Muscle loss now - post stroke 4 years ago - why ?

[BritManToo]

16 minutes ago, Autonuaq said:

When look up you will see that around age 50 muscle will change and lose power, strength.

Have a look at your skin and hair.

I'm calling BS on this one.

At 58-60 I was at my absolute cycling and trail running strongest.

It's only since I hit 62 that I've started to go downhill.

 

How do you explain the little wizened elderly toothless hill tribe ladies that go racing past you on mountain tracks with mammoth packs on their backs?

Edited July 24, 2020 by BritManToo

[Speedo1968]

2 hours ago, BritManToo said:

Disagree,

Muscles (heart) aren't damaged by exercise, joints are though.

64 now, as I've got older my hiking in the mountains has reduced (10Km max), and my cycling has increased (20Km/day).

 

I've never found walking on level ground to be that beneficial for weight control.

The heart, and lungs tend to become enlarged with exercise such as competition swimming and training.    It seems when you stop you both organs kind of collapse and can make one tired.

[Speedo1968]

2 hours ago, RichCor said:

Do you have an inability to 'lock' your knees (for standing in an upright position for long periods without effort)? Is this a side-effect of the previous stroke, or of the mentioned knee issue? 

Yes, not able to hold my knees in a standing position, they sag.   Side effect of stroke that has only occurred in the last few months.     I thought it was from over exercise.

 

After the stroke it took 3 months before I could stand and take a few steps.  Once I could the determination to get out and about was very strong and within a month I was walking without holding on to a wheelchair.   A month later I was road walking.    Perhaps this was too early following the stroke for my muscles as I had lost virtually all body muscle being on the floor for over 2 days.

A couple of months later I was play scratched on the leg by a young dog, no visible skin damage but within 24 hours I had acute bacterial infection of the foot and lower leg and could not stand, so back to the wheelchair as my Achilles heel was damaged by the infection.    I am allergic to antibiotics.

[Speedo1968]

3 hours ago, robertson468 said:

I think you need to look at your exercise regime.  I am 75 years young and exercise for about 1 hour and 10 minutes 6 days a week.  I do anorobic exercises for about 50 minutes, which includes reps, but not particularly heavy weights, then run on my running machine for about 15 minutes.  I am about the same weight as you and feel great.  Sorry to hear about the stroke and hope you will manage to live a long and happy life.

Thanks for your advice.
Unfortunately i dont think my left knee would hold out for running and it is getting to the stage where I try not to bend it during floor exercises, the one hour plus walk with the dogs in the evening is enough.
I used to walk to town and back for the market but now I need a lift to town, then I walk around the wet markets with my backpack shopping, however I cannot walk back anymore so get samloor.
I'd love to go swimming but the nearest decent pool is Korat 3 hours away; my local one is too busy, when its open of course.

[Speedo1968]

3 hours ago, Sheryl said:

Unhelpful flaming/baiting posts and replies to same have been removed.

 

It is highly unlikely the OP's diet is to blame and this thread is NOT a place to debate vegan diets.

 

It is quite possible to get adequate complete protein on a vegan diet if proper care is taken.

Thank you Sheryl from OP

[Sheryl]

14 minutes ago, Speedo1968 said:

Yes, not able to hold my knees in a standing position, they sag.   Side effect of stroke that has only occurred in the last few months.     I thought it was from over exercise.

 

After the stroke it took 3 months before I could stand and take a few steps.  Once I could the determination to get out and about was very strong and within a month I was walking without holding on to a wheelchair.   A month later I was road walking.    Perhaps this was too early following the stroke for my muscles as I had lost virtually all body muscle being on the floor for over 2 days.

A couple of months later I was play scratched on the leg by a young dog, no visible skin damage but within 24 hours I had acute bacterial infection of the foot and lower leg and could not stand, so back to the wheelchair as my Achilles heel was damaged by the infection.    I am allergic to antibiotics.

Do check your B12 levels as if that is a factor, easily treated

 

B12 deficiency is common in vegans and older peopel in geneeral

[Speedo1968]

2 hours ago, Sheryl said:

 

This is a good point, actually - OP you should get your cobalamin levels checked along with your testosterone as you might be B12 deficient.

 

That would not cause visible loss of muscle mass but could explain the reduced strength in your legs

 

If you do nto already do so, sublingual B12 supplement may be wise

 

 

When I first became vegan 45 years ago after having been vegetarian for about 5 years B12 was the most talked about thing.    Diet changes were all the rage following on from the hippie revolution in the 60's.
Never heard much about it since.
I agree it is vitally important and perhaps I have overlooked that too.   Thanks so much.

[xtrnuno41]

As people said, testosterone could be a problem, so called andro pause, same as for women meno pause.

 

About vegan, everyone should know for them selves, but not long ago there was on TV a documentary about that.

Saying only eating vegan was not good for humans. You probably can do long time, but there is a point of your body acting. 

In that program was even a woman living ONLY on eating chips from the bags, she only eat that, nothing else.

Breakfast, lunch and dinner. Even took her bags with her when going on holiday, ok.

She lives and said she feels good with that "diet". Amazing, however in the long run she could have problems, they said.

Same as eating vegan. 

But there are many things which can affect your body and health. It looks like you did/do lots of things to stay healthy, but never the less

there are problems. Maybe just plain chemistry in your body shifts. Maybe some medicine changed it? All is possible.

 

They give you nowadays very easy statines against high cholesterol. OK they control it, but at the same time they affect your body

in a big negative way. All kinds of weird symptoms in your body, breaking down body. Muscle mass loss was one of the symptoms, 

others like breaking down Q10 enzym in your body. It could lead up to not even be able to walk anymore.

You have to choose, higher cholesterol or body breakdown. As i developed troubles , i stopped.

I use curcuma now, though my specialist said it wouldnt help. However on 2 occasions my cholesterol was lower!?

 

I think for me changed a lot, as i developed apneu and that took probably long time to finally have troubles, but in mean time shifts your 

processes in your body. Now long time sleeping with machine, but processes shifting back? Partially i guess. 

You know you are getting older and some day you will die, no matter what. 

About the apes, its proven they also eat meat. Last time saw docu, even a rhino-bird, normally lives on fruit, eats meat.

It catches bats to eat!  

[BigStar]

On 7/23/2020 at 11:51 AM, Speedo1968 said:

Why could it be that I am now loosing muscle in arms / legs and perhaps internally too ???    I have no other symptoms.

Sarcopenia, as Sheryl said. There's no escape, but you can do this:

 

https://www.marksdailyapple.com/sarcopenia-age-related-muscle-loss/

 

On 7/23/2020 at 11:51 AM, Speedo1968 said:

My body weight is between 58 - 60kgs for years, my diet ( vegan ) is as it has been for 45+ years, I try to do simple yoga floor exercises for 30 - 60 mins per day and, am trying to strengthen my upper body too.   

Body weight can remain the same because fat replaces the muscle. That yoga isn't helpful for the problem that concerns you. You can at least up that game, however, by adding resistance bands.

 

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=yoga+with+bands

 

[Tony125]

59 minutes ago, Speedo1968 said:

Yes, not able to hold my knees in a standing position, they sag.   Side effect of stroke that has only occurred in the last few months.     I thought it was from over exercise.

 

After the stroke it took 3 months before I could stand and take a few steps.  Once I could the determination to get out and about was very strong and within a month I was walking without holding on to a wheelchair.   A month later I was road walking.    Perhaps this was too early following the stroke for my muscles as I had lost virtually all body muscle being on the floor for over 2 days.

A couple of months later I was play scratched on the leg by a young dog, no visible skin damage but within 24 hours I had acute bacterial infection of the foot and lower leg and could not stand, so back to the wheelchair as my Achilles heel was damaged by the infection.    I am allergic to antibiotics.

I doubt you are allergic to all antibiotics. I am alergic to antibiotics containing sulfur but so far  other antibiotics trigger no adverse affects. Sulphur drugs have caused me to go into anaphylactic shock . Same occurs if I eat lobster but shrimp, scollops, squid,  clams, oysters, fish have no affect. Should find out what antibiotics you can tolerate. I also agree with Sheryl you need to take a good Vit B complex and probably Vit B12 for energy.

[Tongjaw]

3 hours ago, Speedo1968 said:

Thanks for your advice.
Unfortunately i dont think my left knee would hold out for running and it is getting to the stage where I try not to bend it during floor exercises, the one hour plus walk with the dogs in the evening is enough.
I used to walk to town and back for the market but now I need a lift to town, then I walk around the wet markets with my backpack shopping, however I cannot walk back anymore so get samloor.
I'd love to go swimming but the nearest decent pool is Korat 3 hours away; my local one is too busy, when its open of course.

OP, not sure where you live but you mentioned you where in hospital in Khon Kaen. If you live in or around Khon Kaen then there are a few swimming pools. Some are part of gyms and others are in hotels. However you can pay daily to use them. There’s also a large outdoor pool at the sports stadium in KK Uni where you can do laps if you wanted. 
Hopefully you get stronger and back to walking distances again soon,. 

[Speedo1968]

15 hours ago, Tony125 said:

I doubt you are allergic to all antibiotics. I am alergic to antibiotics containing sulfur but so far  other antibiotics trigger no adverse affects. Sulphur drugs have caused me to go into anaphylactic shock . Same occurs if I eat lobster but shrimp, scollops, squid,  clams, oysters, fish have no affect. Should find out what antibiotics you can tolerate. I also agree with Sheryl you need to take a good Vit B complex and probably Vit B12 for energy.

Any and all medications that I have been given over the years are recorded including allergic responses, I carry this list with me whenever I go out, there is a copy posted in my house and copies are on my hospital files.     The list includes brands of the same medicine that I can or cannot tolerate, simple things like Aspirin.   The most recent antibiotics were from those used following cataract surgery 3 months ago.
Like you I have had life threatening responses some of which are instant others that happen some hours after taking the medication.      Hopefully you have listed specific issues with medications in the event that you are unable to advise the doctor at the time it is prescribed.

[Speedo1968]

16 hours ago, BigStar said:

Sarcopenia, as Sheryl said. There's no escape, but you can do this:

 

https://www.marksdailyapple.com/sarcopenia-age-related-muscle-loss/

 

Body weight can remain the same because fat replaces the muscle. That yoga isn't helpful for the problem that concerns you. You can at least up that game, however, by adding resistance bands.

 

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=yoga+with+bands

 

Thanks for your response and the links.    Interesting reading.   Will see what my blood / urine tests come up with and then look at the options.

[Speedo1968]

13 hours ago, Tongjaw said:

OP, not sure where you live but you mentioned you where in hospital in Khon Kaen. If you live in or around Khon Kaen then there are a few swimming pools. Some are part of gyms and others are in hotels. However you can pay daily to use them. There’s also a large outdoor pool at the sports stadium in KK Uni where you can do laps if you wanted. 
Hopefully you get stronger and back to walking distances again soon,. 

I have no transport of my own and live 50km away from KK; use train to get to KK and back, but it's not a real issue, a pleasant ride and only 8 baht !
I thought that swimming pools were closed.   Will look online and try to find out the situation.
Have been to the roof top pool at one of the malls in Korat, has 50 metre training pool.

[BigStar]

2 hours ago, Speedo1968 said:

Thanks for your response and the links.    Interesting reading.   Will see what my blood / urine tests come up with and then look at the options.

Also consider isometric exercises:

 

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=isometrics+for+seniors

 

These can be used variously in conjunction with weights and resistance bands, holding at points of least, medium, and max extension. Much easier on joints. 

[RichCor]

22 hours ago, Speedo1968 said:

Perhaps this was too early following the stroke for my muscles as I had lost virtually all body muscle being on the floor for over 2 days.

A couple of months later [...] I had acute bacterial infection of the foot and lower leg and could not stand, so back to the wheelchair as my Achilles heel was damaged by the infection.   

I am allergic to antibiotics.

While it's fine to ask questions here to get ideas, remember that most of us responding are not specialists and will have no idea if our suggestions for you are counter-indicated given your medical history and current condition.

 

Given the information you've provided so far I'd highly recommend you find a physical therapist you trust and can work with to evaluate your present condition, give realistic goals, set a treatment plan and exercise regiment while monitoring your progress. You're a specialized case and you need to seek out people who understand an have expertise in helping you achieve your health objectives.

[alfalfa19]

On 7/23/2020 at 5:52 PM, scubascuba3 said:

if you eat more it just goes on as fat? or can't put weight on?

yes, i can gain weight no problem,  but it's not the kind of weight i want.   another part of the problem is that i can't lift the heavy weights that i used to,  due to joint deterioration in shoulders and elbows (rotator cuffs , etc.  )     this makes it harder to build muscle mass.  

[alfalfa19]

On 7/23/2020 at 7:07 PM, Speedo1968 said:

I am shorter now as It is difficult to straighten my legs and when standing, for example preparing food my legs bend at the knees and causes me to lean forwards.    I have to concentrate hard on keeping my legs straight, doesn't hurt but its, shall we say inconvenient.

I eat little in the way of fat as I am on a vegan diet, I do use olive oil for cooking, no added sugar and prefer to eat low sugar fruits.

i'm no nutritionist,  but i just notice that you are vegan.   how do you meet your protein requirements?

[Speedo1968]

7 hours ago, alfalfa19 said:

i'm no nutritionist,  but i just notice that you are vegan.   how do you meet your protein requirements?

Thank you for your question.

 

Yes sufficient protein intake has always been difficult which ever country I lived / worked in since the 1970's.
Even when it was the "in thing" to do with people having experienced the "Hippie trail" to India places to buy the extra types of foodstuffs on return to their home country were limited.
Like most people who were trying to become vegetarian / vegan first things to go were red meat, then fish, finally eggs then milk products etc.
Today things such as bread can contain milk, why I am not sure but I remember that in junior school in the 50's milk was provided free as well as fish oil capsules.     Here now in Thailand free milk is given to schools, not sure if this is out of kindness by the govt or manufacture or a commercial "carrot" for other milk products.

 

I eat only twice a day, a small breakfast around 6-7am and a main meal around 12.30 - 1pm.   I drink plain water around 3 litre per day plus homemade chlorophyll drinks when needed.

 

Alternative protein sources such as nuts are often difficult to digest as one gets older.    I use chickpea powder in different ways, e.g as a thickener in curries or Chinese style hotpot dishes.     Can be used without cooking but can cause gas.

 

I have tried making tahini and hummus but its quite laborious especially if one doesn't have a food mixer.   Now I buy tahini online as I can use it for breakfast along with fruit, a good bread and cocoa powder and a teaspoon of brown sugar ( the only added sugar in my diet ).
As an alternative to cows milk I use soy, although I found that it can cause problems with the finger joints if I consume more than one pack per day.
Then there is soy protein, TVP, an alternative to use as a meat texture in meals.

 

I try to select seasonal fruits with high protein, my favourite is durian of course.    Raisins are a good dried fruit.    Unfortunately many can be high in sugar.   Then there are bean sprouts, sunflower, mung bean etc.
Vegetables again I try to eat those that taste good and have a high protein level.
Unfortunately many of these in my local fresh market are ex China and not organic and not chemical free, I go to people I know who have a good product.
Further, I make my own chlorophyll drinks using local plants or vegetables, good for many things.

Fortunately there is an excellent vegan supermarket / restaurant in Khon Kaen, so I can by some things there.    The prices are low.

 

Can I meet my protein requirements, yes it needs more thought about what I eat but, it also makes one conscious of all the added '<deleted>' that is in processed foods today especially sugar, flavourings etc.


 

[Tounge Thaied]

mechanisms for stroke related muscle wasting have been reported to be inactivity, denervation, malnutrition, inflammation, and metabolic imbalance

[Sheryl]

7 hours ago, Tounge Thaied said:

mechanisms for stroke related muscle wasting have been reported to be inactivity, denervation, malnutrition, inflammation, and metabolic imbalance

It is 4 years since his stroke and sounds like the wasting is fairly recent. More likely age related and possibly B12 deficiency is my guess. He mentions lack of strength in the legs, which could be B12 deficiency andf with less strength, less able to work the muscles.

 

OP - I don't know your reason for not consuming milk products but if you would consider adding yogurt to your diet, it would give you a good source of both complete protein and B12. there are some good, unsweetened yogurt products on the market these days in Thailand e.g. Yolida brand. Can also easily make your own.

 

But even with that, get your levels checked, may need to take sublingual supplement at least for a while.

 

 

[Speedo1968]

12 hours ago, Sheryl said:

It is 4 years since his stroke and sounds like the wasting is fairly recent. More likely age related and possibly B12 deficiency is my guess. He mentions lack of strength in the legs, which could be B12 deficiency andf with less strength, less able to work the muscles.

 

OP - I don't know your reason for not consuming milk products but if you would consider adding yogurt to your diet, it would give you a good source of both complete protein and B12. there are some good, unsweetened yogurt products on the market these days in Thailand e.g. Yolida brand. Can also easily make your own.

 

But even with that, get your levels checked, may need to take sublingual supplement at least for a while.

 

 

Thanks Sheryl for your good advice as always.

When I first started on the vegetarian track in the 70's I did use B12 supplements, not sure if it helped but as you say now that I am older perhaps it is time to start using B12 again.

As a practicing vegan for many years I try to be as careful as possible if eating out not to eat animal products of any kind.     In years gone by my body would automatically respond ( sick ) to animal products in something I ate even if I couldn't see or taste them - rather like lactose intolerance.    It still happens here in Thailand, hence my preference to eat my own food or that of others who are confirmed vegetarians / vegans.

I understand that whey powder is all the rage and yes it has a big range of amino acids and is high in protein, however, the jury still seems to be out as to just how beneficial it is over other milk related products.

 

I have no known allergies to milk but one of my daughters has since birth as does one of her twins ( the boy ).

 

Funnily enough whey protein was seen as a fairly unuseful product back in the early 60's and was almost given away free to pig farmers ( in UK ).    It came in very very large wooden containers and was mixed with water and fed to commercial pigs once per day, they loved it even to the extent of sitting in the feeding trough.

I have managed, sometimes, to make a reasonable plain soy yogurt here just using jars and putting outside during the day ( not in stormy weather though ).

Due to the surprising and very interesting responses to my original post I now have a long list of blood / urine tests for my next hospital visit.    Thank you to all.

[Speedo1968]

On 7/23/2020 at 1:33 PM, Bender Rodriguez said:

age ?  52 ? your name is 1968...

 

do you know what medicines you got in the hospital ?

 

if it included fluoroquinolones 

 

it might cause damage even years after you took it

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=fluoroquinolones+side+effects

 

The serious side effects include tendonitis, tendon rupture, arthralgia, pain in extremities, gait disturbance, neuropathies associated with paraesthesia, depression, fatigue, memory impairment, sleep disorders, and impaired hearing, vision, taste and smell.

 

Sorry for late response.   The number part of my online name is not by DOB, I was born in 1946.

[Speedo1968]

OP - please excuse my not knowing but if I am to have tests for B12 level and testosterone can I eat my breakfast as usual ?      
I will be checking creatinine and BUN as it was last done a year ago.
Also a year ago I had a AGAP test which showed low 7.7 by some standards but mid range by others, is it worth doing again ?

[Sheryl]

3 hours ago, Speedo1968 said:

OP - please excuse my not knowing but if I am to have tests for B12 level and testosterone can I eat my breakfast as usual ?      
I will be checking creatinine and BUN as it was last done a year ago.
Also a year ago I had a AGAP test which showed low 7.7 by some standards but mid range by others, is it worth doing again ?

Yes, can eat - no need to fast for those tests

 

I see no indication for an AGAP test per se but it  is derived from the results of an electrolyte panel and that might not be a bad idea, especially if you are sweating a lot. No need to fast for that either.

[Speedo1968]

17 hours ago, Sheryl said:

Yes, can eat - no need to fast for those tests

 

I see no indication for an AGAP test per se but it  is derived from the results of an electrolyte panel and that might not be a bad idea, especially if you are sweating a lot. No need to fast for that either.

Many thanks Sheryl for the clarity of your reply.