Pro lockdown advocates, what's your solution for unemployment, homeless and no food?

[Mikeasq60]

8 hours ago, steelepulse said:

I have no political agenda and I am not anti vacc.  

 

Now, let's get back to your solution.

Enough about my Pres Trump. Nancy Pelosi in the beginning was calling for everyone to visit China Town and show support in San Francisco while president Trump said lock it down. Whenever I start seeing inaccurate facts I'm going to call it out. This cv is a plan perpetrated by China and world powers who aren't fond of President Trump. 

[BritManToo]

1 hour ago, fredwiggy said:

I didn't mean everyone staying home until the vaccine comes

If they haven't been able to do HIV and flu, why do you think they can do COVID?

(30 years plus research)

 

There won't be a vaccine.

We'll be in lock-down of various types (depending on the nature of your government) forever.

(Or if I'm wrong and there's no conspiracy to remove our ability to travel, lock-down will end when all those susceptible to COVID are dead)

 

Edited June 29, 2020 by BritManToo

[tribalfusion001]

12 minutes ago, Laza 45 said:

Anti-lockdown advocates.. what is your solution to a situation where the virus is not controlled with no end in sight and a destroyed economy.. with no hope of a return to 'normal'.. a tourist industry that is impossible to revive because visitors have no confidence that they are safe here?  

It's clear in most countries who the demographics are of those dying, these people should be protected and everything else should be opened back up the same as before, no restrictions. Carrying on with social distancing and the restrictions on what can and cannot open will just stifle economies to the point of no return.

Edited June 29, 2020 by tribalfusion001

[Lacessit]

Australia seems to have got it right, with a massive stimulus. Just like it did when the issue of mass shootings arose.

I don't subscribe to the view Thailand got it right. I'm more inclined to think unknown environmental, biological and genetic factors saved Thailand from catastrophe. The mass exodus from Bangkok to the villages was a perfect petri dish for virus transmission, no-one can tell me that was good management. Thailand's road toll is further proof.

 Tragically, I think the USA is adhering to Churchill's maxim. " Americans usually get it right, after they have tried everything else".

[BadBouy]

 

[JackThompson]

31 minutes ago, scorecard said:

Perhaps the first point is to be angry with trump for such a slow reaction to do anything and also be angry that the US president talks silly and unprofessional about 'just a hoax' etc.,

Even the left-wing fact-checkers admitted he never said covid was a "hoax" - that he was specifically referring to the politization of the epidemic by the opposing party.  Do folks really not know this - or are intentionally trying to mislead people?

 

I am not a Trump-fan, but so sick of anything he says taken purposfully out of context, of the opposition postition taken just because "Trump said it."

 

31 minutes ago, scorecard said:

and plays silly games with his ridiculous comments about masks and because for his latest big event his own staff removed the 'don't sit here' stickers. And for playing silly games about PPE, equipment etc.

What silly games with PPE?  You mean the CDC and Surgeon General telling people masks don't help - in order to keep them for medical-personnel?  Yes, that lie happened. 

 

31 minutes ago, scorecard said:

Sure it's very sad that so many people have lost their jobs and struggle to feed their families etc. So that brings the question 'who should be taking care of these folks', and IMHO the answer is 'the government', quickly arranging (as the Australian national and state government did) very focused and structured help and support. Plus the wealthy giving a hand.

The USA has given out too much money to those not needing help - even giving checks to people who never lost their jobs/incomes.   It is small-business who has suffered from the pointless total-shutdowns, with big-business celebrating grabbing up the market-share.  The solution was shielding the vulnerable, which many state-govs did NOT do - even forcing covid-positive patients into nursing homes - leading to thousands of premature deaths. 

 

But the question is, how will Thais survive an ongoing shutdown?  More debt?

[Kinnock]

It's not surprising that opinions are so divided - with a novel virus there are no real experts, and vested interests are clouding the issue even more, particularly the press and media who deliberately created fear .

 

Plus most the stats being quoted have a single source (Johns Hopkins) which is generally thought to be incorrect by a factor of 10 or more, plus figures cannot be compared between countries as they are heavily infuenced by testing rates and standards of healthcare.

 

Add in the feeble leadership by the WHO, and we have a perfect storm of missinformation and poor judgement.

 

This has resulted in contradictory opionions being peddled by self proclaimed 'experts' on-line, so if anyone leans towards a particular  viewpoint, they will find plenty of supporting 'evidence'.

 

The result is a Dunning-Kruger pandemic of people who mistakenly believe they know what they are talking about.

 

So with that as the environment, it's hargly surprising Governments made mistakes, but Thailand seems to have got more right than wrong .... so far.

[Berkshire]

2 hours ago, BritManToo said:

I'm already dying ..... Karma can't hurt me!

About a year left ........ maybe 2 or 3, 6 would be impossibe, nobody in my family made it that far (70).

 

But to destroy the world so a few of the old and sick last another year is madness.

You're making the assumption that COVID only threatens the older and/or those with underlying conditions.  That the young and healthy folks can just get over it like the common cold.  But early studies indicate that COVID patients, including the young/healthy folks, may suffer from long term respiratory and cardiac damage, among other things.  Regardless, I'd rather not take that chance if I can avoid it.   

[fredwiggy]

2 hours ago, tubby johnson said:

Do covid-19 victims also die because of their karma?

 

Total nonsense. Karma is the consolation of the weak and ignorant; the universe is completely indifferent to us.

What goes around, comes around for another definition. If you live by the sword, you die by the sword also. You keep <deleted> around with people, you'll pay. You can't go around hurting others without "karma" coming to pay the piper.

[JackThompson]

31 minutes ago, Berkshire said:

You're making the assumption that COVID only threatens the older and/or those with underlying conditions.  That the young and healthy folks can just get over it like the common cold.  But early studies indicate that COVID patients, including the young/healthy folks, may suffer from long term respiratory and cardiac damage, among other things.  Regardless, I'd rather not take that chance if I can avoid it.   

The evidence to-date indicates a nearly infintesimal chance of a young and healthy person having those health outcomes.  Dengue is a much greater threat to them, as are auto-accidents, and we don't do this to address those dangers.

[BritManToo]

17 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

The evidence to-date indicates a nearly infintesimal chance of a young and healthy person having those health outcomes.  Dengue is a much greater threat to them, as are auto-accidents, and we don't do this to address those dangers.

I'd suggest over-eating and under-exercising is a worse risk to the future health of young people.

If the government wants to control where we go, might as well go the whole hog and control, how we travel, what we eat and how much we exercise as well.

 

How many lives would be saved if RTAs, obesity and heart disease were eliminated?

Edited June 29, 2020 by BritManToo

[Berkshire]

20 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

The evidence to-date indicates a nearly infintesimal chance of a young and healthy person having those health outcomes.  Dengue is a much greater threat to them, as are auto-accidents, and we don't do this to address those dangers.

"Infinitesimal?"  I don't know where you're getting your information, but I wouldn't be so certain.  COVID is new, but there's massive studies going on at the moment.  For instance...

 

[-Severe cases of COVID-19 can cause lasting damage to the lungs that may necessitate surgery or even organ transplants.

-While the majority of COVID-19 deaths have occurred in people who are older, fibrosis cases show that even young people who survive the disease can have lasting complications.

-A 20-year-old COVID-19 survivor in Chicago had a lung transplant that was necessary to treat a condition now being called post-COVID fibrosis.]

 

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/lifelong-lung-damage-the-serious-covid-19-complication-that-can-hit-people-in-their-20s#Whos-at-risk?

 

We're all still learning, so even if I was a young person, I'd be vigilant.  We don't even know what we don't know.

[mommysboy]

2 hours ago, tribalfusion001 said:

It's clear in most countries who the demographics are of those dying, these people should be protected and everything else should be opened back up the same as before, no restrictions. Carrying on with social distancing and the restrictions on what can and cannot open will just stifle economies to the point of no return.

Quite so- this is or at least should be common sense to everyone.

[mommysboy]

52 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

I'd suggest over-eating and under-exercising is a worse risk to the future health of young people.

If the government wants to control where we go, might as well go the whole hog and control, how we travel, what we eat and how much we exercise as well.

 

How many lives would be saved if RTAs, obesity and heart disease were eliminated?

And indeed Covid19 lives too.

[7fish]

19 hours ago, riclag said:

In the meantime this virus is disabling life for many people!

the reaction to the virus is disabling life for many people would be more accurate.

[7fish]

1 hour ago, mommysboy said:

It's clear in most countries who the demographics are of those dying, these people should be protected and everything else should be opened back up the same as before, no restrictions. Carrying on with social distancing and the restrictions on what can and cannot open will just stifle economies to the point of no return.

which is what Sweden did, and they are fairing no worse than any country with lockdown,... except they still have an economy.

[tomazbodner]

What the <deleted>...

 

 

Is this doctors speaking or the politicians speaking?

 

I do not know where this video came from, it was sent to me by colleague, but the same named article appeared on CNN 20 days ago, so it seems this is from early June, but that article refutes a lot of it...

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/08/health/coronavirus-asymptomatic-spread-who-bn/index.html

 

Edited June 29, 2020 by tomazbodner
added link to CNN

[tribalfusion001]

2 hours ago, Berkshire said:

You're making the assumption that COVID only threatens the older and/or those with underlying conditions.  That the young and healthy folks can just get over it like the common cold.  But early studies indicate that COVID patients, including the young/healthy folks, may suffer from long term respiratory and cardiac damage, among other things.  Regardless, I'd rather not take that chance if I can avoid it.   

The stats are pretty clear now, avoiding other people and choosing not to use non essential shops/bars/restaurants will just lead to them closing for good.

[geriatrickid]

4 hours ago, GinBoy2 said:

It's an interesting question.

 

I was listening to a discussion regarding the pandemic in Latin America, and this probably rings true in Thailand.

 

When talking about Brazil, 70% of the workforce is in the 'informal' economy, so it's day laborers, not in any tax situation_, not dissimilar to Thailand.

 

So those folks are in a dilemma. They aren't eligible for any State benefits, so self isolation, work at home just isn't an option.

 

You need to work to eat.

 

What the answer to that is, is a much bigger question, which after this nightmare is over will have to be addressed

Thailand has provided billions of baht for the  marginalized segment. I provided an extensive recap of the money made available on page 2.

[JackThompson]

2 hours ago, Berkshire said:

"Infinitesimal?"  I don't know where you're getting your information, but I wouldn't be so certain.  COVID is new, but there's massive studies going on at the moment.  For instance...

 

[-Severe cases of COVID-19 can cause lasting damage to the lungs that may necessitate surgery or even organ transplants.

-While the majority of COVID-19 deaths have occurred in people who are older, fibrosis cases show that even young people who survive the disease can have lasting complications.

-A 20-year-old COVID-19 survivor in Chicago had a lung transplant that was necessary to treat a condition now being called post-COVID fibrosis.]

 

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/lifelong-lung-damage-the-serious-covid-19-complication-that-can-hit-people-in-their-20s#Whos-at-risk?

 

We're all still learning, so even if I was a young person, I'd be vigilant.  We don't even know what we don't know.

I have seen the mortality statistics, and it's very clear.  Sickness for the young is rare.  Hospitalizations of the young for covid are extremely rare.  And of those, a small fraction are fatal.  For the young and healthy - better not get out of bed, if this is considered 'scary'.

[geriatrickid]

10 minutes ago, 7fish said:

which is what Sweden did, and they are fairing no worse than any country with lockdown,... except they still have an economy.

So does Denmark, Canada, Australia and many others. 

The issue is not  the  number of deaths but the direct impact it has on people who are in the economy; When these people become ill they are typically off work for more than 14 days. This is a highly infectious disease, and it means that when it spreads,  a large part of the workforce will be infected with debilitating symptoms. This then requires forced isolation, to prevent the spread otherwise whole operations collapse. Current examples are food processing facilities and factories.  The measures implemented are intended to keep the economy  operating. 

[tribalfusion001]

2 minutes ago, geriatrickid said:

So does Denmark, Canada, Australia and many others. 

The issue is not  the  number of deaths but the direct impact it has on people who are in the economy; When these people become ill they are typically off work for more than 14 days. This is a highly infectious disease, and it means that when it spreads,  a large part of the workforce will be infected with debilitating symptoms. This then requires forced isolation, to prevent the spread otherwise whole operations collapse. Current examples are food processing facilities and factories.  The measures implemented are intended to keep the economy  operating. 

Retail is collapsing by people too scared to enter non essential shops. I've had a look around my local high street and there not many people around. Most of the small shops are closed early, lack of trade I suppose and when the pubs/restaurants open from the 4th they are bookings only.

[7fish]

19 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

 

However, I do note that  Trump has been emphasizing that there will be a rash of suicides due to the economic situation. This is his new talking point which you have  obviously lapped up and now regurgitate for us here.  Please share with us the data in respect to this explosion of death.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1287630/suicide-attempts-elderly-people-coronavirus-lockdown

'medics have seen as many suicide attempts in the past two months as they did in the previous year.'

https://www.rt.com/news/488070-australia-us-coronavirus-suicide-spike/

'Lockdown-inspired suicides on course to DWARF coronavirus deaths in Australia & in time, even in US – studies'

'A spike in suicides triggered by Covid-19 lockdowns is expected to exceed deaths from the actual virus by a factor of 10 in Australia, according to researchers from Sydney University’s Brain and Mind Center, who published their findings on Thursday.'

 

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/california-doctors-say-theyve-seen-more-deaths-from-suicide-than-coronavirus-since-lockdowns

 

“The numbers are unprecedented,” Dr. Michael deBoisblanc of John Muir Medical Center in Walnut Creek, California, told ABC 7 News about the increase of deaths by suicide, adding that he’s seen a “year’s worth of suicides” in the last four weeks alone.

 

 

and on and on and on, ....    You don't need to be a genius to realise a link between an economic depression and suicide rate increase. Sadly a lot of people who kill themselves are of an age group practically unaffected by this flu virus

 

 

 

 

 

[tomazbodner]

30 minutes ago, tomazbodner said:

What the <deleted>...

 

 

 

Is this doctors speaking or the politicians speaking?

 

I do not know where this video came from, it was sent to me by colleague, but the same named article appeared on CNN 20 days ago, so it seems this is from early June, but that article refutes a lot of it...

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/08/health/coronavirus-asymptomatic-spread-who-bn/index.html

 

Yes, of course she backtracked on it...

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/09/who-expert-backtracks-after-saying-asymptomatic-transmission-very-rare

 

Ignore the top. Can't edit it anymore to remove it. But it shows the absolute zig zag of advices and "research" that WHO is doing. I am appalled at their flip flopping when it comes to people's lives at stake.

[7fish]

7 hours ago, brain150 said:

If you bother to look at the real Science that is available [... or not !]

then you get a different picture.

This is true, and a lot of people are waking up to the fact they have been duped, unfortunately though the fear porn broadcasts by the likes of BBC have been very effective on those who rely on such agencies for their 'news'

[tomazbodner]

17 minutes ago, tribalfusion001 said:

Retail is collapsing by people too scared to enter non essential shops. I've had a look around my local high street and there not many people around. Most of the small shops are closed early, lack of trade I suppose and when the pubs/restaurants open from the 4th they are bookings only.

Maybe retailers are suffering but they were on the way down for a while, Covid only accelerated that. At the flip side, online retailers and food delivery were never doing better...

 

[Bkk Brian]

23 hours ago, steelepulse said:

I would love to hear your plans on how to feed unemployed people, how you plan to pay their rent, how you are going to deal with suicides due to unemployment, no food, no housing and all the wonderful things that go along with people experiencing what they are currently dealing with at the moment.

I think the problems may have been worse for the above people if lock-downs had not occurred according to this newly published study that has already been peer reviewed.

 

The effect of large-scale anti-contagion policies on the COVID-19 pandemic

 

In the first peer-reviewed analysis of local, regional and national policies, the researchers found that travel restrictions, business and school closures, shelter-in-place orders and other non-pharmaceutical interventions averted roughly 530 million COVID-19 infections across the six countries in the study period ending April 6. Of these infections, 62 million would likely have been “confirmed cases,” given limited testing in each country.

 

https://news.berkeley.edu/2020/06/08/emergency-covid-19-measures-prevented-more-than-500-million-infections-study-finds/

 

[paulikens]

7 hours ago, Berkshire said:

Your logic is rather misleading.  The only people who can order a lockdown are--surprise--government officials.  Truth is, nobody wants a lockdown.  But the government has a mandate to protect its citizens, number one being health and safety.  If they do nothing and a pandemic overwhelms the hospitals, who will you blame? 

 

As for expats with a fat pension, I may resemble that description and I sure as heck didn't want a lockdown.  No one wants a lockdown.  But frankly, I'm glad the Thai government took control and minimized the damage.  Thailand has done a heck of a better job than my home country, the USA. 

you have proved his point then. you are a ex pat with a fat pension who is advocating the extension of a lockdown as he didnt say you wanted a lockdown .   also a mandate to protect its citzens...yet do nothing about the 6000 deaths on the road already this year. its a power trip for the PM nothing more than that.

Edited June 29, 2020 by paulikens

[geriatrickid]

4 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

I have seen the mortality statistics, and it's very clear.  Sickness for the young is rare.  Hospitalizations of the young for covid are extremely rare.  And of those, a small fraction are fatal.  For the young and healthy - better not get out of bed, if this is considered 'scary'.

You are mixing mortality with illness. Because one does not die, does not mean that one emerges from the illness unscathed. Nor does pointing out that we are in the early stages of a serious  infectious disease and that data is still developing  necessitate a doom and gloom scenario.  You want instant answers  and make instant assumptions. That is not how chronic health care conditions are identified.  Perhaps some of the observed lung damage will heal. however, what we do know is that once a person has a serious lung infection, that person is more susceptible to other lung infections. There is a  summation of physical damage. This is nothing new.  We see it every day with  sun damage to the skin. It is incremental until the body can no longer compensate.

 

Your logic brings to mind the arguments used by the tobacco industry when it claimed there was no link between tobacco smoking and lung damage. They wanted proof.

 

You are using simplistic explanations for  complex  outcomes. Some people see that a lot of fatalities involve elderly people and have assumed that these people are dead because they are old. Well, what we know is that surviving infection has a relationship to the viral load a patient is exposed to. If the initial exposure is 'light' and the patient is not repeatedly exposed, the patient has a greater likelihood of survival.  A majority of the elderly patients who have died have a common characteristic; They were in high density accommodation and where infectious disease protocols were not followed. These people were repeatedly exposed. The  200+ health workers who have died in the UK were repeatedly exposed to the virus. Those workers were often overworked due to the large number of patients they were caring for.  The deaths of these  health workers in this number has not been seen in the past century.  Young people have not had the same exposure, and because of that, their case characteristics have been different. Now we are seeing a surge in the number of the young who are infected and with that surge are a greater number of complications.

 

In respect to the   impact on young people. you expect an instant  answer.  You want numbers. Well, the numbers are still being gathered. All that is available is observational evidence. Dr. John Kinnear, is an experienced physician with  experience with epidemics. He is also Dean of medicine at ARU. He had these observations. https://theprint.in/health/asymptomatic-covid-19-patients-can-still-develop-lung-damage/449337/

 

His views are consistent with what has been observed elsewhere and  widely reported.

 https://www.bbc.com/news/health-53065340

 

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/what-coronavirus-does-to-the-lungs

 

[JackThompson]

5 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

I think the problems may have been worse for the above people if lock-downs had not occurred according to this newly published study that has already been peer reviewed.

 

The effect of large-scale anti-contagion policies on the COVID-19 pandemic

 

In the first peer-reviewed analysis of local, regional and national policies, the researchers found that travel restrictions, business and school closures, shelter-in-place orders and other non-pharmaceutical interventions averted roughly 530 million COVID-19 infections across the six countries in the study period ending April 6. Of these infections, 62 million would likely have been “confirmed cases,” given limited testing in each country.

 

https://news.berkeley.edu/2020/06/08/emergency-covid-19-measures-prevented-more-than-500-million-infections-study-finds/

 

Same type of academic "peers" who said the "protests" in the USA should not be stopped ... execpt for anti-lockdown protests?  I don't mock academic-methods in general - can be useful in purely scientific fields; but this has a heavy political-angle.  Throw in the influence of "grant money" from the likes of the Gates Foundation and similar, and  "academia" - much less the "Global Policy Lab at UC Berkeley" - is completely untrustworthy for such an analysis.