Hong Kong man accused of terrorism in first use of new China security law

[Morch]

6 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

As I understand, the protests began as a result of an Extradition Bill which would have allowed Hong Kong to detain and transfer people to Taiwan and China who were wanted in those countries because they had supposedly committed a crime, and who were taking refuge in Hong Kong.

 

The legislation was proposed because of the then current situation of a Hong Kong man who was wanted in Taiwan for the murder of his girlfriend, but Hong Kong had no formal extradition agreement with Taiwan.

 

It was this proposed legislation that sparked the riots because critics of the legislation suggested that the law would allow virtually anyone in Hong Kong who had committed any sort of crime to be arrested and sent to China, if China requested that.

 

However, after several months of protests against this Extradition Bill, Carrie Lam eventually withdrew the bill, on 23 October. This would have been an opportunity for the protesters to accept a success, and stop rioting. But they didn't. They wanted more. They wanted Carrie Lam to resign.
 

 

And your point being? That the protestors were not wise? Overreached themselves? Were rightly angry with Lam? Felt threatened by the PRC moves and statements? That protests often have a way of getting out of hand?

 

Perhaps things would have panned differently if they would have managed to keep the protests peaceful, make do with limited achievements, and retain more realistic goals. Then again, I kinda doubt it would have changed much with regard to the PRC's ultimate response and endgame. Might have delayed it some is all. 

 

[Eric Loh]

24 minutes ago, holy cow cm said:

These laws not only effect all the good Hong Kong people, but all foreigners who are there or go for a holiday. It only takes one gesture or one word to get you in trouble. Just think if they heard you on the phone (eavesdropping) talking about how bad they are or that Hong Kong needs to be its own country. 

 

I for one have already boycotted Chinese products and will always talk openly about how Evil they are as you will never catch me flying through Hong Kong or going to China ever ever again. XI and his people are evil and if he dropped over dead tomorrow I might just have a party.

Why would any foreigners who are in Hong Kong as tourists want to violate the National Security Law by committing “act of treason, secession, sedition, or subversion against China, including the theft of state secrets and political activities of foreign organizations”. That is so fatuous. 
 

 

[VincentRJ]

4 hours ago, Walker88 said:

You may well be right, but I seem to remember a similar movement aimed at freedom and democracy somewhere around 244 years ago that did involve a little of what might be called 'bad behavior'.

 

See this:

 

"When in the course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them,.....whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it........ when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government"

 

More powerful, liberating and beautiful words were never written, and those who wrote them then did then engage in 'bad behavior' against their oppressors. Those who stand in the way of freedom and liberty sometimes have to be swept aside by whatever means are available, particularly when 'more civil' means simply do not exist. The people of Hong Kong were never given a choice. Maybe now some are finally daring to make a choice as to how they wish to be governed. They are exercising a basic human right...for freedom, self-governance and individual dignity.

 

More than half of the entire population of Hong Kong marched against beijing's oppression on a few of the big protest days. That kind of looks like a majority, and in the glorious concept of democracy---vs a self-appointed, answerable-to-no-one govt---majority rules.

 

Sometimes patience is not a virtue. Sometimes methods are required which, under normal circumstances, would seem uncivilized. That proved true in 1776, and may be as true today.

 

Sometimes, and for some people, it is preferable to die standing than serve on one's knees.

 

There are often both positives and negatives to any legislation and/or political system. The question to be answered is, 'Do the positives outweigh the negatives'? If they don't, then change the system. That's just plain common sense.

 

China's change from a Mao Tse Tung form of communism to its current form of communism which embraces capitalism, has resulted in the most rapid economic development in the history of mankind, as far as we know.

 

That success has depended on both political control and an intelligent understanding of what's required for increased prosperity. Anarchy and violent protests will reduce that prosperity.
 

[Morch]

Just now, Eric Loh said:

Why would any foreigners who are in Hong Kong as tourists want to violate the National Security Law by committing “act of treason, secession, sedition, or subversion against China, including the theft of state secrets and political activities of foreign organizations”. That is so fatuous. 
 

 

 

What's fatuous is pretending the PRC plays fair, or that their standards of human and civil rights relate to what's taken for granted in the West. Foreigners going to the PRC (and from now on, to HK as well) while intending to get involve with social activism and politics might be fair game (more so with regard to the latter). But as the PRC got little issues (ab)using such laws to apply pressure and coercion in the mainland, regardless of whether they were broken, the concern is legit.

[transam]

7 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

There are often both positives and negatives to any legislation and/or political system. The question to be answered is, 'Do the positives outweigh the negatives'? If they don't, then change the system. That's just plain common sense.

 

China's change from a Mao Tse Tung form of communism to its current form of communism which embraces capitalism, has resulted in the most rapid economic development in the history of mankind, as far as we know.

 

That success has depended on both political control and an intelligent understanding of what's required for increased prosperity. Anarchy and violent protests will reduce that prosperity.
 

But behind their closed doors, it is a Communist country, with  all the sh_t that goes with it...????

Time for world change, back to producing your own stuff and dealing with free countries.

[Eric Loh]

12 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

What's fatuous is pretending the PRC plays fair, or that their standards of human and civil rights relate to what's taken for granted in the West. Foreigners going to the PRC (and from now on, to HK as well) while intending to get involve with social activism and politics might be fair game (more so with regard to the latter). But as the PRC got little issues (ab)using such laws to apply pressure and coercion in the mainland, regardless of whether they were broken, the concern is legit.

When it comes to national security, all countries fall behind human and civil rights. Check up North Ireland and Catalonia human rights abuses. There are many more examples. Have to be realistic. 

 

[Morch]

6 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

When it comes to national security, all countries fall behind human and civil rights. Check up North Ireland and Catalonia human rights abuses. There are many more examples. Have to be realistic. 

 

 

Being realistic would mean acknowledging that the PRC is applying such measure on a whole different scale, and that their "national security" label is way wider than most countries'. If you feel that the whataboutist examples provided match the way the PRC practices things, we'll have to disagree.

[tifino]

5 hours ago, spiekerjozef said:

So China made the covid19 virus for Hong Kong.

To crush mass gatherings while they get it back under their wings.

Something did not go as planned...

yes but that was only Stage one.

Done

 

To Be Done:

 - Stage 2 was for the Mass Exodus of the infected Kongers worldwide, to spread it further amongst the decadent West ( to UK for example)

[Isaan sailor]

China will stop at nothing to control all of SE Asia.  If the West cannot stop them—maybe the people can.  Boycott all Made in China products.

[VincentRJ]

2 hours ago, transam said:

But behind their closed doors, it is a Communist country,

True. In a sense, they've got the best of both worlds; an efficient capitalist system, plus the political power to do what's best for the whole country instead of giving in to the concerns of minority groups, which we tend to do in the West.

[Morch]

9 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

True. In a sense, they've got the best of both worlds; an efficient capitalist system, plus the political power to do what's best for the whole country instead of giving in to the concerns of minority groups, which we tend to do in the West.

 

Even if one was inclined to accept them nonsense bits about "best for the whole country", and "giving in to the concerns of minority groups", there still remain the question of the price paid for these supposed achievements. Not something the PRC's cheerleaders on here tend to acknowledge, let alone discuss.

 

And no, the way the PRC deals with some of its minority groups got little to do with "concerns". I think it's gone quite a ways beyond concern, by now.

 

 

 

[samran]

7 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

They are free to protest peacefully.

Why don’t you try that out now in China, and let us know how it goes. If we don’t hear back from you, we will understand. 

[Deli]

Dictator Xi reached out to rule the world, by weapons and much more by ( fake ) buying power.

And by creating a virus and spreading it. TIme has come to boykot this system as much as possible.

[holy cow cm]

4 hours ago, Eric Loh said:

Why would any foreigners who are in Hong Kong as tourists want to violate the National Security Law by committing “act of treason, secession, sedition, or subversion against China, including the theft of state secrets and political activities of foreign organizations”. That is so fatuous. 
 

 

Think about this again. Foreigners have opinions. And if our opinions are heard, even just being basic conversation to anyone- even another foreigner or even being heard of you talking on the phone, then it is an act against their policy. Get it?

[NightSky]

10 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

"Police say 23-year-old Tong Ying-kit rammed and injured some officers at an illegal protest on Wednesday. A video online showed a motorbike knocking over several officers on a narrow street before the driver falls over and is arrested."

 

Surely anyone should be arrested in any civilized country for knocking people over on a narrow street whilst driving a motorbike. That's very bad behaviour. ????

Even if it was in the name of freedom and to show the oppressors that he does not fear them?

 

I would have to disagree.

 

[ChouDoufu]

10 hours ago, Morch said:

 

They were not free to protest. They protested anyway. And, indeed, it was peaceful to begin with. As for the "I doubt that this new law would have been considered necessary" bit, you are aware how and why these protests started, right?

 

i read that the new law was required under the handover agreement.

haven't read the text of the agreement, so unsure how it's worded.  is hong kong government required to enact the law, and if they don't, is the national government permitted/required to do it?

 

[Traubert]

3 hours ago, Isaan sailor said:

China will stop at nothing to control all of SE Asia.  If the West cannot stop them—maybe the people can.  Boycott all Made in China products.

What did you type that on?

[VincentRJ]

46 minutes ago, NightSky said:

Even if it was in the name of freedom and to show the oppressors that he does not fear them?

 

I would have to disagree.

 

The Chinese seem quite free to me. Chinese tourist are all over the place because so many of them have been lifted out of poverty and can now afford to travel overseas.

 

When I visited China a couple of years ago, I was very impressed with the good organization of the cities and the friendliness of the people in the places I visited, such as Shantou, Xian, Hangzhou, and the Yellow Mountains.

 

I didn't employ any guide and was able to travel around easily and economically on comfortable electric public buses which were more advanced than the buses I sometimes use in Australia.

 

The Yellow Mountains in Huangshan were a delight. The walking tracks through the forests and mountains were very well maintained with concrete steps along the steep parts, and people employed to clear up the litter from the rubbish bins along the tracks.

 

However, it's true that the people in China are not free to insult their President, a bit like people in Thailand are not free to insult the King.

[VincentRJ]

3 hours ago, samran said:

Why don’t you try that out now in China, and let us know how it goes. If we don’t hear back from you, we will understand. 

I've already done so. When I was in Hangzhou a couple of years ago I paid for a day's tour in a local tourist bus, to visit the surrounding temples. There were extra charges that applied when visiting certain areas or certain parts of the temple complexes.

 

Towards the end of the trip, during a conversation with a Chinese tourist, while walking around a temple complex, I found out that I had been charged for a visit to a location I had never made.

 

At the end of the journey, at the bus station, I protested to the manager that I had been overcharged by the female guide on the bus. No problem. The money was refunded with great apologies. ????

[ChouDoufu]

17 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

The Chinese seem quite free to me. Chinese tourist are all over the place because so many of them have been lifted out of poverty and can now afford to travel overseas.

 

When I visited China a couple of years ago, I was very impressed with the good organization of the cities and the friendliness of the people in the places I visited, such as Shantou, Xian, Hangzhou, and the Yellow Mountains.

 

I didn't employ any guide and was able to travel around easily and economically on comfortable electric public buses which were more advanced than the buses I sometimes use in Australia.

 

The Yellow Mountains in Huangshan were a delight. The walking tracks through the forests and mountains were very well maintained with concrete steps along the steep parts, and people employed to clear up the litter from the rubbish bins along the tracks.

 

However, it's true that the people in China are not free to insult their President, a bit like people in Thailand are not free to insult the King.

 

visiting any place as a tourist doesn't always provide a clear understanding of the political or social system.  china's national surveillance system is massive, but almost invisible to normal humans. 

 

you don't normally see stormtroopers marching through the streets, there aren't riot police stationed on every corner, and you don't often get stopped for "papers, please."  it's an all-encompassing system that collects every conceivable bit of mundane information on citizens, where everything is linked to the national identity card.  cameras are omnipresent, linked to databases with highly-advanced facial recognition and number-plate recognition.  they track your phone by gps, monitor your conversations, and track your social media postings.  they know what websites you visit, they know what you've purchased by alipay, they know what pharmacy you've been to and what you were prescribed.

 

it's all in the background.  citizens rarely have encounters with the police, other than for routine paperwork.  think DMV on steroids.  live your live, keep your head down, and you'll have no problems.

 

as a tourist you'll be herded through the scenic and historic sights, stay in foreigner-approved hotels, travel on most public transport.  problems start when you want/need to do things that require a chinese ID card.  things like staying at the many hotels that are not approved for foreigners, buying a sim card, using bus/train ticket machines, using internet at an internet cafe, exchanging/sending money, and buying gasoline (if you manage to procure a drivers license).

[ExpatOilWorker]

13 hours ago, Eric Loh said:

Why would any foreigners who are in Hong Kong as tourists want to violate the National Security Law by committing “act of treason, secession, sedition, or subversion against China, including the theft of state secrets and political activities of foreign organizations”. That is so fatuous. 
 

 

Ask the 2 Canadians that are currently rotting up in jail in China.

They had done nothing wrong until the Chinese needed a couple of bargain chips.

[VincentRJ]

7 hours ago, ChouDoufu said:

as a tourist you'll be herded through the scenic and historic sights, stay in foreigner-approved hotels, travel on most public transport. 

I did not experience any herding when I was a tourist a couple of years ago. I walked around every location I stayed at, through the byways and local parks, taking photos of anything that grabbed my interest and attention, and poking my nose here and there. I booked my own hotels through the internet, using my own personal laptop which I always include in my suitcase or backpack whenever I travel overseas.

 

I traveled by local buses or taxis, or simply walking. One of the hotels I stayed at, in Huangshan near the Yellow Mountains, was a small but very nice family run business. The owner was very friendly and helpful and drove me around to many of near-by sites that I wanted to visit.

 

However, one thing that annoyed me was the discovery that I couldn't access Google on my laptop. But that was a short-lived problem. I found someone who was able to install VPN (Virtual Private Network) on my laptop.

 

it's an all-encompassing system that collects every conceivable bit of mundane information on citizens, where everything is linked to the national identity card.  cameras are omnipresent, linked to databases with highly-advanced facial recognition and number-plate recognition.  they track your phone by gps, monitor your conversations, and track your social media postings.  they know what websites you visit, they know what you've purchased by alipay, they know what pharmacy you've been to and what you were prescribed.

 

That's the sort of thing that also occurs in Australia, through Google and Facebook and other means, although I accept that the Chinese might be doing that more efficiently and comprehensively, as they do with most things. ????

 

For example, if I do a search on the internet in Australia, say for reviews of a particular model of camera, or the best price, the next time I visit the ThaiVisa site I'll see ads popping up frequently for the same and similar models of camera.

 

A degree of surveillance and monitoring are required to reduce crime and corruption and keep the public safe. If you are not misbehaving, why should you worry?

[transam]

13 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

True. In a sense, they've got the best of both worlds; an efficient capitalist system, plus the political power to do what's best for the whole country instead of giving in to the concerns of minority groups, which we tend to do in the West.

But in the west we don't dispose of those who disagree, do we..?

[pineapple01]

6 minutes ago, transam said:

But in the west we don't dispose of those who disagree, do we..?

 

6 minutes ago, transam said:

But in the west we don't dispose of those who disagree, do we..?

Islamic Nutters seem to.

[DB58]

21 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

They are free to protest peacefully. Knocking people down and causing injury, whether they are police or not, is never allowed.

Agreed, but should be charged with maybe, reckless driving, reckless endangerment? Rather than terrorism? So perhaps more to this story than we are allowed to see coming from China? 

[VincentRJ]

58 minutes ago, transam said:

But in the west we don't dispose of those who disagree, do we..?

We did in the past. We even burnt people alive and pulled their limbs apart if they disagreed with the religious/government views.

 

The Chinese government currently seems very much against the spread of Islam, and I think the treatment of a certain number of Uighurs in certain camps might be unfair and reprehensible, but I don't have all the facts. One shouldn't automatically trust the news reports.

 

In any case, Islam is a major problem in many countries, and I'm not surprised that China is addressing the issue before it becomes a major problem in their own country.

[VincentRJ]

3 minutes ago, DB58 said:

Agreed, but should be charged with maybe, reckless driving, reckless endangerment? Rather than terrorism? So perhaps more to this story than we are allowed to see coming from China? 

One should always address the cause of a misdemeanor. Was the driving reckless because the person was drunk, or was he just an unskilled driver without a license, or was it a deliberate attempt to cause mayhem for the purpose of a political protest which could endanger people's lives.

 

I suspect all these factors with be considered during the trial.

[hotchilli]

On 7/4/2020 at 11:53 AM, TacoKhun said:

I have been to HK and what i saw most people work all day and spent rest in tiny flats watching youtube, whats the big difference to them if China becomes a real government?

In Hong Kong you can watch what you like on Youtube !

[Morch]

14 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

The Chinese seem quite free to me. Chinese tourist are all over the place because so many of them have been lifted out of poverty and can now afford to travel overseas.

 

When I visited China a couple of years ago, I was very impressed with the good organization of the cities and the friendliness of the people in the places I visited, such as Shantou, Xian, Hangzhou, and the Yellow Mountains.

 

I didn't employ any guide and was able to travel around easily and economically on comfortable electric public buses which were more advanced than the buses I sometimes use in Australia.

 

The Yellow Mountains in Huangshan were a delight. The walking tracks through the forests and mountains were very well maintained with concrete steps along the steep parts, and people employed to clear up the litter from the rubbish bins along the tracks.

 

However, it's true that the people in China are not free to insult their President, a bit like people in Thailand are not free to insult the King.

 

Your tourist experience is largely irrelevant to the topic at hand. If you wish to make the claim that people in the PRC are "free", or that the curtailed freedom can be summed by "not free to insult their President", guess you're either just doing it wrong too.

[Morch]

13 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

I've already done so. When I was in Hangzhou a couple of years ago I paid for a day's tour in a local tourist bus, to visit the surrounding temples. There were extra charges that applied when visiting certain areas or certain parts of the temple complexes.

 

Towards the end of the trip, during a conversation with a Chinese tourist, while walking around a temple complex, I found out that I had been charged for a visit to a location I had never made.

 

At the end of the journey, at the bus station, I protested to the manager that I had been overcharged by the female guide on the bus. No problem. The money was refunded with great apologies. ????

 

More nonsense. Your unverifiable tourist anecdotes are irrelevant. And obviously, there's a wee difference between personally protesting about overcharging, and mass protests about political issues. Try harder.