All About Lose Of Face

[Templer]

My Wife is on a long Holiday back with the family in Udon Thani,

while the children are young, I sugested that the children and herself

stayed with her family for 3 months, as when they get to school age

this will not be possible,

So far they have been there for 2 of the 3 months, tonight I get a phone call, telling me that

her Father has kicked the crap out of her,

The reason is from what I can gather, my wife has made her family loose face,

She has met up with some old school friends (male) and gone out for a drink at the local

bar with them,Nothing untoward has happened,My son was with her at the time playing with the Bar owners childeren,

Father has seen red and punished her.also hurt my son accidently in the process,

Now I have to arrange some flights so that I can bring them all home.

I am very very angry at his reaction in my opinoin is way over the top.

When I get to Udon I want to punish him for his actions, but as a farlang I know I can not.

(fight fire with fire) any sugestions as what I can do.

Sorry if this does not may 100% sense but the red mist is still with me

I will be flying out from the UK on Tuesday, from the UK, and want to sort the problem out, one way or another, before we return.

Thanks

Templer

[Jimjim]

Interesting dilemma. I think her parents' concerns were founded and in the right, but obviously his methods were absolutely wrong. I wasn't there so I can't really comment for sure.

If there was a big group including old girl friends, it may seem extreme for them to be mad. But if she was only with men, I can understand their sensibility but violence is surely not sensible.

[sutnyod]

I have the feeling the father expects you to share his view. Take that into account.

[Templer]

Iagree with what you say Jimjim but as I said my son was with her at the time so nothing untoward was going to happen,

I can understand what her father was thinking, may be he was thinking of me losing face I don't know, probaly more in terms of the family losing face,

But to kick her black and blue is something I can not accept.

Thus my delema, of what to say or do when I arrive in Udon.

[Jimjim]

Sure I see your point.

I suggest you deal with a violent man how most trained in the martial arts would. Peacefully, and without direct confrontation.

[rtaxron]

My Wife is on a long Holiday back with the family in Udon Thani,

while the children are young, I sugested that the children and herself

stayed with her family for 3 months, as when they get to school age

this will not be possible,

So far they have been there for 2 of the 3 months, tonight I get a phone call, telling me that

her Father has kicked the crap out of her,

The reason is from what I can gather, my wife has made her family loose face,

She has met up with some old school friends (male) and gone out for a drink at the local

bar with them,Nothing untoward has happened,My son was with her at the time playing with the Bar owners childeren,

Father has seen red and punished her.also hurt my son accidently in the process,

Now I have to arrange some flights so that I can bring them all home.

I am very very angry at his reaction in my opinoin is way over the top.

When I get to Udon I want to punish him for his actions, but as a farlang I know I can not.

(fight fire with fire) any sugestions as what I can do.

Sorry if this does not may 100% sense but the red mist is still with me

I will be flying out from the UK on Tuesday, from the UK, and want to sort the problem out, one way or another, before we return.

Thanks

Templer

Be careful Templer, they dont understand our culture so her father may think she is being disrespectful to his Family, unaware to what your wife has been used to in UK. Send me a PM and phone number if you want to chat before you go, i dont live to far from you, I have experienced this myself.

[PhilHarries]

Agreeing with Jimjim I would add take the father aside alone and listen to his version of events there are always two sides to a story.

Whatever transpires do not resort to violence you will NOT win. Tell him in your culture only a lowly coward of a man would hit a woman particularly his daughter and his standing in your eyes is diminished.

[britmaveric]

Well you only know her version of events....maybe there is more to this???? Any rate kicking the crap out of her was out of line I might add.

[DrFisher]

I agree the action was the wrong one how ever in many if not most Asia cultures it is unacceptable for a married woman to go to a bar with anyone other than her husband or close family member. As far as having children in bars that's another story it's not legal in my country and I think it's a bad idea even if they are having fun and playing but that's just my 25 stang.

[sceadugenga]

Agreeing with Jimjim I would add take the father aside alone and listen to his version of events there are always two sides to a story.

Whatever transpires do not resort to violence you will NOT win. Tell him in your culture only a lowly coward of a man would hit a woman particularly his daughter and his standing in your eyes is diminished.

I'd think the language and cultural barriers would make this difficult Phil. All of us who live in Thai society, particularly outside of Bangkok have an ongoing struggle within the family unit.

The father would have considered her under his control and it his responsibility to make her "behave" while away from her husband. He would be incapable of seeing that a drink with a group of male friends could possibly be innocent, whether the child was there of not. Traditional Thai women do not drink alone with a group of men.

When she came home there would have been a confrontation, possibly she argued with him and he attacked her. If the man has a history of domestic violence and assaulting his daughters it seems unusual for the OP to allow his wife to stay there for three months. To me it seems that it was a situation that could have been avoided, or defused, by the wife.

In no way am I suggesting that any woman who back chats her father or husband deserves to be assaulted, but this is Thailand.

I'd be interested to hear what the wife's solution to this is, and whether she has reconsidered her original version of events by the time Templer arrives in Thailand.

[Ulysses G.]

There is a very good chance that her father knows her a LOT better than you do. Don't look a gift-horse in the mouth.

[a2396]

I certainly do not agree with such a physical attack, but it is encouraging to see he aparently cares about the social status of her marriage to you. In many case I know, the family could care less if the woman wants to have some extra-cirricular liason with another man, as long as the farang is forking over the money.

[sutnyod]

Another aspect: whatever has happened and for whatever reason and however you might feel about it, please don't forget one of the main reasons women marry: for protection. I talk to Thai women a lot and the main opinion they have about Farang men (generally) is that even though most are old, not nice to look at, smell bad and might have bad manners, there is one thing they have going for them: they are rarely violent towards their wives.

It is encouraging to see that you are prepared to take your wife's side. You should stick to that by all means (at least in the open). Otherwise it would not only a loss of face for her, but also a loss of faith....

[Khutan]

Agreeing with Jimjim I would add take the father aside alone and listen to his version of events there are always two sides to a story.

Whatever transpires do not resort to violence you will NOT win. Tell him in your culture only a lowly coward of a man would hit a woman particularly his daughter and his standing in your eyes is diminished.

Great post.

[jeebusjones]

I'm not condoning the beating by any means, it was a horrible, barbaric thing to do.

But one has to wonder if there's a bit more to the story than just an innocent drink with friends. The simple fact that the child was present means nothing.

[Jimmyd]

Agreeing with Jimjim I would add take the father aside alone and listen to his version of events there are always two sides to a story.

Whatever transpires do not resort to violence you will NOT win. Tell him in your culture only a lowly coward of a man would hit a woman particularly his daughter and his standing in your eyes is diminished.

Great post.

I disagree. Calling the father a coward, even indirectly, might lead to unforeseen complications--for example a bad future relationship, possibly even violence. I think removing the wife from the situation and making sure the opportunity for violence never occurs again is the best option. I doubt I would even talk to the father about it.

[LivinLOS]

The beating was clearly wrong..

However in my experience Thai women dont go and have 'innocent drinks' with male friends in bars (unaccompanied).. She knows this too..

[Ulysses G.]

The beating was clearly wrong..

However in my experience Thai women dont go and have 'innocent drinks' with male friends in bars (unaccompanied).. She knows this too..

EXACTLY!

[torngseea]

Agreeing with Jimjim I would add take the father aside alone and listen to his version of events there are always two sides to a story.

Whatever transpires do not resort to violence you will NOT win. Tell him in your culture only a lowly coward of a man would hit a woman particularly his daughter and his standing in your eyes is diminished.

Great post.

I disagree. Calling the father a coward, even indirectly, might lead to unforeseen complications--for example a bad future relationship, possibly even violence. I think removing the wife from the situation and making sure the opportunity for violence never occurs again is the best option. I doubt I would even talk to the father about it.

I agree with JimmyD's disagreement. I've seen a lot of domestic violence in my wife's family. We had a call last night that Por's latest wife is leaving him because he beat her up.

It will be next to impossible for you to have a fruitful exchange of views over this with your father-in-law. He will not change. Removal from the situation and future avoidance is the best course of action. Your wife has to take some of the responsibility, she knows her father and her culture - a few years in the UK may have changed her a little but rural Thailand remains the same. Also, you may find that 'kicking the crap' out of her was an overstatement of what took place.

I recommend gentleness instead of anger. If you were there when it happened you could of intervened but there is not a lot you can do retrospectively other than support your wife and honor your father-in-law.

[kmart]

The beating was clearly wrong..

However in my experience Thai women dont go and have 'innocent drinks' with male friends in bars (unaccompanied).. She knows this too..

EXACTLY!

Dead right. Father in law was maybe (albeit misguidedly) doing your "job" for you... The OP's beef might not be with him?

[Maizefarmer]

My Wife is on a long Holiday back with the family in Udon Thani,

while the children are young, I sugested that the children and herself

stayed with her family for 3 months, as when they get to school age

this will not be possible,

So far they have been there for 2 of the 3 months, tonight I get a phone call, telling me that

her Father has kicked the crap out of her,

The reason is from what I can gather, my wife has made her family loose face,

She has met up with some old school friends (male) and gone out for a drink at the local

bar with them,Nothing untoward has happened,My son was with her at the time playing with the Bar owners childeren,

Father has seen red and punished her.also hurt my son accidently in the process,

Now I have to arrange some flights so that I can bring them all home.

I am very very angry at his reaction in my opinoin is way over the top.

When I get to Udon I want to punish him for his actions, but as a farlang I know I can not.

(fight fire with fire) any sugestions as what I can do.

Sorry if this does not may 100% sense but the red mist is still with me

I will be flying out from the UK on Tuesday, from the UK, and want to sort the problem out, one way or another, before we return.

Thanks

Templer

Married close on 20 years to a Thai girl - and have lived in Thailand with her and our children all the time - so heres my advice.

I suggest you keep your cool and just bring the family home if that is what you wish.

Then if need be, try and establish discreetly through a 3rd party what dad's take on the situation was - as somone else has said, it's a little odd (but not impossible) that he has re-acted so strongly to what you have been told was a perfectly innocent encounter. By the same token, I find it odd that your wife would be confiding in you about this if it was anything else other than completly innocent.

And as always is the case - there is always 3 sides to these stories: first his, then hers - and then the truth!

But whatever - keep a straight face, stay your cool and treat Pa as you always have - however looked at, there's little doubt he was batting for you (even if he did get it wrong this time).

MF

Edited April 21, 2007 by Maizefarmer

[Gumballl]

I cannot believe what I am reading. It seems that many of you insist that Thais have a right to commit violence against each other because of some cultural thing. That's a load of BS.

The OP should go to Thailand to collect his wife immediately, and then tell off the father. If the father loses face, then so what. He is just a person, not deserving of any more respect than anyone else, including his own daughter.

[swanks]

I take the view that 'when in Rome....'

If you want western values and ways of doing things then fine ! But if you or she are under his roof then his ways , and the ways of rural Thais, must be respected.

Would you like him to come to your country and tell you you are wrong in your ways?

I would personally go orbital if my wife were to bring disgrace to me and our family by going drinking with a group of men in a bar.It would be vocal I admit ,but would involve a long and very frank exchange of views and her father did suggest that the occasional arse slap might keep her in line if it proved necessary!

It is truthfully quit a disgrace that she thought it was OK but I suspect she did not, and just thought she could 'get away with it ' as you were so far away.

On the other hand , as I accept Thai ways , if I wish to go to a bar with my friends or Thai family menfolk that happens to have 'bar maids' ,then that's fine . My wife thinks so too .It is simply the Thai way of doing things.

If we wish to integrate here then we really do have to take on the country's ways , however badly the western lib storm troopers think of them .

Do we not criticize Muslims in the west for not becoming a true citizen ? It would seem just the same thing to me .

The father may or may not have gone 'over the top' but you might be well served by keeping an open mind until you have the full facts.

In some ways I do feel he was serving your interests in his own way , and not allowing his daughter to be seen as a tart!

If you don't like it , then I might suggest you minimize contact with Thai people and set up home in one of the Fallang ghettos here !

Feel free to flame away good people , I do not think the more PC amongst you will like my thoughts on this !

Edited April 21, 2007 by swanks

[Gary A]

I'm not making light of the situation but before you cause problems within the family it would be best to get some very accurate details. What exactly is a beating? Was your wife disrespectful to her father? Perhaps she has forgotten too much of her native culture.

For example, my dog is well behaved and when people ask how my wife trained him, my wife will tell them she beats him. In that case a beating is one of those little short handled brooms with the fluffy weeds on the end. You couldn't bruise a peach with that broom.

[Flysiam]

Agreeing with Jimjim I would add take the father aside alone and listen to his version of events there are always two sides to a story.

Whatever transpires do not resort to violence you will NOT win. Tell him in your culture only a lowly coward of a man would hit a woman particularly his daughter and his standing in your eyes is diminished.

Great post.

Agree as well.. I would also wait to see and hear the rest of the story... rather than rush to jusdgment - exactly what did this 'beating' consist of?

[Head Snake]

Why would a group of men want to go out to a bar with somebody's wife?

I can see for work; but not for innocent chatter.

I really can't see myself asking some guys wife to a bar even if I was with a group of dudes who knew or know her.

[kmart]

I cannot believe what I am reading. It seems that many of you insist that Thais have a right to commit violence against each other because of some cultural thing. That's a load of BS.

The OP should go to Thailand to collect his wife immediately, and then tell off the father. If the father loses face, then so what. He is just a person, not deserving of any more respect than anyone else, including his own daughter.

As it actually is vs. how it should be? PC is not big out here amongst the local population, I'm afraid...

[Crossy]

I must admit that my first reaction would be to take the father aside, and then beat seven types of cr@p out of him.

THIS WOULD NOT BE A SMART MOVE.

Assuming you don't speak Thai (or to honest, even if you do) I doubt you'll ever really get to the bottom of it. Probably best to leave well alone as others have advised.

Take your family away somewhere, consider cutting off any allowance you may (or may not) be paying to the in-laws. It's unfair to cut your wife off from her family, but I don't see any way around it if you want to avoid further violence.

[eljeque]

I cannot see why she would go to a bar (I never do) to have a drink (I never do) with Thai men who used to be friends of hers before she met you, went to England and had your children.

As SHE is married to YOU, SHE is YOUR wife, and not HIS daughter. I am sure that you provided some form or assistance to her family for the marriage. That was the handing over of the daughter to you from the family. HE just got into YOUR business when it was not HIS business to get into.

YOU support HER, HE doesn't. It is YOU who would lose face moreso than HIM for her going out with others.

It is wrong to assume that he did this to keep her in line and so as not to risk your learning about her going out; becoming angry and cutting off funds to him and his family. None of us on the board have an idea of the finaicial status of her family nor your arrangements with them.

If she could pack up the kids and return home, then have her do so without your coming to Thailand. If not, and you have to pick her up, then it may be in your best interests to have her meet you in the main city near her smaller town, so for you to avoid seeing her father or the house. Take her side first and foremost, see how she looks, and much later ask about who she went to see and why.... or drop it and do not return to her city again.

Western men and women can know each other and spend time together without having a sexual relationship. That is not common in Asia, nor even believed.

I wish you the best of luck.

[cmsally]

I can't believe how many people are saying it's OK to beat someone up or keep quiet maybe the father was right etc.

Whether you are in Thailand or wherever, domestic violence is wrong full stop. Keeping quiet about it is going to make it worse.

No one in my husbands family bashes any one and they are all Thai, its the same as anywhere people either do it or they don't . Nobody stops them and then the younger generation see it and the pattern continues.

It happens only because the perpetrator thinks they can get away with it and has not been forced to find ways to control their anger or redirect it.

And I know this is Thailand but often this loss of face thing is just used as an excuse.

Quiet frankly if it was me I would go turn the argument round on him and tell him that I had lost face because my father-in - law was a cowardly woman basher. Whatever your wife has done is now beside the point , whatever it was it was no excuse for physical violence.