Getting visas directly from IO

[Matt199]

Hi guys,

 

What are the possible consequences of getting a visa, in particular Non-O Volunteer and Non-B, not through a regular process but under a table?

 

Thanks,

Matt

[tonray]

How low is the table ?

[UncleMhee]

5 minutes ago, Matt199 said:

What are the possible consequences of getting a visa, in particular Non-O Volunteer and Non-B, not through a regular process but under a table?

Versus what......the possible consequences of not having any sort of visa at all?

 

[Pottinger]

They are illegal of course, and therefore not valid, so you run the risk of prosecution, fine, detention and/or deportation. That said, people have used the services of the Pattaya visa agents for many years without issues. At your own risk.

[ezzra]

No consequences really, for those who are unsure, in a hurry or just don't want the hassle paying an agent is the way to go, as opposed to trying to get it the usual hard way...

[UncleMhee]

OP your choice of topic concerns me......if you want it directly from an IO best let them broach the subject. 

As mentioned already...."Agents" are the usual go to and liaison with the IO not yourself personally!!

[Matt199]

Good question. There is no alternative it seems.

 

The risks I was thinking is that my name and passport number will be on some dirty farang list. The next time I might not be able to process visa through regular process, or the IO will ask multiple of what it costed before because they know I paid. Or maybe they will reach out with some blackmail. That's the risks I thought of but could be more.

[Matt199]

Just now, UncleMhee said:

OP your choice of topic concerns me......if you want it directly from an IO best let them broach the subject. 

As mentioned already...."Agents" are the usual go to and liaison with the IO not yourself personally!!

It's through a 3rd party, not directly with IO.

[YorkshireTyke]

33 minutes ago, Pottinger said:

They are illegal of course, and therefore not valid, so you run the risk of prosecution, fine, detention and/or deportation. That said, people have used the services of the Pattaya visa agents for many years without issues. At your own risk.

That was my thoughts until recently when someone published info from Immigration which say something like the head of immigration can issue a visa without the relevant documentation at his own discretion. So they are not illegal.

[ratcatcher]

39 minutes ago, Pottinger said:

They are illegal of course, and therefore not valid, so you run the risk of prosecution, fine, detention and/or deportation. That said, people have used the services of the Pattaya visa agents for many years without issues. At your own risk.

I thought Pattaya agents assisted people with extensions of already existing legitimate visas. I thought the OP was asking about getting a Non-O volunteer or a Non."B". Aren't visas usually issued by consulates outside of the Kingdom? 

[YorkshireTyke]

2 minutes ago, ratcatcher said:

I thought Pattaya agents assisted people with extensions of already existing legitimate visas. I thought the OP was asking about getting a Non-O volunteer or a Non."B". Aren't visas usually issued by consulates outside of the Kingdom? 

I have a 79 year old friend who paid an agent late last year for a 'visa'. Then the Govt announced certain visa needed health insurance so I asked him which visa he had to make sure he was covered. He brought me his passport and you don't get a visa, you get the permission to stay stamp only. Ratcatcher is correct, Immigration do not issue any visas. This method also guarantees the customer has to go back to the agent next year, he cannot renew his 'visa' 'legitimately' as he doesn't have one.

[jackdd]

6 minutes ago, YorkshireTyke said:

He brought me his passport and you don't get a visa, you get the permission to stay stamp only. Ratcatcher is correct, Immigration do not issue any visas. This method also guarantees the customer has to go back to the agent next year, he cannot renew his 'visa' 'legitimately' as he doesn't have one.

That's not correct. A non-immigrant visa issued at an immigration office in Thailand looks like this:

(random picture found on Google)

[Matt199]

Actually, it's a good question guys. I already have a 1 year Non-B issued from abroad that expired a week ago or so. I'm not sure if I will be getting a new visa or an extension. 

[YorkshireTyke]

10 minutes ago, jackdd said:

That's not correct. A non-immigrant visa issued at an immigration office in Thailand looks like this:

(random picture found on Google)

That's an Education visa, not a non imm O or A. I was only thinking about O or OA visas like the OP asked about.

[darrendsd]

1 hour ago, Pottinger said:

They are illegal of course, and therefore not valid, so you run the risk of prosecution, fine, detention and/or deportation. That said, people have used the services of the Pattaya visa agents for many years without issues. At your own risk.

They are not illegal - if they were they were not be issued

 

If they were not valid numerous people would be getting arrested everytime they left Thailand

 

I/Os have many powers to overlook certain things for example the money in the bank for 3 months rule - I/Os have the power to overlook that it has not been in for 3 months - it is not illegal for them to do this - it is a power they have

 

To the OP you will have no issues but make sure you deal with a reputable visa agent

[dsf9]

Everyone walks a shade of grey, even those cynics of the forum that believe in black and white, that are in continous chant of "get the right visa", "go home", and so on.. will have something off if you look hard enough (non-accurate description in work permit, did not wear a seatbelt one time, halo misaligned etc.. ). That said I would be a little cautious of a volunteer visa today, given the popularity of them recently, at some point it might get too much attention and whatever is left of the 40k you paid that went under the table is no longer worth the non-hassle renewal for those involved.. I've meet a few people barstoolers over the years that are on them though and didn't have any complaints (presume they all use the same popular agent)..  If you can't get them in-country without leaving (can you?) you might as well wait a few months until commit? 

 

 

 

 

[Peter Denis]

41 minutes ago, YorkshireTyke said:

...

@ratcatcher is correct, Immigration do not issue any visas. This method also guarantees the customer has to go back to the agent next year, he cannot renew his 'visa' 'legitimately' as he doesn't have one.

It's a little bit more nuanced than that.

Indeed, Visa are issued by thai Embassies/Consulates abroad (which fall under the thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs).

When entering (or re-entering) Thailand you will then be stamped in for the 'permission to stay' that Visa entitles you to, which can be 30 days, 60 days, 90 days, 1 year or 5 years.

When that permission to stay is due to expire you can then apply at your local IO for an 'extension of stay', which - depending on the original Visa from which you got the permission to stay - can be for 30 days (for VisaExempt or Tourist Visa entries) or 1 year (for Non Imm O or O-A Visa). 

The 60 days extension of stay for reason of visiting your wife/dependant child is a special case as you can ALWAYS apply for such extension - no matter on which original Visa you entered Thailand - but only once for each entry you made on that original Visa.

Besides those 'extensions of stay' which can only be applied for at in-country Immigration offices, you can also apply for a Change of Visa.

When you entered (or re-entered) Thailand on a VisaExempt or TouristVisa, you can apply once per entry for a 30-day extension of stay.  But you can also apply for a Non Imm O Visa (for reason of retirement, marriage or other reason) at your local IO.  This has to be done 15 days (some IOs require 23 days) before your permission to stay expires.  That permission to stay can be either from your original entry or from the extension of stay you applied for. 

Note: You cannot apply for such Non Imm O Visa once you are on overstay.

 

[hotandsticky]

45 minutes ago, YorkshireTyke said:

I have a 79 year old friend who paid an agent late last year for a 'visa'. Then the Govt announced certain visa needed health insurance so I asked him which visa he had to make sure he was covered. He brought me his passport and you don't get a visa, you get the permission to stay stamp only. Ratcatcher is correct, Immigration do not issue any visas. This method also guarantees the customer has to go back to the agent next year, he cannot renew his 'visa' 'legitimately' as he doesn't have one.

 

 

I don't think that is quite right.

 

I understand that if you are going from, say a visa exempt entry, the agent first arranges a Non-Imm 'O' visa and then the retirement extension.... that is why it costs more than an extension arranged off a Non-Imm 'O' already obtained outside the country.

 

Also, I had previously believed that you could ONLY get a visa outside of Thailand  -  Thai Visa threads have taught me oterwise.

[hotandsticky]

1 hour ago, Pottinger said:

They are illegal of course, and therefore not valid, so you run the risk of prosecution, fine, detention and/or deportation. That said, people have used the services of the Pattaya visa agents for many years without issues. At your own risk.

 

 

Hogwash !

 

 

The stamp attached by the IO for an 'agent arranged' extension is as valid as one obtained by standard personal application.

 

 

Number one rule in Thailand - the IO has the discretion to do W - T - F he wants.

[Peter Denis]

8 minutes ago, hotandsticky said:

Hogwash !

The stamp attached by the IO for an 'agent arranged' extension is as valid as one obtained by standard personal application.

Number one rule in Thailand - the IO has the discretion to do W - T - F he wants.

Sorry, but that is not correct.

An Immigration Officer handling your application can provide leniency for minor deviations from the regulations (e.g. applying 1 day late, no 12-month bank statement but your bank-book confirms that you met the seasoning requirements, etc).  

But when he deliberately turns a blind eye to a major deviation from the regulations (e.g. no funds on your personal thai bank-account when applying for the 90-day Non Imm O Visa or subsequent extension), the 'stamp' he provides is not legitimate and therefore also your permission to stay is not legitimate.

Everybody knows that when you need a Fixer Agent to circumvent the requirements that you cannot meet, that this is not kosher.  The fact that this corruption (because that's what it is - let's call a spade a spade) is almost openly practiced, doesn't make it legitimate.

And some long-stay retirees that made use of a Fixer Agent did regret it dearly, when an internal audit revealed that the permission to stay they received was 'bought' by a Fixer Agent, resulting in the Immigration officers on the take being fired and the retirees being summoned to leave Thailand with a re-entry ban and a hefty overstay-fee.  Agreed, such cases are very rare and most often the result of some internal strife within Immigration. 

But people need to be aware of the risk (however small) of engaging a Fixer Agent.  And saying that it is legitimate and totally risk-free is simply not true.   

 

[ubonjoe]

1 hour ago, YorkshireTyke said:

That's an Education visa, not a non imm O or A. I was only thinking about O or OA visas like the OP asked about.

The same stamp is used for all non immigrant categories they issue. The just write in the category. It can be a O, B, ED or R.

OA visas are not issued by immigration.

[ubonjoe]

1 hour ago, darrendsd said:

I/Os have many powers to overlook certain things for example the money in the bank for 3 months rule - I/Os have the power to overlook that it has not been in for 3 months - it is not illegal for them to do this - it is a power they have

Not all of them have that power. That is a common excuses used by people that try to justify them. It is mostly an officer not verifying that  the documents attached to an application are real, true and correct.

This is what the immigration order for extensions of stay states.

"5. In the case where an alien applicant does not meet the full qualifications stipulated by the criteria herein or in other cases not specified in this Order but a competent officer equivalent to or higher than inspector is of the opinion that the alien has legitimate reason for staying in the Kingdom of Thailand, the application shall be forwarded to the Commander of the Royal Thai Police or an authorized competent officer for further consideration of the alien's application."

[Olmate]

9 minutes ago, Peter Denis said:

Sorry, but that is not correct.

An Immigration Officer handling your application can provide leniency for minor deviations from the regulations (e.g. applying 1 day late, no 12-month bank statement but your bank-book confirms that you met the seasoning requirements, etc).  

But when he deliberately turns a blind eye to a major deviation from the regulations (e.g. no funds on your personal thai bank-account when applying for the 90-day Non Imm O Visa or subsequent extension), the 'stamp' he provides is not legitimate and therefore also your permission to stay is not legitimate.

Everybody knows that when you need a Fixer Agent to circumvent the requirements that you cannot meet, that this is not kosher.  The fact that this corruption (because that's what it is - let's call a spade a spade) is almost openly practiced, doesn't make it legitimate.

And some long-stay retirees that made use of a Fixer Agent did regret it dearly, when an internal audit revealed that the permission to stay they received was 'bought' by a Fixer Agent, resulting in the Immigration officers on the take being fired and the retirees being summoned to leave Thailand with a re-entry ban and a hefty overstay-fee.  Agreed, such cases are very rare and most often the result of some internal strife within Immigration. 

But people need to be aware of the risk (however small) of engaging a Fixer Agent.  And saying that it is legitimate and totally risk-free is simply not true.   

 

Same story, yes or no,but all agent applications I know of have always shown bank balances,it’s the seasoning that’s waived ,which is within the scope for Senior IO,s. And as for prosecutions never seen any evidence at all ,with respect!

[Peter Denis]

31 minutes ago, Olmate said:

1 - Same story, yes or no,but all agent applications I know of have always shown bank balances,it’s the seasoning that’s waived ,which is within the scope for Senior IO,s.

2 - And as for prosecutions never seen any evidence at all ,with respect!

1 - See UJ's response in post #22.

2 - At Roi Et IO, already quite some time ago.

Six immigration officers on the take fired with no appeal, as well as six foreigners having made use of those officers' services via their Fixer Agent being deported with a re-entry ban.

 

Note: If you really cannot meet the requirements for your application (for whatever reason) and the consequences of not being able to meet them would be devastating, then a Fixer Agent is indeed an option to consider.  I am not a moral 'prinzipien-reiter' and I have already suggested the Fixer Agent option for people that were with their backs against the wall and had no other choice.

But stating that this is legitimate and 100% risk-free for you as applicant, is simply not true.

[clorox]

Agent are 100% legal in thailand they are your representative, what they can do to help you is their problem, unless they stamp it themself that is illegal, if immigration approved, doesn't matter how they do it its 100% legal, who are we to say what they can or cannot do.

 

the problem is people does not want to pay the hefty fee, if you don't want to pay, you are on your own, thailand elites cards is an agent working with immigration with more power and higher cost

[anchadian]

8 minutes ago, clorox said:

Agent are 100% legal in thailand they are your representative, what they can do to help you is their problem, unless they stamp it themself that is illegal, if immigration approved, doesn't matter how they do it its 100% legal, who are we to say what they can or cannot do.

 

the problem is people does not want to pay the hefty fee, if you don't want to pay, you are on your own, thailand elites cards is an agent working with immigration with more power and higher cost

The applicant is well aware of what the agent can do in securing, let's say a retirement extension.

 

Therefore the applicant is just as guilty as the visa agent and the IO.  No ifs or buts.

[clorox]

7 minutes ago, anchadian said:

The applicant is well aware of what the agent can do in securing, let's say a retirement extension.

 

Therefore the applicant is just as guilty as the visa agent and the IO.  No ifs or buts.

i understand, but once it is stamp on your passport by an IO officer, it is legal 100%, who are we to say what IO must do, they have the power to approve what ever they want, doesn't matter if or not

[JackThompson]

49 minutes ago, Peter Denis said:

2 - At Roi Et IO, already quite some time ago.

Six immigration officers on the take fired with no appeal, as well as six foreigners having made use of those officers' services via their Fixer Agent being deported with a re-entry ban.

While that case is interesting, I would need more info.  What types of extensions did the six foreigners have?  Did their applications have the bank-letters created with "agent flash-cash," and only the seasoning was "overlooked"?  Or did the agent/IO get lazy and skip the bank letter?  Or were these like the "fake work visa" cases, with faked tax-payment docs?

If they busted eveyone who used "flash cash" agent-money for the bank-letter, I think there would have been many more "irregular" extensions found.

[JackThompson]

2 hours ago, Matt199 said:

Actually, it's a good question guys. I already have a 1 year Non-B issued from abroad that expired a week ago or so. I'm not sure if I will be getting a new visa or an extension. 

The "enter before" date of the visa is irrelevant.  You could have applied for a 1-year extension before the permitted-stay from your last entry expired, if you can jump through their hoops. 

 

Some offices might still allow this while you are on the "covid-extension" - but might involve paying them off through an agent to coax them into providing this legit-service.

[Peter Denis]

1 hour ago, JackThompson said:

While that case is interesting, I would need more info.  What types of extensions did the six foreigners have?  Did their applications have the bank-letters created with "agent flash-cash," and only the seasoning was "overlooked"?  Or did the agent/IO get lazy and skip the bank letter?  Or were these like the "fake work visa" cases, with faked tax-payment docs?

If they busted eveyone who used "flash cash" agent-money for the bank-letter, I think there would have been many more "irregular" extensions found.

Does it matter?

These retirees were screwed, because their application prepared by their Fixer Agent was not compliant (and that being the reason for them engaging mr FixIt).  But the ball started rolling when the immigration officer that handled it and provided the approval stamp was found out to be turning a blind eye, helped by a 'brown envelope'.

This is not a moral issue, but a matter that TVF members should be well aware that using a Fixer Agent to circumvent the regulations is NOT legitimate (even if it is done blatantly in the open) and that - despite the excuses and 'laughing face' icons - it is NOT 100% risk-free for you as applicant.