and your fellow travellers blather on and on about democracy, except when, as last December, the majority want something you don't!

 

It was Johnson and Rees-Mogg together with the ERG who prevented the UK leaving on schedule. As it is now obvious that the best deal we can hope for is May's deal MkII, and they knew it at the time. We now all know the reason for the delay had nothing to do with what is best for the country, and all to do with what is best for Johnson and his cohorts. Not to mention his puppet master, of course.

 

 

Unlike the bus, these ads do not contain any outright lies. But were you able to see them you would know they don't contain anything of substance, either.

 

In what way is Cummings playing a blinder? The whole reason for this thread, and others, is that the EU are walking all over him! He wants May MkII, but the EU wont give it to him.

Who are these travellers you keep mentioning? Where are all those examples - non existent? Come on, you are the one who loves links, quotes and facts.

I'll take your 'medicine' with a large spoonful of sugar, but I can see that you usually suffer sudden reaction in a knee jerk of the report button. Is that what makes you feel better?

The referendum majority and our subsequent democratic Leave the EU is a done deal. Your constant moaning is just that - constant moaning.

Fortunately JRM and the ERG saved the nation from Treasonous Theresa's remaining BRINO. We thank the increased majority for the GE Tory landslide for giving Boris and Dominic the tools to ensure we will Leave and transition without major damage.

Will these current ads ever match the losers bus fixation? Nah, not snappy and direct enough for Remainers to comprehend while they are still wallowing in bitterness.

EU are not walking anywhere, other than home empty handed. David Frost is giving them nothing and Barnier is only close to being given the boot by his EU masters. 

[Sujo]

12 minutes ago, Loiner said:

Who are these travellers you keep mentioning? Where are all those examples - non existent? Come on, you are the one who loves links, quotes and facts.

I'll take your 'medicine' with a large spoonful of sugar, but I can see that you usually suffer sudden reaction in a knee jerk of the report button. Is that what makes you feel better?

The referendum majority and our subsequent democratic Leave the EU is a done deal. Your constant moaning is just that - constant moaning.

Fortunately JRM and the ERG saved the nation from Treasonous Theresa's remaining BRINO. We thank the increased majority for the GE Tory landslide for giving Boris and Dominic the tools to ensure we will Leave and transition without major damage.

Will these current ads ever match the losers bus fixation? Nah, not snappy and direct enough for Remainers to comprehend while they are still wallowing in bitterness.

EU are not walking anywhere, other than home empty handed. David Frost is giving them nothing and Barnier is only close to being given the boot by his EU masters. 

Im curious. May was brino. What has boris achieved that is different to her?

[Loiner]

53 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Brexiteers presenting the opportunities of Brexit

 

[DaLa]

On 7/17/2020 at 5:52 PM, welovesundaysatspace said:

I think you don’t know what “just-in-time” means. 

I know it doesn't figure in my (very) successful export business.

 

Whilst JIT for many years has been the holy grail for some businesses, many have found it not to be the panacea for all supply chain solutions. One example is a sudden surge in market demand.

 

There are multiple reasons why your supply chain can be interrupted, so to choose one as the original poster did and suggest cataclysmic outcomes is disingenuous and again, scaremongering. Especially as the scenario the post proposed was purely speculative.

 

PS.  I didn't vote to leave.  Not that that is influencing your opinion of course.

[nauseus]

16 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 Two parts of that prove you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

"You all seem to think that there is one veto to fit all - there isn't."  and "As I explained in another post there have numerous vetoes for different purposes."

 

Yes, there are various variations on vetoes, who can use one and for what purpose. But all vetoes are the power to to unilaterally stop an official action, especially the enactment of legislation. In the EU, vetoes are absolute which means in those policy areas unanimity is always required. 

 

For the more common examples see. Unanimity.

 

I have no idea how 'Ted Heath' serves as evidence to support the statement "The lies and myths about EEC/EU treaties involving the UK started 50 years ago." He may have been PM when we joined, but Wilson was PM in 1975. I'd ask you for some real examples, but I know you can't.

You always say that your claims equate to proof. But they never do.

 

I am glad that you admit that there are various variations on vetoes and yes, there were a very few important ones left that required unanimity. The main problem was the rate that vetoes were disappearing; an important example is the EU’s common defence policy, which can now be passed by a majority vote and cannot be stopped by a single veto, as a result of the Treaty of Lisbon. Historically, the UK had few natural voting allies in the EU, so it was often outvoted anyway. More and more important votes and vetoes were lost. All unanimity vetoes still empower a member to unilaterally stop an action but these became very few and many elements of EU legislation were already passed by majority or QMV by the time that Cameron was forced to give up our veto allowing us to argue for more comprehensive EU reform in any future EU treaty change, as part of his failed pre referendum deal with the EU.

 

Ted Heath lied to and deceived the British people in the June, 1971, White Paper, sent to every UK home saying: "there is no question of Britain losing essential sovereignty." And he he said on TV in 1973: “There are some in this country who fear that, in going into Europe, we shall in some way sacrifice independence and sovereignty. These fears, I need hardly say, are completely unjustified.” Now, how on earth can it be that we have not lost significant chunks of both independence and sovereignty, in many ways? Heath was PM and signed us into the EEC in 1973 - with no prior referendum of course - he knew what the result would have been.

 

The 1975 Wilson government also tried deceive the UK voters in the Labour party referendum pamphlet with: "No important new policy can be decided in Brussels".. This is the use of the word important in a very loose sense at best and a complete misuse of the word to most. This statement was untrue in 1975 and became more of a lie as EEC/EU treaties and members increased in number. 

 

Edited July 18, 2020 by nauseus

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, Loiner said:

Who are these travellers you keep mentioning? Where are all those examples - non existent? Come on, you are the one who loves links, quotes and facts.

I'll take your 'medicine' with a large spoonful of sugar, but I can see that you usually suffer sudden reaction in a knee jerk of the report button. Is that what makes you feel better?

The referendum majority and our subsequent democratic Leave the EU is a done deal. Your constant moaning is just that - constant moaning.

Fortunately JRM and the ERG saved the nation from Treasonous Theresa's remaining BRINO. We thank the increased majority for the GE Tory landslide for giving Boris and Dominic the tools to ensure we will Leave and transition without major damage.

Will these current ads ever match the losers bus fixation? Nah, not snappy and direct enough for Remainers to comprehend while they are still wallowing in bitterness.

EU are not walking anywhere, other than home empty handed. David Frost is giving them nothing and Barnier is only close to being given the boot by his EU masters. 

He thinks everyone is a travelling salesman that flies BA!

[melvinmelvin]

 

since it is Saturday;

 

remember PM TM and her moves to the tune of ABBA's Dancing Queen during a meeting in Brussels?

 

in Europe we now have the UK PM and his ministers not happy with EU and more comfortable outside

we know how fun they are

 

here is another Eoropean PM with her ministers also comfortable outside the EU;

somewhat different from UK peers

(the PM is the real large one)

 

https://www.abcnyheter.no/helse-og-livsstil/livet/2020/07/18/195690716/siv-jensen-om-skjebnevalget-jeg-har-ikke-angret-et-sekund

 

the lass in the kayak is the previous minister of finance,

scroll down a bit and a video with front page with a start button should appear

and current PM with all the ministers should appear

 

 

 

Edited July 18, 2020 by melvinmelvin
add

[bannork]

[bannork]

Come on Boris, cough up (no pun intended)

https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-council-calls-government-provide-4332686

[nauseus]

36 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

since it is Saturday;

 

remember PM TM and her moves to the tune of ABBA's Dancing Queen during a meeting in Brussels?

 

in Europe we now have the UK PM and his ministers not happy with EU and more comfortable outside

we know how fun they are

 

here is another Eoropean PM with her ministers also comfortable outside the EU;

somewhat different from UK peers

(the PM is the real large one)

 

https://www.abcnyheter.no/helse-og-livsstil/livet/2020/07/18/195690716/siv-jensen-om-skjebnevalget-jeg-har-ikke-angret-et-sekund

 

the lass in the kayak is the previous minister of finance,

scroll down a bit and a video with front page with a start button should appear

and current PM with all the ministers should appear

 

 

 

Off topic but the collective dance timing was better than May's. Yes your Erna certainly stands out.

[nauseus]

10 minutes ago, bannork said:

Come on Boris, cough up (no pun intended)

https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-council-calls-government-provide-4332686

Shouldn't be a problem - it was UK money anyway.

Edited July 18, 2020 by nauseus

[kingdong]

2 hours ago, bannork said:

if you fart and nobody hears it does it count as a fart?

[bannork]

19 minutes ago, kingdong said:

if you fart and nobody hears it does it count as a fart?

Ask fellow Brexiteers, they're full of manure.

 

[Neeranam]

On 6/28/2020 at 8:21 AM, vogie said:

Seems that Mr Barnier is drinking at the last chance saloon.????????????

Who is Mr Barnier?

[7by7]

7 hours ago, Loiner said:

Who are these travellers you keep mentioning? Where are all those examples - non existent? Come on, you are the one who loves links, quotes and facts.

I'll take your 'medicine' with a large spoonful of sugar, but I can see that you usually suffer sudden reaction in a knee jerk of the report button. Is that what makes you feel better?

The referendum majority and our subsequent democratic Leave the EU is a done deal. Your constant moaning is just that - constant moaning.

Fortunately JRM and the ERG saved the nation from Treasonous Theresa's remaining BRINO. We thank the increased majority for the GE Tory landslide for giving Boris and Dominic the tools to ensure we will Leave and transition without major damage.

Will these current ads ever match the losers bus fixation? Nah, not snappy and direct enough for Remainers to comprehend while they are still wallowing in bitterness.

EU are not walking anywhere, other than home empty handed. David Frost is giving them nothing and Barnier is only close to being given the boot by his EU masters. 

 

The fellow travellers are all those travelling with you blindly down the path of swallowing of the truth twisting and ignoring, not to mention downright lying, propaganda of Farage, Cummings et al over the past couple of decades. 

 

As I said, the examples are in your and other's posts; if you can't remember what you posted that's your problem, not mine. 

 

Yes, I do love facts; when will you provide some to support your viewpoint? You can't even name one single benefit to the UK of Brexit; not one!

 

BTW, I do not resort to the report button. I prefer to fight my own battles and neither want nor need posts I disagree with deleted. 

 

If May's deal was treasonous and we are saved from it, why are Cummings and Johnson desperate to get the EU to accept the same deal with a few minor tweaks?

 

Yet again, you choose to ignore the democratic wish of the people as democratically voiced last December when 53% of voters voted for parties which promised us a final say on any deal. It is only the vagaries of our first past the post system which gave Johnson his majority in the house, But even that majority is in danger of disappearing as more and more Tory MPs express dissatisfaction with his leadership over a range of issues; notably his defence of, and apparent deference to, Cummings and his response to the pandemic: 

• Pull down 'iron curtain' at Number 10, MPs urge Prime Minister; 
• Watch out Boris, some Tory MPs are starting to think the unthinkable; 
• Tory MP slams ‘pitiful’ leadership as backbenchers turn on Boris Johnson over pandemic response

I've said before that I expect the party to ditch Boris next January once Brexit is over and done with, if it is by then; but the numerous reports here in the UK such as those above make me wonder if he can even last that long!

 

The bus was an outright lie, the current ads are meaningless waffle.

 

If the EU walk away empty handed, then so do we. Unfortunately for the prosperity of the UK in the near to mid future, we have far more to lose from no deal than they. Where are all the countries the leave campaigns said would be clamouring to do trade deals with us post Brexit? They're not exactly lining up outside Liz Truss's door!

 

 

 

 

 

[7by7]

6 hours ago, nauseus said:

You always say that your claims equate to proof. But they never do.

 

I am glad that you admit that there are various variations on vetoes and yes, there were a very few important ones left that required unanimity. The main problem was the rate that vetoes were disappearing; an important example is the EU’s common defence policy, which can now be passed by a majority vote and cannot be stopped by a single veto, as a result of the Treaty of Lisbon. Historically, the UK had few natural voting allies in the EU, so it was often outvoted anyway. More and more important votes and vetoes were lost. All unanimity vetoes still empower a member to unilaterally stop an action but these became very few and many elements of EU legislation were already passed by majority or QMV by the time that Cameron was forced to give up our veto allowing us to argue for more comprehensive EU reform in any future EU treaty change, as part of his failed pre referendum deal with the EU.

 

Ted Heath lied to and deceived the British people in the June, 1971, White Paper, sent to every UK home saying: "there is no question of Britain losing essential sovereignty." And he he said on TV in 1973: “There are some in this country who fear that, in going into Europe, we shall in some way sacrifice independence and sovereignty. These fears, I need hardly say, are completely unjustified.” Now, how on earth can it be that we have not lost significant chunks of both independence and sovereignty, in many ways? Heath was PM and signed us into the EEC in 1973 - with no prior referendum of course - he knew what the result would have been.

 

The 1975 Wilson government also tried deceive the UK voters in the Labour party referendum pamphlet with: "No important new policy can be decided in Brussels".. This is the use of the word important in a very loose sense at best and a complete misuse of the word to most. This statement was untrue in 1975 and became more of a lie as EEC/EU treaties and members increased in number. 

 

If I make a claim, I provide evidence; you should try it some time. 

 

As for proof of your ignorance of the Lisbon Treaty, you have condemned yourself in many previous posts and done so yet again here. The proof? I have already provided that in two Full fact articles and one FCO document; go back and read them, if you dare. Do that and you will discover that yet again your belief in what is contained in the treaty is wrong.

 

Heath's White Paper was not delivered to every home in the country in 1972, Wilson's leaflet was in 1975.

 

But neither Heath nor Wilson ever denied that joining the EEC would entail some loss of sovereignty in certain areas of common interest; indeed they made it clear on many occasions! No, Britain wasn't lied to when we joined the EU. We knew what we were getting into.

 

But although some sovereignty was lost, in all non EU related matters the UK Parliament remained sovereign. Britain, the EU and the Sovereignty Myth

Quote

Apart from EU immigration, the British government still determines the vast majority of policy over every issue of greatest concern to British voters – including health, education, pensions, welfare, monetary policy, defence and border security.

 

Even the oft quoted nonsense that the ECJ can and often does overrule all UK courts is a lie. It is only supreme in matters of EU law. In all other legal matters it is the UK's own Supreme Court which is supreme.

 

With one exception; human rights. In which case the ECHR and it's court holds supremacy.  But contrary to many Brexiteers belief, neither the ECHR nor it's court have anything to do with the EU.

[englishoak]

 Its fantastic to see the butt hurt has got to page 116 and the whiners are still going. 

 

 

 

Absolutely love it.. 

[kingdong]

1 hour ago, englishoak said:

 Its fantastic to see the butt hurt has got to page 116 and the whiners are still going. 

 

 

 

Absolutely love it.. 

a man amongst men,god bless nigel.

[Laughing Gravy]

9 hours ago, bannork said:

Of course not when you have your head in the sand and have little understanding of how the EU actually works.

[transam]

15 hours ago, 7by7 said:

I actually asked for facts to show how we will be better off after Brexit; which you have yet again failed to provide!

 

However......

 

Not denying that, never have: fact.

 

It showed that 53% of voters wanted a say on the final terms of our exit: fact.

 

Up until the final deal between the UK and EU is signed, it is still reversible if the 27 members unanimously agree: fact.

 

No, we want the wishes of at least 53% of voters granted, a say on the final deal: fact.

 

Brexiteers want to deny that wish because you are scared of the result; fact.

 

Tools? Tools of whom? I repeat, the wish of at least 53% of voters is to have a final say on the deal: fact.

 

What has Islamic terrorism got to do with this topic? 

 

However, to indulge you; I did not say that they are not Muslims. What I have said many times is that Islamic terrorists neither represent nor are supported by the overwhelming majority of Muslims: fact.

This is proven by the decades of condemnation of the terrorists coming from countless Muslim political, religious and community leaders and representatives worldwide, as well as that from individual Muslims on social media etc.: fact.

 

Yes, they are Muslims, just as the IRA are Catholics, and I have never denied it; fact.

 

Not a lot of point as experience has shown that you are incapable of ever providing evidence to back up your claims and accusations; fact.

 

[transam]

12 hours ago, bannork said:

Does that person push over or paint statues too.....?   ????