Pompeo urges more assertive approach to 'Frankenstein' China

[opalred]

trumps bum boys will say anything to take peoples focus away from there failures

do the trump trick blame someone else /he has done it all his life

its strange trump only has bum boys around him that can lie  like him

[warcy]

On 7/24/2020 at 8:58 AM, pgrahmm said:

By most any measure China is a rogue state spreading it's tentacles physically, economically, and brutishly.....

Really? China is doing exactly the same thing that USA and Britain was doing decades ago. Did you call USA a rogue state then?

 

 

[In the jungle]

A good piece in today's Guardian about Pompeo's attempt to build a multilateral response to China's malign actions:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jul/24/us-china-mike-pompeo-america-first

 

 

[Damual Travesty]

7 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

I think you mean the USA.

Give your examples please. Stay current.

[stevenl]

11 minutes ago, In the jungle said:

A good piece in today's Guardian about Pompeo's attempt to build a multilateral response to China's malign actions:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jul/24/us-china-mike-pompeo-america-first

 

 

Agree.

[Damual Travesty]

31 minutes ago, warcy said:

Really? China is doing exactly the same thing that USA and Britain was doing decades ago. Did you call USA a rogue state then?

 

 

No. What specifically are you arguing about here, history, or a current geo-political threat caused by a Nation that is threatening virtually all nations surrounding the South China sea, Taiwan, and even Japan. This is not a topic about decades past, and I am not sure what decades you are talking about. The USA was never a Colonial power, and even if it was, Colonialism can be argued to be a step toward the Capitalism today. Filled with ills and woes, as was early capitalism, and even capitalism today. But this is a conversation about a current situation which is real and happening right now. An argument that pretends to find comparison to a totalitarian Government of China and the development of democracies in the West, etc seems really out of place here as it does not address the issue of the threat being posed by China. If you wish to argue that there is no threat being posed by China then please do so, but history is not adding to the argument at all unless you are pointing to specifics of Chinese behaviour.

 

 

[stevenl]

1 minute ago, Damual Travesty said:

No. What specifically are you arguing about here, history, or a current geo-political threat caused by a Nation that is threatening virtually all nations surrounding the South China sea, Taiwan, and even Japan. This is not a topic about decades past, and I am not sure what decades you are talking about. The USA was never a Colonial power, and even if it was, Colonialism can be argued to be a step toward the Capitalism today. Filled with ills and woes, as was early capitalism, and even capitalism today. But this is a conversation about a current situation which is real and happening right now. An argument that pretends to find comparison to a totalitarian Government of China and the development of democracies in the West, etc seems really out of place here as it does not address the issue of the threat being posed by China. If you wish to argue that there is no threat being posed by China then please do so, but history is not adding to the argument at all unless you are pointing to specifics of Chinese behaviour.

 

 

USA wants others to join after first making very clear it is America first. Doesn't rhyme.

 

But your post did make me curious, how can it be argued that colonialism is a step towards capitalism? Unless you're talking exploiting others for your own gains?

[Damual Travesty]

16 minutes ago, In the jungle said:

A good piece in today's Guardian about Pompeo's attempt to build a multilateral response to China's malign actions:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jul/24/us-china-mike-pompeo-america-first

 

 

Jingoism and unilateralism? The writers confuse the Neo conservatives with the idea of withdrawal from unnecessary foreign entanglement. The Guardian is simply a leftest Anti-American newspaper and always has been. America first means that the United States wants to put itself first before worrying about other nations, this is what all nations do when they are being Governed properly. It means the security of your own people and their welfare come first. It does not have anything with wanting to control the entire world, or Jingoism. Something that the Trump administration has definitely NOT been engaged in. Trump is being faulted for NOT wishing to be overly engaged in the middle east or Europe. What is the purpose of NATO? Can you sum it up in one sentence? NATO can't. It was the Clinton administration and Europeans that wanted US bombing in the Baltic's was that part of the mutual defence of the USA and Europe? Bush and his neoconservative ideas of creating democracy in Iraq, Obama in Libya, these are not Trump. Trump is about reacting to a shifting world. The threat to the USA is not Putin. Europeans can handle the Russians can they not? China is the threat the USA faces and other Nations can judge for themselves if they view China as a threat - but Trump Jingoism? Absurd - written by people who do not even know what it is they are writing about.  No one should be in an alliance with the USA unless they want to be in one. Those that seem unhappy about being in one with the USA should get out.  A good thing for all. Time for new alliances to be formed. As I said earlier not a time for ambiguity.

[Damual Travesty]

6 minutes ago, stevenl said:

USA wants others to join after first making very clear it is America first. Doesn't rhyme.

 

But your post did make me curious, how can it be argued that colonialism is a step towards capitalism? Unless you're talking exploiting others for your own gains?

All Governments put their own people first - that is what the phrase means. It does not mean anything else.

 

Regarding history. Not interested in talking further on the subject. Exploiting, exploiters, these terms ignore that there has always been and always will be someone in power somewhere who makes a deal with someone. After the fact its easy to look back and talk about exploitation. Someone sold a slave to a buyer, someone sells land, someone sells resources, etc etc etc. Someone invites a military in to defend their own interests. Selfishness is something very human no getting away from it - so it seems.

[Morch]

On 7/24/2020 at 9:27 PM, Damual Travesty said:

Nationalism is being stoked - and this is not going to end well for China. That is for sure. The first skirmish will be very soon if they do not back off. Quickly. They are miscalculating U.S. resolve, and they had better build some more Navy before they decide to push their claims to the South China sea, and attack Taiwan. The better sooner then later idea they are having is going to end disastrously! War won't be very good for the Chinese economy that is for sure.

 

"Nationalism is being stoked..." - MAGA?

[Damual Travesty]

5 hours ago, GinBoy2 said:

I've struggled for the past 10 years or so about what exactly the purpose of NATO is in the 21st century.

 

I think the Obama policy of a pivot to Asia was correct for a couple of reasons.

 

I can't really see the prospect of mass tank movements on the Polish/Kaliningrad border in the same way as war games used to imagine tanks rolling over the border into West Germany. 

 

I think Putin, as Head Spook in Chief, has rather cleverly recognized cyber warfare and destabilization is a much more effective, and cheaper way to cripple the West.

 

In the East however, China is the USSR of the 50's & 60's pursuing aggressive military solutions and that in my mind at least demand that the US do, as it did/does in Europe have a robust military in the region

 

So that leaves me wondering what NATO is really for. I don't see the point of having permanent US bases in Europe. Europe is not a poor region it can afford its own defense, with an American alliance of some sort, but not the NATO of today.

 

I would move every single man and piece of machinery out of Europe and redeploy them to Asia. That would send the right signal to the people who need to hear the message.  

I think that the Obama "Pivot to Asia" it needs to be said was only words of appeasement to give the appearance of doing something, as was often the case with Obama- and his administration of Clintonians - words were spoken that had zero to do with the facts of what actually happened. What actually happened was nothing, other then Chinese appeasement, North Korean appeasement, Russian appeasement, Iran appeasement.

 

South China sea islands all built up under Obama, falling apart of relationship with Philippines under Obama, nothing happened under Obama other then negatives. They abandoned all ideas of REALISM in foreign policy and replaced it with human rights based policy which seemed to focus more on how homosexuals are treated around the world more then anything else. I do not wish to see anyone mistreated anywhere, but such a policy that bases everything on perceived human rights abuses while ignoring obvious threats solved nothing. what I mean is that they kept that issue front and centre as candy for the base "look at us we brought this issue up"  as if bringing an issue up does anything. They gave everything away. While claiming to talk tough on human rights because it plays well for the media.

 

Obama gave Iran back their Billions, gave China the South China sea for all practical purposes. Tell me how the USA is going to dislodge the Chinese from their man made Island aircraft carrier like bases (on stolen territory, short of major war? Not going to happen. Unless China really pulls a stupid, and attacks US shipping, not much the USA can do. Sleeping for 8 years under Obama allowed that to happen. People here really have no idea what the differences are in foreign policy between Trump and Obama back to Bush. The Democrat party is all smoke and mirrors. They only want to do business with China, they don't care about long term geo strategic threats.  What did they do? Nothing.

[stevenl]

22 minutes ago, Damual Travesty said:

All Governments put their own people first - that is what the phrase means. It does not mean anything else.

 

Regarding history. Not interested in talking further on the subject. Exploiting, exploiters, these terms ignore that there has always been and always will be someone in power somewhere who makes a deal with someone. After the fact its easy to look back and talk about exploitation. Someone sold a slave to a buyer, someone sells land, someone sells resources, etc etc etc. Someone invites a military in to defend their own interests. Selfishness is something very human no getting away from it - so it seems.

So you claim an argument can be made, but can not make it.

No surprise.

[Damual Travesty]

2 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

"Nationalism is being stoked..." - MAGA?

You are correct here in that Nationalism is being stoked in the USA as well, but there is a difference. Can you see it? One Country is Democratic with an elections every two years, four years for President, and the other is not. The other has declared that they will allow Xi to be President for life. Have President's for life ever worked out well for the world. You seem to want to keep comparing China to the USA. Is it the bi-party system of the USA that you equate with the Chinese CCP? In power forever? Do you not see what is happening in the world regarding China in the South China sea, Hong Kong, threats to Taiwan and Japan etc. I get it. You do not like the President of the United States, but what kind of policy would you prefer that the USA be engaged in is a more pertinent question at the moment.  The big bad Orange man has four more years at the most. China is building ships man. For a purpose, that they have outlined very well in their last five year plan. You should read it.  The USA and other Countries as well - need something very important right now - the National will to face an obvious threat.

[Damual Travesty]

Just now, stevenl said:

So you claim an argument can be made, but can not make it.

No surprise.

I claim the argument does not need to be made further. I think it would be hard for us to be where we are today had the previous steps of colonialism not taken place, but you can argue that with someone who wants to. I think it's obvious and alternate potential history is not something I wish to engage in. It's a fact Colonialism happened.

[Morch]

5 minutes ago, Damual Travesty said:

You are correct here in that Nationalism is being stoked in the USA as well, but there is a difference. Can you see it? One Country is Democratic with an elections every two years, four years for President, and the other is not. The other has declared that they will allow Xi to be President for life. Have President's for life ever worked out well for the world. You seem to want to keep comparing China to the USA. Is it the bi-party system of the USA that you equate with the Chinese CCP? In power forever? Do you not see what is happening in the world regarding China in the South China sea, Hong Kong, threats to Taiwan and Japan etc. I get it. You do not like the President of the United States, but what kind of policy would you prefer that the USA be engaged in is a more pertinent question at the moment.  The big bad Orange man has four more years at the most. China is building ships man. For a purpose, that they have outlined very well in their last five year plan. You should read it.  The USA and other Countries as well - need something very important right now - the National will to face an obvious threat.

 

No, I did not compare the USA with the PRC in the way you imply. I'd suggest reading some of my posts on this and related topics before barking up the wrong tree. What I was aiming at is that some of the more excitable posters on these topics are also Trump supporters. Whether you like it or not, Trump doesn't do much for democracy in the USA, to the USA being internationally perceived as a bastion of democracy or even to the level of international cooperation required to counter the PRC. 

 

It's all very well going on about the PRC. It would be even better if these things were argued from a better position with regard to the USA's own issues.

[Dumbastheycome]

On 7/24/2020 at 5:09 PM, DogNo1 said:

Democracy is quite durable and the US will likely find many allies in its fight against the CCP.  So far as not actively resisting the CCP, are you aware of the numerous demonstrations in China over the years and the actions of the citizens of Hong Kong?  

The USA has indeed done horrendous things. Whether or not they were justified depends on your interpretation of history.

Should  History be a variable "interpretation"  or a complete  genuine record that obviates  interpretation?

 

 

[shdmn]

To anyone who hasn't figured it out yet.  This is yet another distraction.  The goal is to blame China in order to distract Americans from things they don't want Americans hearing about.  You can pretty much guess what that is.  In fact Trump praised China for rounding up the Uighurs.

Edited July 25, 2020 by shdmn

[riclag]

1 hour ago, shdmn said:

To anyone who hasn't figured it out yet.  This is yet another distraction.  The goal is to blame China in order to distract Americans from things they don't want Americans hearing about.  You can pretty much guess what that is.  In fact Trump praised China for rounding up the Uighurs.

No its not ! China is to blame for

180 plus countries all sharing  the same commonality!

Billions of Billions of dollars of economic hardships ! Hundreds of thousands of people all over the world have died!

And guess what it was originally detected  in China! 

Nice Try! 

Edited July 25, 2020 by riclag

[DrTuner]

2 hours ago, shdmn said:

To anyone who hasn't figured it out yet.  This is yet another distraction.  The goal is to blame China in order to distract Americans from things they don't want Americans hearing about.  You can pretty much guess what that is.  In fact Trump praised China for rounding up the Uighurs.

Not this time. It's China vs. Free world. US is just one part.

[Damual Travesty]

9 hours ago, Dumbastheycome said:

Should  History be a variable "interpretation"  or a complete  genuine record that obviates  interpretation?

 

 

This sentence is an absurdity. Historians spend their entire lives attempting to interpret the historical record. History is not only a chronology of events, but also a chronology of why events took place, including the human motivations behind them for better or worse. Human beings will always differ on these interpretations. Scholars argue with each other all the time.

[JensenZ]

On 7/24/2020 at 10:17 AM, TooBigToFit said:

Frankenstein regime in US calling someone else Frankenstein?

Fortunately the US voting public can decide who will lead. They will decide in 3 months, and IMO people like you might be amazed, surprised or shocked at the support Trump has. The Chinese don't have a choice - that's a big difference don't you think.

 

The real Frankenstein in the US is actually the Democratic Party.

Edited July 26, 2020 by JensenZ

[Cryingdick]

Come on man, China isn't out to get us or eat our lunch.

[Enzian]

1 hour ago, Cryingdick said:

Come on man, China isn't out to get us or eat our lunch.

Years ago when I was paying a lot for my son to go to a private school, I one day told him You have get better grades or those asian kids are going to eat your lunch. Being a natural smartass, he said My lunch today wasn't very good anyway. Now he's married to a Vietnamese girl and they have two kids; so those asian kids are going to be eating his breakfast lunch and dinner. And asia is rising. I hope the quote above was sarcastic, or just an imitation of Biden.

[RobFord]

On 7/24/2020 at 10:24 AM, PatOngo said:

Who's side would you rather be on? Can you speak Mandarin and eat bats?

All that “who’s side would you rather be on” changed with Trump. I will never give the benefit of doubt again.

[Stocky]

If the USA found this 'Frankenstein' China so abhorrent, surely they would prohibit them from buying anymore US Treasury Securities, and be making a concerted effort to buy back the $1.2 trillion already held.

 

 

...Yeah right.

[SCOTT FITZGERSLD]

i enjoyed myself when i visited china.

friendly and calm people.

i am so sorry this virus ever came.

i wish u.s. and china will be good friends again.

[Eric Loh]

14 hours ago, shdmn said:

To anyone who hasn't figured it out yet.  This is yet another distraction.  The goal is to blame China in order to distract Americans from things they don't want Americans hearing about.  You can pretty much guess what that is.  In fact Trump praised China for rounding up the Uighurs.

This is building up to the election and Trump’s mother of all blame for China interference in the election and causing him to lose. Trump’s administration have cease talking about Russia for good number of months. 

[DrTuner]

2 hours ago, SCOTT FITZGERSLD said:

i wish u.s. and china will be good friends again.

For that to happen, CCP must go and Deng II take up the building of democratic China. Or let Taiwan invade China. Communism must die.

[melvinmelvin]

On 7/25/2020 at 4:31 AM, Damual Travesty said:

A rather strange quote here. Vietnam is under direct Chinese threat regarding loss of territorial waters, and fishing rights due to Chinese incursion - while Laos is a very poor country dependent upon China. What point are you making? Simply asking for clarification as to your meaning.

those two countries are so called communist countries,

treating them as suggested in entry #46 will not gain anybody except keeping those in the US dealing with such policies busy

 

[melvinmelvin]

On 7/25/2020 at 4:37 AM, Damual Travesty said:

Of course not, but perhaps you could concede that the USA aided a little bit in that effort?

yes it did, largely paid for by the uk

 

(Russia also chipped in quite a bit)