German court convicts 93-year old man for Nazi crimes

[Logosone]

9 hours ago, Morch said:

 

It wasn't claimed that all Germans knew.

That's exactly what people claimed above, read the thread. Indeed it's what many historians claim. 

 

Like the hapless Daniel Goldhagen. Until Norman Finkelstein completely demolished Goldhagen's book line by line.

 

Fact is a very small percentage of Germans knew about the holocaust. O.11% of the Wehrmacht were convicted of war crimes, 20,0000 Germans out of a total of 80 million. The very very vast majority did not know. 

 

Even Bruno Dey did not know the full extent of what went on at the camp.

[Morch]

15 minutes ago, Logosone said:

That's exactly what people claimed above, read the thread. Indeed it's what many historians claim. 

 

Like the hapless Daniel Goldhagen. Until Norman Finkelstein completely demolished Goldhagen's book line by line.

 

Fact is a very small percentage of Germans knew about the holocaust. O.11% of the Wehrmacht were convicted of war crimes, 20,0000 Germans out of a total of 80 million. The very very vast majority did not know. 

 

Even Bruno Dey did not know the full extent of what went on at the camp.

 

No, it wasn't claimed that all Germans knew. Just that many, or more than the handful you go on about, did. That you claim something as "fact" doesn't make it so - both with regard to your first line and the nonsense figures tossed about.

 

It was not claimed that Dey knew the full extent of what went on at the camp. And anyway, the court did not accept his version.

[Logosone]

10 minutes ago, herfiehandbag said:

He quotes Richard Evans to support his claims that the Holocaust was not known about by the German People.

 

When David Irving advanced similar claims ( to those of Logosone) he was the subject of a hostile review by a book reviewer - American academic Deborah Lipstadt. Irving sued Lipstadt and her publishers Penguin Books for libel. Evans was a principal witness for the defence. Your post is actually an accurate summary of Evans's dismissal of Irvings claims ! 

 

Irving lost and had to pay costs.

It's bad enough that you try and portray the events at Celle as somehow indicating the barbarity of the people of Celle, who hosted you, when in fact it was the barbarity of the Allied bombing of civilians that led to over 2000 of the 4000 plus strong transport of prisoners to be killed by Allied bombs. Then you proceed to claim Germans who apprehended escaped inmates and killed 30 for looting were the real bad guys, ignoring that the Allied planes killed 2000 of those very same prisoners. It's pathetic.

 

Just like your attempt to equate David Irving's claims with mine, which are entirely different. However, talking about that trial, in it Evans makes clear that 

 

"the genocide was often described using euphemisms such as "special tasks" and "executive measures"; Einsatzgruppe victims were often described as having been shot while trying to escape"

 

Obviously because those responsible for the genocide knew it was against international law and attempted to keep it highly secret. Holocaust scholarship, even Evans, can't have it both ways, they can't claim on the one hand "Oh they took all these measures to keep it secret, used secret terminology "special treatment" meant killings, but on the other hand "Oh all Germans knew". It's a pathetic claim and obviously wrong.

[Morch]

8 minutes ago, Logosone said:

It's bad enough that you try and portray the events at Celle as somehow indicating the barbarity of the people of Celle, who hosted you, when in fact it was the barbarity of the Allied bombing of civilians that led to over 2000 of the 4000 plus strong transport of prisoners to be killed by Allied bombs. Then you proceed to claim Germans who apprehended escaped inmates and killed 30 for looting were the real bad guys, ignoring that the Allied planes killed 2000 of those very same prisoners. It's pathetic.

 

Just like your attempt to equate David Irving's claims with mine, which are entirely different. However, talking about that trial, in it Evans makes clear that 

 

"the genocide was often described using euphemisms such as "special tasks" and "executive measures"; Einsatzgruppe victims were often described as having been shot while trying to escape"

 

Obviously because those responsible for the genocide knew it was against international law and attempted to keep it highly secret. Holocaust scholarship, even Evans, can't have it both ways, they can't claim on the one hand "Oh they took all these measures to keep it secret, used secret terminology "special treatment" meant killings, but on the other hand "Oh all Germans knew". It's a pathetic claim and obviously wrong.

 

What is obvious is that you aim on this topic is to hammer in a revisionist agenda. Cherry-picking quotes, and attributing your own biased interpretations of them as definitive and factual is not going to change the fact scholars cited to not necessarily express exactly the same views as yours, or for that matter, that your own musings equate with referenced academic research. Also, there's that slight issue you're bent on ignoring - the court did not accept Dey's version.

 

I don't think it was claimed all Germans knew. More like you're using it as a straw man argument. 

 

 

[Mr Bean]

I wonder if he met Hitler, I would like to have a conversation with this guy I bet he has some insane stories.

Edited July 27, 2020 by Mr Bean

[Opl]

"Meet the Youngest Person Executed for Defying the Nazis. When Helmuth Hübener learned the truth about Nazi Germany, he spread the word—and paid the ultimate price.

https://www.history.com/news/meet-the-youngest-person-executed-for-defying-the-nazis

 

Edited July 27, 2020 by Opl

[SCOTT FITZGERSLD]

Germans...go figure...

[SCOTT FITZGERSLD]

On 7/24/2020 at 6:25 AM, JustAnotherHun said:

The majority may not have known exactly what was going on but no one could not have realized the sudden vanishing of his jewish neighbor. The jewish life in Germany was rich at that time. No city, no town without jewish communities.

The HC was a huge industrial complex with trains full of prisoners crossing the whole country and a complete infrastructure. There were also hundreds of thousands German troops in the east covering SS-units with "special orders". They saw what happened to the polish and russian jews.

Only who did not want to know did not know.

 

Sure, after the defeat, no one knew nothing about anything. It was much easier than to confess "yes, I knew about the crimes but i was not strong enough to stand up against it. I just tried to keep my own hands as clean as possible."

 

and if you knew what could you do? call the police?

 

[herfiehandbag]

1 hour ago, Logosone said:

It's bad enough that you try and portray the events at Celle as somehow indicating the barbarity of the people of Celle, who hosted you, when in fact it was the barbarity of the Allied bombing of civilians that led to over 2000 of the 4000 plus strong transport of prisoners to be killed by Allied bombs. Then you proceed to claim Germans who apprehended escaped inmates and killed 30 for looting were the real bad guys, ignoring that the Allied planes killed 2000 of those very same prisoners. It's pathetic.

 

Just like your attempt to equate David Irving's claims with mine, which are entirely different. However, talking about that trial, in it Evans makes clear that 

 

"the genocide was often described using euphemisms such as "special tasks" and "executive measures"; Einsatzgruppe victims were often described as having been shot while trying to escape"

 

Obviously because those responsible for the genocide knew it was against international law and attempted to keep it highly secret. Holocaust scholarship, even Evans, can't have it both ways, they can't claim on the one hand "Oh they took all these measures to keep it secret, used secret terminology "special treatment" meant killings, but on the other hand "Oh all Germans knew". It's a pathetic claim and obviously wrong.

1. The people of Celle did not "host me". I was stationed there, as part of an international alliance (NATO) intended to deter the very real threat of invasion of Western Europe by the Soviet Union, at, I might add, a very significant cost to the United Kingdom.

 

2. I went out of my way to mix with the local population, far more so than most of my peers. At the time I accepted their claimed ignorance of what had happened. I accepted that. Subsequent reading, both about Celle and the rest of Germany has led me to believe that knowledge of the genocidal policies enacted by the state, and involving a significant number of it's people, was much more widespread than they claimed.

 

3. I also said that I don't believe that the German People should pay an eternal price. But I do believe that members of that generation, who were active in the genocide system, should, whilst they survive, be brought to justice.

 

4. You are beginning to reveal what I suspect are your true colours - as one bent on revisionist interpretations of that evil creed and it's actions. An approach that has been utterly rebuffed by academic research and debate, the courts both in Germany and throughout the western world, and by the simple, factual accounts of history. As a German of a current generation you emphatically do not have to hang your head in shame at what happened; as a person who seeks to revise, shift blame to others, and justify by faux comparisons with the horrors of all out war what was done to the Jews and others by the NAZI state, and to further the ludicrous claim that the people, including those working in the system did not know what was happening, you should (be ashamed).

 

 

Edited July 27, 2020 by herfiehandbag

[The Barmbeker]

24 minutes ago, SCOTT FITZGERSLD said:

Germans...go figure...

I am German!

Please explain!

[stevenl]

16 minutes ago, SCOTT FITZGERSLD said:

and if you knew what could you do? call the police?

 

That's for a different discussion. The claim was 'Germans didn't know'. Many resources have shown this to be incorrect, but one poster is simply ignoring all that, and keeps saying 'Germans didn't know, see less than 1% of the Wehrmacht convicted of warcrimes.

 

Besides there being no relationship between the 2, he is simply ignoring all evidence against.

[Logosone]

28 minutes ago, stevenl said:

That's for a different discussion. The claim was 'Germans didn't know'. Many resources have shown this to be incorrect, but one poster is simply ignoring all that, and keeps saying 'Germans didn't know, see less than 1% of the Wehrmacht convicted of warcrimes.

 

Besides there being no relationship between the 2, he is simply ignoring all evidence against.

That is a completely false statement. There is absolutely no evidence that "Germans knew". 

 

This whole idea that 80 million people would know of a highly secretive operation of the state is akin to stating the entire population of the UK today knows of the top-secret operations of the UK.

 

It's frankly ludicrous. 

 

The fact is even Bruno Dey, a guard in the camp, did not know the full extent of the holocaust. In fact almost nobody did until many years after the war. 

[mfd101]

I have no wish to protect those who killed, brutalized or tortured helpless & innocent people. But I do find the Bruno Dey case rather disturbing.

 

In this case nowhere is it claimed that a 17-year-old boy killed, brutalized or tortured anyone. In effect he is punished for just being there, and wearing the wrong uniform.

 

Which is rather like what happened to the millions who were killed by the Nazis: They were just there, in the wrong place, and - as it were - wearing the wrong uniform.

 

The fact that the now old man is tried under children's court rules makes the whole virtue-waving process the more ridiculous. Ignorant, anachronistic & unjust.

[herfiehandbag]

55 minutes ago, Logosone said:

This whole idea that 80 million people would know of a highly secretive operation of the state is akin to stating the entire population of the UK today knows of the top-secret operations of the UK.

 

It's frankly ludicrous. 

That in itself is a ludicrous comparison.

 

Let us consider one of the perhaps largest

topsecret operations in the UK - the arrangements for storing and moving the UK's nuclear weapons. A small number of people are involved in this, it is carried out discretely, and in plain view. Many/most simply do not realise what the road vehicles or train which has just passed was carrying. It certainly does not have a banner attached reading "Nukes - please do not look!" This is top secret- the idea is that nobody notices, and only a very small number of people are party to it.

 

Now compare that with rounding up whole communities, and either marching them to an adjacent wood and shooting them, or putting them in crammed freight trains, which trundle for hundreds of kilometres through the public railway system to be unloaded a vast camps, from which they never emerge. Compare that with huge factories in which slave labour was literally worked to death, in full view of other workers. In the last month's, do you think that the general population did not notice the long columns of emaciated prisoners being brutally forcemarched westwards, again in full view, from the evacuated camps in the east?

 

To state, in the face of all the evidence that people did not know, is ludicrous. The claims of general ignorance advanced at the war's end were ignored, that does not mean they were accepted, and as far more information has emerged in recent years they have clearly been shown to have little foundation.

 

Frankly, only a miniscule proportion of the armed forces were convicted because with millions of surrendered personnel to be guarded, processed and released, there was neither the time, resources or will to conduct investigations to put them on trial.

In hindsight, that was perhaps a great failing, it led to frankly spurious "statistics" which can be used in peddling the revisionist theories which you have obviously bought into.

.

Edited July 27, 2020 by herfiehandbag

[Logosone]

4 minutes ago, herfiehandbag said:

Compare that with huge factories in which slave labour was literally worked to death, in full view of other workers. In the last month's, do you think that the general population did not notice the long columns of emaciated prisoners being brutally forcemarched westwards, again in full view, from the evacuated camps in the east?

 

 

You are obviously unaware that the huge death camps with factories were all located outside Germany.

 

There wasn't a single one in Germany,  all were in Poland. And of course the reason for that is obvious. Himmler complained time and time again of the sympathy ordinary Germans had for jews, that they did not understand the need for them to be exterminated, hence the death camps were all located outside Germany and the operations were kept secret.

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

14 minutes ago, Logosone said:

You are obviously unaware that the huge death camps with factories were all located outside Germany.

 

There wasn't a single one in Germany,  all were in Poland. And of course the reason for that is obvious. Himmler complained time and time again of the sympathy ordinary Germans had for jews, that they did not understand the need for them to be exterminated, hence the death camps were all located outside Germany and the operations were kept secret.

 

 

The Nazi regime might have tried to keep the death camps secret, but they failed to do so as Friedrich Kellner testifies in his contemporaneous diaries.

 

Added to which Hitler explicitly states his plans for the Jews in Mein Kampf, a book read by millions of Germans before and during the war.

[herfiehandbag]

10 minutes ago, Logosone said:

You are obviously unaware that the huge death camps with factories were all located outside Germany.

 

There wasn't a single one in Germany,  all were in Poland. And of course the reason for that is obvious. Himmler complained time and time again of the sympathy ordinary Germans had for jews, that they did not understand the need for them to be exterminated, hence the death camps were all located outside Germany and the operations were kept secret.

 

 

Mittelburg -Dora was at Nordhausen in Thuringia. Sachsenhausen was at Orianenburg, various of the Krupp works in the Ruhr were large scale users of concentration camp labour. Peenemunde on the Baltic coast of Mecklenburg; all major sites using forced labour by concentration camp inmates, all in Germany.

[stevenl]

10 minutes ago, Logosone said:

You are obviously unaware that the huge death camps with factories were all located outside Germany.

 

There wasn't a single one in Germany,  all were in Poland. And of course the reason for that is obvious. Himmler complained time and time again of the sympathy ordinary Germans had for jews, that they did not understand the need for them to be exterminated, hence the death camps were all located outside Germany and the operations were kept secret.

 

 

Again statements with which historians disagree. Death camps were located in Germany, in areas that Top Nazi's considered German.

 

By the time death camps really became deathcamps, after Wannsee in 1942, there were no Jews left in Germany, but still many, many in (formerly) Poland. So much more convenient to have the camps there.

Yes, it made it was better possible to hide the true extend from the German populace (but that doesn't mean they didn't know by the end of the war).

1939 Germany was geographically different from present day Germany. Auschwitz e.g. was in a part of Poland, annexed in 1939 by Germany.

[Logosone]

9 minutes ago, herfiehandbag said:

Mittelburg -Dora was at Nordhausen in Thuringia. Sachsenhausen was at Orianenburg, various of the Krupp works in the Ruhr were large scale users of concentration camp labour. Peenemunde on the Baltic coast of Mecklenburg; all major sites using forced labour by concentration camp inmates, all in Germany.

Absolutely ignorant codswallop, the extermination camps were outside of Germany, not in Germany:

 

"The major camps were in German-occupied Poland and included Auschwitz, Belzec, Chelmno, Majdanek, Sobibor, and Treblinka."

 

https://www.britannica.com/topic/extermination-camp

 

You are spreading completely false, misinformation. Mittelburg Dora was a labour camp, not an extermination camp, there were no gas chambers at Mittelburg-Dora whatsoever. Look it up and educate yourself.

[metisdead]

Off topic posts about Hiroshima and the replies have been removed. 

[Morch]

2 hours ago, Logosone said:

That is a completely false statement. There is absolutely no evidence that "Germans knew". 

 

This whole idea that 80 million people would know of a highly secretive operation of the state is akin to stating the entire population of the UK today knows of the top-secret operations of the UK.

 

It's frankly ludicrous. 

 

The fact is even Bruno Dey, a guard in the camp, did not know the full extent of the holocaust. In fact almost nobody did until many years after the war. 

 

It wasn't claimed all Germans knew. That's just a straw man argument you're pushing regardless of anything.

It wasn't claimed Dey knew the full extent of the Holocaust, that's a bogus point you made up.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, mfd101 said:

I have no wish to protect those who killed, brutalized or tortured helpless & innocent people. But I do find the Bruno Dey case rather disturbing.

 

In this case nowhere is it claimed that a 17-year-old boy killed, brutalized or tortured anyone. In effect he is punished for just being there, and wearing the wrong uniform.

 

Which is rather like what happened to the millions who were killed by the Nazis: They were just there, in the wrong place, and - as it were - wearing the wrong uniform.

 

The fact that the now old man is tried under children's court rules makes the whole virtue-waving process the more ridiculous. Ignorant, anachronistic & unjust.

 

He wasn't charged with brutalizing or torturing anyone, more to do with being an accessory to things. As far as I understand, he wasn't actually punished much, with his health, age and relative responsibility all being taken into account.

 

As for the millions killed by the Nazis - yeah, people held and murdered in these camps wore uniform. How does that make the comparison valid, I've no idea.

[stevenl]

4 hours ago, Morch said:

 

What is obvious is that you aim on this topic is to hammer in a revisionist agenda. Cherry-picking quotes, and attributing your own biased interpretations of them as definitive and factual is not going to change the fact scholars cited to not necessarily express exactly the same views as yours, or for that matter, that your own musings equate with referenced academic research. Also, there's that slight issue you're bent on ignoring - the court did not accept Dey's version.

 

I don't think it was claimed all Germans knew. More like you're using it as a straw man argument. 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, stevenl said:

Again statements with which historians disagree. Death camps were located in Germany, in areas that Top Nazi's considered German.

 

By the time death camps really became deathcamps, after Wannsee in 1942, there were no Jews left in Germany, but still many, many in (formerly) Poland. So much more convenient to have the camps there.

Yes, it made it was better possible to hide the true extend from the German populace (but that doesn't mean they didn't know by the end of the war).

1939 Germany was geographically different from present day Germany. Auschwitz e.g. was in a part of Poland, annexed in 1939 by Germany.

 

1 hour ago, Logosone said:

Lol, so the government took steps to keep the extermination camps secret but all Germans knew about it.

 

You people don't know how ridiculous you sound.

 

Really. 

See Morch's comments about cherry picking quotes and attributing your own biased interpretation.

[herfiehandbag]

1 hour ago, Logosone said:

Absolutely ignorant codswallop, the extermination camps were outside of Germany, not in Germany:

 

"The major camps were in German-occupied Poland and included Auschwitz, Belzec, Chelmno, Majdanek, Sobibor, and Treblinka."

 

https://www.britannica.com/topic/extermination-camp

 

You are spreading completely false, misinformation. Mittelburg Dora was a labour camp, not an extermination camp, there were no gas chambers at Mittelburg-Dora whatsoever. Look it up and educate yourself.

You yourself said;

 

2 hours ago, Logosone said:

You are obviously unaware that the huge death camps with factories were all located outside Germany.

I named 3 camps at which inmates were worked to death in factories and a further major industrial enterprise all within Germany. 

 

If we are talking ignorant codswallop, then you take the prize Mr Logosone, however "codswallop" is generally accepted as innocent rubbish, you however are deliberately spinning a web of disinformation, half truths and selective quotes in an attempt do defend the indefensible - the loathsome activities which we are discussing, and which you seek to diminish and excuse. The ghost of Dr Goebbels must be proud of you!

Edited July 27, 2020 by herfiehandbag

[JustAnotherHun]

3 hours ago, stevenl said:

Again statements with which historians disagree. Death camps were located in Germany, in areas that Top Nazi's considered German.

Afaik there were no "Vernichtungslager" inside Germany.

But who cares where exactly the Nazi-killers slaughtered their millions of victims?

[The Barmbeker]

 

5 hours ago, Logosone said:

That is a completely false statement. There is absolutely no evidence that "Germans knew". 

 

This whole idea that 80 million people would know of a highly secretive operation of the state is akin to stating the entire population of the UK today knows of the top-secret operations of the UK.

 

It's frankly ludicrous. 

 

The fact is even Bruno Dey, a guard in the camp, did not know the full extent of the holocaust. In fact almost nobody did until many years after the war. 

What is "frankly ludacris" is you behavior!

There was anti- jewish propaganda, that accused the Jewish People of everything and anything, except maybe eating babies with mustard and I am not even sure about that!

So you are German and you hear that kind of stuff, year in year out since the early 1930's and then your jewish neighbors, store owners etc. start vanishing or being picked up by the military police and have to leave their homes, with nothing more than a suitcase...

Where were they going?

On a holiday- trip to the Baltic Sea?

And NONE OF THEM ever came back!

Yeah...sounds plausible, no one had any idea, what was going on!

And when Warsaw was sealed off and turned into a Ghetto...no one had any inklink of what was going on?

It was not a "highly secretive operation", as you claim!

Edited July 27, 2020 by The Barmbeker

[The Barmbeker]

3 hours ago, Logosone said:

Absolutely ignorant codswallop, the extermination camps were outside of Germany, not in Germany:

 

"The major camps were in German-occupied Poland and included Auschwitz, Belzec, Chelmno, Majdanek, Sobibor, and Treblinka."

 

https://www.britannica.com/topic/extermination-camp

 

You are spreading completely false, misinformation. Mittelburg Dora was a labour camp, not an extermination camp, there were no gas chambers at Mittelburg-Dora whatsoever. Look it up and educate yourself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuengamme_concentration_camp

Just a stonethrow from my hometown of Hamburg!

You are an apologist of the worst kind and a few other things, I will not say, because they are not polite!

 

[The Barmbeker]

3 hours ago, Logosone said:

Absolutely ignorant codswallop, the extermination camps were outside of Germany, not in Germany:

 

"The major camps were in German-occupied Poland and included Auschwitz, Belzec, Chelmno, Majdanek, Sobibor, and Treblinka."

 

https://www.britannica.com/topic/extermination-camp

 

You are spreading completely false, misinformation. Mittelburg Dora was a labour camp, not an extermination camp, there were no gas chambers at Mittelburg-Dora whatsoever. Look it up and educate yourself.

A labor camp, you say?

Pleaese illuminate us: what kind of labor?

What were the conditions?

The "workers" were well fed, wore clothes matching the weather conditions, they were not living in quarters, that were overflowing and the medical facilies were top notch, I hear!

Ah...why even call it labor- camp?

It was a holiday resort!

 

Jesus man...get a grip!

Edited July 27, 2020 by The Barmbeker

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, The Barmbeker said:

A labor camp, you say?

Pleaese illuminate us: what kind of labor?

What were the conditions?

The "workers" were well fed, wore clothes matching the weather conditions, they were not living in quarters, that were overflowing and the medical facilies were top notch, I hear!

Ah...why even call it labor- camp?

It was a holiday resort!

 

Jesus man...get a grip!

Yeah and the slaves of the old American south were happy too. That's why they sang while they picked cotton. 

 

Some of the rhetoric here stinks of holocaust denial. Or worse. 

[Logosone]

2 hours ago, herfiehandbag said:

You yourself said;

 

I named 3 camps at which inmates were worked to death in factories and a further major industrial enterprise all within Germany. 

 

If we are talking ignorant codswallop, then you take the prize Mr Logosone, however "codswallop" is generally accepted as innocent rubbish, you however are deliberately spinning a web of disinformation, half truths and selective quotes in an attempt do defend the indefensible - the loathsome activities which we are discussing, and which you seek to diminish and excuse. The ghost of Dr Goebbels must be proud of you!

If you don't even know, or are incapable of understanding the distinction between an extermination camp and a camp that well, is not an extermination camp, then please read up a bit and come back when you understand that all the major Nazi extermination camps, Auschwitz, Belzec, Chelmno, Majdanek, Sobibor, and Treblinka, were all outside of Germany.

 

Since these camps were located outside of Germany rather difficult for a German houseswife in Darmstadt to find out what exactly was going there. 

 

Again, the very vast majority of Germans knew nothing about the killing of jews.