Explainer: Pandemic behaviour - Why some people don't play by the rules

[BritManToo]

1 hour ago, Captain Monday said:

and you have why in the US we experience a virus out of control and mass death.

170,000 out of 330,000,000 = 0.05%

Hardly mass death.

[englishoak]

29 minutes ago, thaibreakfast said:

Do you also think that it makes no difference whether you drive drunk or sober? These rules aren't just about protecting yourself but also about protecting others.

Why dont you just finish the line... protect the NHS, Save lives... oh please spare me the sanctimonious clap trap... I dont drive when drunk but theres still a risk ill be in a motor accident and i still drive.. I knowingly take that risk and risk others when sober.. I dont have the virus and if I knew I did id stay at home, but im not wearing a nosebag in case I might that is just BS and im driving sober too despite the chance i could be in an accident..

 

TB kills more every year and has forever... wheres the mass investment there and they have had decades ? . There no will to and Its because it dosnt affect the wealthy is why.  We add 100 million a year to the population. despite all deaths combined.. and people are freaking out about less than a million deaths GLOBALLY... more die from lack of clean water and longterm illness due to water born disiease and viruses that stay in the body, its totally fixable yet  even now in most of Asia you are advised dont drink the water from a tap...why is that ? its because they dont care about the masses who have to take that risk,  not those who can afford the best care an living... its about power, propaganda, fear and control.. governments dont care about people, look what they are doing to peoples lives and livehoods  for a paltry 1% risk to just some despite that kids under 15 are virtually immune.. ?  besides most of these powerful control freaks are old with major underlying issues and ergo high risk... ever thought about whos the ones really scared of catching C19 and dying ? those with the most to lose imo and they control the narrative. Hence all the hype and media BS imo...

 

 

 

 

Edited August 14, 2020 by englishoak

[stouricks]

33 minutes ago, thaibreakfast said:

What exactly are they doing to children here? They are sitting at their desks that are equipped with the same kind of barriers you can find in restaurants. 

Does the plastic sheet keep the virus OUT or IN. The UK Govt cancelled 50 million face masks last week because they had ear-loops and did not 'fit properly'. The plastic visors some people wear do not sit tight on the face anyway, but I guess those are supposed to stop infection from someone NOT wearing a mask getting into their eyes. 

[micmichd]

45 minutes ago, englishoak said:

 

Yup your aware a common cold or the flu can kill the infirm and have you ever locked yourself down out of concern  ? nope you havnt.. 

 

Im also aware when i get in the car i could have a ping pong accident and kill someone, but i still drive .. how many deaths on the road in Thailand annually ? do you get in a car or go on the road  ? 

Yes, I know. 

We face the common cold and flu from Europe every winter. And that's probably one of the reasons why Thais get immune so fast. 

 

In Thailand I don't drive although I have a driving licence. My Thai lady drives. And she never made any accident in the roads so far. 

[englishoak]

1 minute ago, micmichd said:

Yes, I know. 

We face the common cold and flu from Europe every winter. And that's probably one of the reasons why Thais get immune so fast. 

 

In Thailand I don't drive although I have a driving licence. My Thai lady drives. And she never made any accident in the roads so far. 

Thais get immune to what the flu or colds from Europe ? ridiculous. You think colds and flu come out of Europe ? nope new strains mostly originate in Asia not Europe. Most influenza viruses that infect humans seem to originate in parts of Asia https://www.webmd.com/cold-and-flu/qa/where-do-influenza-viruses-originate-and-how-do-they-mutate

 

Do you have any idea how many get fever and colds in Thailand every rainy season ? literally millions. I personally know 5 Thais who have lost family members to flu, pneumonia and fever, 2 were under 20. I dont know the figures that die annually but they arnt immune I can assure you. The same could be said for those working in hospitals. its really  a high risk job, not including C19 the number who contract serious illness at work and the number who die because of it is actually quite staggering, life is a risk. 

 

I rode Motorbikes all the time while living In Thailand knowing full well the risks, ive had my spills I just never let what "could" hurt me from living my life as I choose. I hope you continue to stay safe on the roads, just remember others on the road arnt your wife. ????

 

[JCauto]

3 hours ago, Brunolem said:

This was true in the times of Darwin and Einstein, much less today.

 

A Japanese or a South Korean has as much opportunity and help to perform as an American or an Italian, and yet there is still more creativity and discovery by the latter, while the former are still more inclined to imitate and copy.

 

Just one example: the smartphone...a Steve Jobs creation, then copied by South Korea (Samsung) and China (Huawei and many others).

 

Being creative is different from being smart, or smarter than the others.

 

In fact, Asians generally perform much better than Westerners in most international contests (maths, physics and so on), but they are wired differently, for cultural reasons dating back centuries.

 

These differences also explain why Asia is doing much better than the West when it comes to dealing with the pandemic.

 

One can't have it both ways...each his own victories...

I understand that this is what seems to be the case according to "common knowledge", but is it true? I am guessing that the same sorts of systemic prejudices that we see everywhere exist also within the Nobel Committee. I know it is certainly the case with respect to many of the women pioneers of science, many of whom are simply not known because their discoveries and work were simply stolen from them along with the credit by their male supervisors. Remember, women weren't even ALLOWED in universities until well into the 20th century in many places.

[geriatrickid]

1 hour ago, englishoak said:

Why dont you just finish the line... protect the NHS, Save lives... oh please spare me the sanctimonious clap trap... I dont drive when drunk but theres still a risk ill be in a motor accident and i still drive.. I knowingly take that risk and risk others when sober.. I dont have the virus and if I knew I did id stay at home, but im not wearing a nosebag in case I might that is just BS and im driving sober too despite the chance i could be in an accident..

 

TB kills more every year and has forever... wheres the mass investment there and they have had decades ? . There no will to and Its because it dosnt affect the wealthy is why.  We add 100 million a year to the population. despite all deaths combined.. and people are freaking out about less than a million deaths GLOBALLY... more die from lack of clean water and longterm illness due to water born disiease and viruses that stay in the body, its totally fixable yet  even now in most of Asia you are advised dont drink the water from a tap...why is that ? its because they dont care about the masses who have to take that risk,  not those who can afford the best care an living... its about power, propaganda, fear and control.. governments dont care about people, look what they are doing to peoples lives and livehoods  for a paltry 1% risk to just some despite that kids under 15 are virtually immune.. ?  besides most of these powerful control freaks are old with major underlying issues and ergo high risk... ever thought about whos the ones really scared of catching C19 and dying ? those with the most to lose imo and they control the narrative. Hence all the hype and media BS imo...

 

Let's work your comments through: 

I dont have the virus and if I knew I did id stay at home, but im not wearing a nosebag in case I might that is just BS

How do you know you are not infected? Are you regularly tested?  You cannot offer a guarantee that you would not infect others before it was discovered you were a carrier.

If you are so certain, would you be willing accept full liability for the physical injury and financial injury of those who you might infect?  A jail sentence for physical assault and a manslaughter charge for those who died along with  full financial indemnification for all losses suffered and the cost to the public health system.

 

TB kills more every year and has forever... wheres the mass investment there and they have had decades ?

There is massive annual spending on TB control, treatment and eradication.  it's in the billions of USD. More money has been spent on  TB than SARS, MERS and  Ebola research.

TB is a scourge in poor countries. Although still present in wealthier parts of the world, TB does not disrupt national economies as Covid 19 does.  The August 3 edition of the Lancet  had this report;

Total spending on tuberculosis in 135 low-income and middle-income countries increased annually by 3·9% (95% CI 3·0 to 4·6), from $5·7 billion (5·2 to 6·5) in 2000 to $10·9 billion (10·3 to 11·8) in 2017. 

That's nothing to dismiss. More importantly, there are still successful treatments available. No one in  wealthier countries has to die because there is no treatment available.

 

Yes,  contaminated drinking water is a serious concern, but again it does not disrupt the international economy the way Covid 19 does. Millions of people in South America cannot access clean drinking water but it isn't stopping you from traveling to and from thailand is it? 

 

The  reality is that if a few thousand kids  die of starvation in Zimbabwe or thousands die because of war in Yemen, no one really cares because it can be contained to another place, out of sight and out of mind.  very different from Covid19 which is an equal opportunity messenger of suffering and ruin.

 

You have been spared the ravages of Covid19 because other people have engaged in responsible and prudent behavior. Your luck will  eventually run out if you continue to undermine those efforts.

 

What do you know about the  physical impact of Covid19? Your position requires that the infection inflict no long term damage. Well, we are now seeing that it does. In the USA, the  universities  have suspended their football season because they are observing inflamed hearts in too many young people who had Covid19.  The patients should recover, but it will take months. In the USA, there were 90 pediatric deaths due to Covid19. This was during the suspension of classes. What do you think will happen once classes resume?  The US CDC has now stated that it believes that Covid 19 will be the 3rd leading cause of death in 2020 (after cancer and heart disease).

 

It's wonderful that you have such an indepth knowledge of the infection.  you dismiss  elderly people as expendable.  Go tell that to the millions of people who lost their parents.  Your attitude is  ageist and discriminatory.  A 70 year old today is often as active and as contributing to society as a 50 year old was in 1960.

 

It's not the old people who are causing the  economic issues. Rather it is the 40-60 year olds who are most likely to be infected now. When they go down, the economy and families really suffer. Try and run a family unit when the mother or father  is taken out of action, especially if it is a one parent family or that parent is the primary caregiver for others.

 

Why not just be honest and recognize that you are selfish and care only about your personal comfort and needs? This is what it is all about  selfishness.

Edited August 14, 2020 by geriatrickid

[micmichd]

1 hour ago, englishoak said:

Thais get immune to what the flu or colds from Europe ? ridiculous. You think colds and flu come out of Europe ? nope new strains mostly originate in Asia not Europe. Most influenza viruses that infect humans seem to originate in parts of Asia https://www.webmd.com/cold-and-flu/qa/where-do-influenza-viruses-originate-and-how-do-they-mutate

 

Do you have any idea how many get fever and colds in Thailand every rainy season ? literally millions. I personally know 5 Thais who have lost family members to flu, pneumonia and fever, 2 were under 20. I dont know the figures that die annually but they arnt immune I can assure you. The same could be said for those working in hospitals. its really  a high risk job, not including C19 the number who contract serious illness at work and the number who die because of it is actually quite staggering, life is a risk. 

 

I rode Mo torbikes all the time while living In Thailand knowing full well the risks, ive had my spills I just never let what "could" hurt me from living my life as I choose. I hope you continue to stay safe on the roads, just remember others on the road arnt your wife. ????

 

You can train your immune system. 

Symptoms of flu are not so serious, one or two days and you're over it. 

When CoviD-19 started in Pattaya, they quarantined half of the bargirls in Soi 6 - and then released them because it was only the flu. 

Different in hospitals of course, because people in there are already sick. But wearing masks is normal procedure for medical staff. 

 

I try to stay safe in the roads. Hopefully there will be no drunk idiot driver crashing in our car or motorbike. I once had to stop a drunk idiot motorbike driver (an American) by my feet because he was heading into a bunch of women with children during rush hour. Nothing much happened though. 

[johnnybangkok]

4 hours ago, JCauto said:

Thanks to our TV British friends for providing further evidence, although not actually needed, that the observations were spot on.

Even an article specifically explaining why you are fools only spurs further behaviour of exactly the sort described. No hope for such selfish societies.

Here, here! I was thinking exactly the same.

The funny thing is I genuinely don't think they see the irony in disagreeing with an article that is literally explaining their actions. 

But in todays world of internet experts and anecdotal 'evidence' there really is no point in engaging. They will not be told and genuinely believe that scientists, scholars, teachers, economists and journalists have all devoted their entire lives to deceiving them in some sort of world wide conspiracy. And they've got plenty of other people to aid them in their echo chamber 'cos the internets REALLY good at bringing together nutters.

It would all be quite laughable if it wasn't quite so deadly. 

 

[thaibreakfast]

2 hours ago, stouricks said:

Does the plastic sheet keep the virus OUT or IN. 

Because it can't do both?

Keeping the virus in prevents it from infecting other students at their desks

Keeping it out prevents it from infecting the student at her desk.

[JCauto]

20 minutes ago, geriatrickid said:

Let's work your comments through: 

 

Why not just be honest and recognize that you are selfish and care only about your personal comfort and needs? This is what it is all about  selfishness.

Another excellent post that exposes the real thing underlying this brave "hero" and his steadfast refusal to wear a "nosebag". And your solution is perfect - full criminal and civil liability for passing on the virus for people who deliberately refused to take any precautions.

[johnnybangkok]

2 hours ago, englishoak said:

Why dont you just finish the line... protect the NHS, Save lives... oh please spare me the sanctimonious clap trap... I dont drive when drunk but theres still a risk ill be in a motor accident and i still drive.. I knowingly take that risk and risk others when sober.. I dont have the virus and if I knew I did id stay at home, but im not wearing a nosebag in case I might that is just BS and im driving sober too despite the chance i could be in an accident..

 

TB kills more every year and has forever... wheres the mass investment there and they have had decades ? . There no will to and Its because it dosnt affect the wealthy is why.  We add 100 million a year to the population. despite all deaths combined.. and people are freaking out about less than a million deaths GLOBALLY... more die from lack of clean water and longterm illness due to water born disiease and viruses that stay in the body, its totally fixable yet  even now in most of Asia you are advised dont drink the water from a tap...why is that ? its because they dont care about the masses who have to take that risk,  not those who can afford the best care an living... its about power, propaganda, fear and control.. governments dont care about people, look what they are doing to peoples lives and livehoods  for a paltry 1% risk to just some despite that kids under 15 are virtually immune.. ?  besides most of these powerful control freaks are old with major underlying issues and ergo high risk... ever thought about whos the ones really scared of catching C19 and dying ? those with the most to lose imo and they control the narrative. Hence all the hype and media BS imo...

 

 

 

 

It has been conservatively estimated that without lockdown, face masks and social distancing, C19 would have killed more than 3 million in Europe and over 7 million worldwide https://www.bbc.com/news/health-52968523

 

But yeah TB.

[skorp13]

I can't speak for all countries but as Americans we are an individualistic society. Also right now a very divided one. The main problem is the media has been so dishonest for so long now we simply don't trust them anymore which is why we were so slow in complying and taking it seriously

[BritManToo]

1 hour ago, JCauto said:

I know it is certainly the case with respect to many of the women pioneers of science,

There are none.

Almost all original thought is done by white males of Germanic descent.

They are the men that created our current civilisation, and nothing politically correct can be done to change that.

[JCauto]

12 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

There are none.

Almost all original thought is done by white males of Germanic descent.

They are the men that created our current civilisation, and nothing politically correct can be done to change that.

5555555! Yes, those women, Asians and darkies haven't had an original thought in their heads for the eternity of time! It's entirely due to White Germanic males! Are Jews White Germanic Males? How about Frenchies? Scandinavians? Russians? Seems that your thesis may not withstand much scrutiny.

But you seem a highly curious and intellectually open individual, so allow me to add to what no doubt is a lengthy reading list.

https://www.biography.com/news/alice-ball-female-scientists
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/5/130519-women-scientists-overlooked-dna-history-science/
https://listverse.com/2013/10/14/10-groundbreaking-women-scientists-written-off-by-history/

 

There are several women repeated within these lists, but together there are 15 or so excellent examples of what I was talking about. Now those are only the ones we know of, meaning that this likely has been happening throughout history and still today.

 

 

[robblok]

20 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

This makes a lot of sense... 

 

It seems to me that the Brits and Americans have some sort of subconscious anarchistic impulse to at first question anything official and then fight the consensus. 

 

 

Not just Brits, in my country there were some speakers that were denying COVID having all kinds of conspiracy theories and attacking the government. They were allowed to do so during their demonstration. Its sad that false news like this can be spouted. I understand there is a fine line but when idiots start saying things that vaccines change DNA and stuff like that. I wish they could be punished for saying things that are proven untrue. 

 

Those tinfoil hat people make it harder for all of us. 

[Dap]

Reply to title:  Completely self-absorbed and incredibly ignorant! 

Edited August 14, 2020 by Dap

[connda]

22 hours ago, baansgr said:

Simply they are too thick to understand the severity

On the flip side, those who bend a knee either live in a collectivist culture/society or simply embrace collectivist (socialistic/communistic/marxist/green) ideals and as such are easily swayed by centralized collectivist propaganda issued by those whom they consider to be "trusted authorities."

Individualist are not "too thick" but on the contrary they don't simply believe what they are told and instead use they own individual God-given intelligence to understand the issues that illicit a knee-jerk reaction from collectivist who simply do not question anything.  So, not "too thick" but perhaps too analytical.

Individuals scare the heck of of collectivists.  And why not.  They do unpredictable things such as refusing to "obey their leaders" whom they probably didn't vote for.

Good article although the authors probably are collectivists.  But they make good observations. 

 

[connda]

2 hours ago, BritManToo said:

There are none.

Almost all original thought is done by white males of Germanic descent.

They are the men that created our current civilisation, and nothing politically correct can be done to change that.

I'm of the opinion that an earth-facing X-20+ Class Coronal Mass Ejection will probably be the grand-reset that sets that particular historical anomaly on it's head.  Although not quiet the "Grand-Reset" that these folk have in mind.  <laughs>

[Rancid]

Once upon a time objective thinking was respected, in today's world that has been replaced with just following the media narrative. This despite the media been renowned liars and purveyors of false information. That is not to say alt sites are to be trusted either, some are honest others not.

 

We should be able to think, study information and come to a decision, this is frowned upon as doing so will often lead to coming to an unapproved opinion.

 

With covid there are diverse opinions and from respected people. My reading is that it is a nasty virus similar to a bad flu, as such there is no need for fascist lock downs that destroy peoples livelihoods and take away their freedoms. Regardless we are going to get fascism whether we agree or not, then of course the dodgy vaccine will arrive, sicken the many and profit the few. Dark times indeed, perhaps being a Lemming is easier.

[pookondee]

9 minutes ago, Rancid said:

Once upon a time objective thinking was respected, in today's world that has been replaced with just following the media narrative. This despite the media been renowned liars and purveyors of false information. That is not to say alt sites are to be trusted either, some are honest others not.

 

We should be able to think, study information and come to a decision, this is frowned upon as doing so will often lead to coming to an unapproved opinion.

 

With covid there are diverse opinions and from respected people. My reading is that it is a nasty virus similar to a bad flu, as such there is no need for fascist lock downs that destroy peoples livelihoods and take away their freedoms. Regardless we are going to get fascism whether we agree or not, then of course the dodgy vaccine will arrive, sicken the many and profit the few. Dark times indeed, perhaps being a Lemming is easier.

If there had been some evil sadistic villian plotting the downfall of the world, he could not have worked it out better than this.

 

Usually money, greed and pleasure are great motivators, but this goes beyond all that, because raw FEAR is absolutely the best way to carry out the control and brain-washing that has gone on.

 

Mix that with some paranoia, and a bit of Xenophobia, blaming all foriegners (regardless of what country you are in) 

for spreading the evil Covid.

 

Through our social media, Its all been a man made creation of a perfect storm.

 

And Sanity should of prevailed, since some 95%+ will get over this like a flu, but of course, the media bombardment of all things negative has brainwashed people into believing even a small dose is a death sentance.

 

[Captain Monday]

13 hours ago, englishoak said:

 

Yup your aware a common cold or the flu can kill the infirm and have you ever locked yourself down out of concern  ? nope you havnt.. 

 

Im also aware when i get in the car i could have a ping pong accident and kill someone, but i still drive .. how many deaths on the road in Thailand annually ? do you get in a car or go on the road  ? 

Only a dullard could accept as valid a comparison between a deadly novel coronavirus, and common rhinovirus suffered 2-3 times a year by the average adult. Seasonal flu is already held at bay by established herd immunity and existing effective vaccines . There is no vaccine for covid-19 and no firm evidence of existing immunity in any population. 

 

Riding in a car in any country is actually a choice unless one is a child. Getting traffic deaths to near zero anywhere would require a radical rebuild of entire geographies and banning private use of cars. Is reduction of road deaths in Thailand to acceptable levels likely without strict training and licensing even possible? Who would actually enforce the law? The RTP?  

 

 

[thaibreakfast]

12 hours ago, skorp13 said:

I can't speak for all countries but as Americans we are an individualistic society. Also right now a very divided one. The main problem is the media has been so dishonest for so long now we simply don't trust them anymore which is why we were so slow in complying and taking it seriously

Nothing at all to do with Trump having consistently denigrated mask-wearing? Even now, he violates the White House's own guidelines. He politicized public health issues.

[englishoak]

19 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

Let's work your comments through: 

I dont have the virus and if I knew I did id stay at home, but im not wearing a nosebag in case I might that is just BS

How do you know you are not infected? Are you regularly tested?  You cannot offer a guarantee that you would not infect others before it was discovered you were a carrier.

If you are so certain, would you be willing accept full liability for the physical injury and financial injury of those who you might infect?  A jail sentence for physical assault and a manslaughter charge for those who died along with  full financial indemnification for all losses suffered and the cost to the public health system.

 

TB kills more every year and has forever... wheres the mass investment there and they have had decades ?

There is massive annual spending on TB control, treatment and eradication.  it's in the billions of USD. More money has been spent on  TB than SARS, MERS and  Ebola research.

TB is a scourge in poor countries. Although still present in wealthier parts of the world, TB does not disrupt national economies as Covid 19 does.  The August 3 edition of the Lancet  had this report;

Total spending on tuberculosis in 135 low-income and middle-income countries increased annually by 3·9% (95% CI 3·0 to 4·6), from $5·7 billion (5·2 to 6·5) in 2000 to $10·9 billion (10·3 to 11·8) in 2017. 

That's nothing to dismiss. More importantly, there are still successful treatments available. No one in  wealthier countries has to die because there is no treatment available.

 

Yes,  contaminated drinking water is a serious concern, but again it does not disrupt the international economy the way Covid 19 does. Millions of people in South America cannot access clean drinking water but it isn't stopping you from traveling to and from thailand is it? 

 

The  reality is that if a few thousand kids  die of starvation in Zimbabwe or thousands die because of war in Yemen, no one really cares because it can be contained to another place, out of sight and out of mind.  very different from Covid19 which is an equal opportunity messenger of suffering and ruin.

 

You have been spared the ravages of Covid19 because other people have engaged in responsible and prudent behavior. Your luck will  eventually run out if you continue to undermine those efforts.

 

What do you know about the  physical impact of Covid19? Your position requires that the infection inflict no long term damage. Well, we are now seeing that it does. In the USA, the  universities  have suspended their football season because they are observing inflamed hearts in too many young people who had Covid19.  The patients should recover, but it will take months. In the USA, there were 90 pediatric deaths due to Covid19. This was during the suspension of classes. What do you think will happen once classes resume?  The US CDC has now stated that it believes that Covid 19 will be the 3rd leading cause of death in 2020 (after cancer and heart disease).

 

It's wonderful that you have such an indepth knowledge of the infection.  you dismiss  elderly people as expendable.  Go tell that to the millions of people who lost their parents.  Your attitude is  ageist and discriminatory.  A 70 year old today is often as active and as contributing to society as a 50 year old was in 1960.

 

It's not the old people who are causing the  economic issues. Rather it is the 40-60 year olds who are most likely to be infected now. When they go down, the economy and families really suffer. Try and run a family unit when the mother or father  is taken out of action, especially if it is a one parent family or that parent is the primary caregiver for others.

 

Why not just be honest and recognize that you are selfish and care only about your personal comfort and needs? This is what it is all about  selfishness.

The only thing preventing me from travelling to Thailand is the Thai government nothing else. I have travelled all over the globe to many regions where risks are high and numerous disease is rampant, fear of what I determine are acceptable risks never stopped me doing anything. Have they eradicated TB ? nope and your wrong about waterborne disease, it can be transmitted when people move around. The worlds a dangerous place, heck living in Thailand is far more a risk to ones health than back in the UK but an acceptable risk imo, we can agree on that obviously. 

 

I absolutely recognise i care primarily about my personal comfort and needs and my family, everyone does and saying anything else is a lie. A 70 year old is usually retired and dosnt run business or have employees and hopefully have children grown and in work. I do not have the luxury of a pension yet or a sugar daddy, I work, employ others and have responsibilities I have to balance with making a living,  i fully expect to contract the virus at some point. You seem to forget that 90% or more infected get mild to little symptoms, it is a very very small minority that is at high risk. It would make far more sense to protect those at highest risk and let the rest get on with life paying the taxes keeping business running and employees in work. Ring fence and isolate the risk groups, old and infirm etc by all means but the rest need to get back to life asap. Unforeseen casualties are normal and regrettable but thats life.  

 

For every serious case highlighted and paraded on the media there are hundreds of thousands who have little problems and recover fast, no ones making headlines about that though as it dosnt sell the fear and that is just the documented cases, according to the models and estimates there are probably millions of others who wont ever know they have had it...but they will have antibodies and like all the rest of the viruses herd immunity will and is the most effective longterm solution, I do not believe in the vaccine claims as being practical or likely effective, I do believe in our immune systems to adapt and overcome, yes people die and its regrettable but thats a guarantee in life, its only a question of how and when, I do not spend my time worrying about it for myself so no i dont concern myself about the world in general either, if that makes me selfish then so be it, the world does not have time for me nor I in general for it. This is how life really is and I do not pretend otherwise just because the media and propaganda says to now. My life is not yours or any others to command, I simply reject living my life on others terms. 

 

I get you have bought into the hysteria and fear the virus, many have and do whereas I havnt and do not... I fully expect to contract it at some point and will deal with it when I do, at that point I will isolate and almost certainly recover but your wrong about being selfish, on the contrary im being realistic, you cant and imo shouldnt try to protect 100% for 1% at risk, they could put all resources into ring fencing the most at risk, that would make sense to me rather than destroying entire industries and economies.  More will die and have lives destroyed from the measures than the virus in the longrun imo  The faster people get used to living a normal life as possible despite the virus the faster the world gets back on its feet..

 

Btw im not ageist in the slightest, im in my mid 50s and have family and friends in their 70s to 90s, most are pragmatic and accepting this is just another thing that might kill them but getting on with life as best they can despite the madness and panic going on out there. I dont see myself or views as selfish, just realistic and stoic. 

 

I am going to assume your post 70 from the way your talking, I wish you well and long life but I will not live my life on your or anyones elses terms or demands because your scared of something that I am not, that to me is the height of entitled selfishness. 

 

Have a good evening

[BritManToo]

Just now, englishoak said:

Btw im not ageist in the slightest, im in my mid 50s and have family and friends in their 70s to 90s, most are pragmatic and accepting this is just another thing that might kill them but getting on with life as best they can despite the madness and panic going on out there. I dont see myself or views as selfish, just realistic and stoic. 

64 here, had it in February, just a cough and a blocked ear, my much younger Asian family were far worse off with fever lasting 3-10 days. 22 year old daughter didn't display any symptoms.

 

The current restrictions are far more about fear and control than people's health IMHO.

[BritManToo]

9 hours ago, Captain Monday said:

Riding in a car in any country is actually a choice unless one is a child.

Interaction with other people is also a choice.

No need to ever leave your house or touch another person.

Everything you need can be delivered to your home, where you can disinfect at your leisure.

 

If you are afraid to ride in a car, that is no reason to stop me riding in a car.

If you are afraid to go out, that is no reason to stop me going out.

If you have a vaccination, that is no reason to try and force me to have a vaccination.

Edited August 15, 2020 by BritManToo

[steelepulse]

On 8/14/2020 at 8:57 AM, Captain Monday said:

There you have it. Fearless, shameless, rejection of consensus, irrational anti-hygiene animus and complete indifference to the suffering of others.  Add politicization of science and you have why in the US we experience a virus out of control and mass death. In Japan 95 percent of the population follows all government suggestions without coercion by laws and the situation is not perfect but much better in comparison, without total lockdowns. I was there almost 4 months from April.

With stats like this taken directly from the Minnesota department of health, only thing it looks like is if you are in long term care, then you are highly in the front lines of getting it.  Otherwise, you have a .07% ifr.  Certainly nothing to say the sky is falling.

 

The problem allowing the virus into long term care around the world.  Sweden, New York etc.  Even in Minnesota.

 

I can't imagine any other location stats will be that much different than what the state of Minnesota presents.

[geriatrickid]

17 hours ago, Rancid said:

Once upon a time objective thinking was respected, in today's world that has been replaced with just following the media narrative. This despite the media been renowned liars and purveyors of false information. That is not to say alt sites are to be trusted either, some are honest others not.

 

We should be able to think, study information and come to a decision, this is frowned upon as doing so will often lead to coming to an unapproved opinion.

 

With covid there are diverse opinions and from respected people. My reading is that it is a nasty virus similar to a bad flu, as such there is no need for fascist lock downs that destroy peoples livelihoods and take away their freedoms. Regardless we are going to get fascism whether we agree or not, then of course the dodgy vaccine will arrive, sicken the many and profit the few. Dark times indeed, perhaps being a Lemming is easier.

And what if your "reading' is wrong" and the issue instead is your false narrative, a manifestation of your underlying mental state?

My reading is that it is a nasty virus similar to a bad flu, as such there is no need for fascist lock downs that destroy peoples livelihoods and take away their freedoms.

 

It is in no way similar to a nasty flu. None. If you do not understand this, how can you be  taken seriously when the   results show that it is different? Does a flu cause heart damage and put the infected at risk of heart attack and stroke? How is the flu even remotely related to an inflammatory associated disease?

The flu does not leave patients incapacitated for  extended periods of time and  does stop  the delivery of basic health care. Nor does the flu kill the numbers of health care workers that we have seen this year.

Only an ignorant person incapable of understanding the data, or a person with a political agenda or a  mentally ill  person would parrot the nonsensical statement of Donal trump. What's next, that this will go away in the "spring" that it is "under control"? 

 

You say that "we should be able to think, study information and come to a decision, this is frowned upon as doing so will often lead to coming to an unapproved opinion"

 

No one has stopped you from thinking or studying information. The sad reality is that you are not thinking and are unwilling to accept that your position is not sound. You seek out specific articles or statements that support your position. There are people who post references to studies here in TVF who do not understand what they are posting, and who misinterpret the conclusions.  I don't know why they post references to  scientific articles when they are incapable of understanding the data, methodology or conclusions of the article.

 

We are treated to  exaggerated claims of injustice and wrongdoing. There is no  "fascist lock down" as you describe. There never was. In  most countries,  essential services continued. Financial services continued, restaurants operated, albeit in a reduced manner; retail continued although it was online or by appointment. Public transit continued. People were allowed to exercise  and circulate in a responsible manner.  Yes there was a curtailment of some activities, but  this was the most cost effective means available to slow the spread of a costly infection.

 

Please tell us how you would have mitigated the costs of a wide scale infection. You are good at criticizing. Fine. Now tell us how you would have kept society running as large portions fell ill and essential services and supplies were disrupted. Tell us how you would run a hospital without PPE and with much of the hospital contaminated and understaffed.  

[BritManToo]

7 minutes ago, geriatrickid said:

Please tell us how you would have mitigated the costs of a wide scale infection. You are good at criticizing. Fine. Now tell us how you would have kept society running as large portions fell ill and essential services and supplies were disrupted. Tell us how you would run a hospital without PPE and with much of the hospital contaminated and understaffed.  

I would have let the seriously ill die.

No point shutting the world down to protect a few old folks from dying a couple of months early.

And even then they could have protected the old folks at risk by isolating them and testing carers in nursing homes.

Not sure where your 'large portions fell ill' from, most people have no symptoms at all, more have flu like symptoms.

 

If you're frightened, stay at home alone, order all your supplies online, disinfect when they deliver.

Your fear of infection doesn't need to affect my life.

Edited August 15, 2020 by BritManToo

[johnnybangkok]

2 hours ago, englishoak said:

The only thing preventing me from travelling to Thailand is the Thai government nothing else. I have travelled all over the globe to many regions where risks are high and numerous disease is rampant, fear of what I determine are acceptable risks never stopped me doing anything. Have they eradicated TB ? nope and your wrong about waterborne disease, it can be transmitted when people move around. The worlds a dangerous place, heck living in Thailand is far more a risk to ones health than back in the UK but an acceptable risk imo, we can agree on that obviously. 

 

I absolutely recognise i care primarily about my personal comfort and needs and my family, everyone does and saying anything else is a lie. A 70 year old is usually retired and dosnt run business or have employees and hopefully have children grown and in work. I do not have the luxury of a pension yet or a sugar daddy, I work, employ others and have responsibilities I have to balance with making a living,  i fully expect to contract the virus at some point. You seem to forget that 90% or more infected get mild to little symptoms, it is a very very small minority that is at high risk. It would make far more sense to protect those at highest risk and let the rest get on with life paying the taxes keeping business running and employees in work. Ring fence and isolate the risk groups, old and infirm etc by all means but the rest need to get back to life asap. Unforeseen casualties are normal and regrettable but thats life.  

 

For every serious case highlighted and paraded on the media there are hundreds of thousands who have little problems and recover fast, no ones making headlines about that though as it dosnt sell the fear and that is just the documented cases, according to the models and estimates there are probably millions of others who wont ever know they have had it...but they will have antibodies and like all the rest of the viruses herd immunity will and is the most effective longterm solution, I do not believe in the vaccine claims as being practical or likely effective, I do believe in our immune systems to adapt and overcome, yes people die and its regrettable but thats a guarantee in life, its only a question of how and when, I do not spend my time worrying about it for myself so no i dont concern myself about the world in general either, if that makes me selfish then so be it, the world does not have time for me nor I in general for it. This is how life really is and I do not pretend otherwise just because the media and propaganda says to now. My life is not yours or any others to command, I simply reject living my life on others terms. 

 

I get you have bought into the hysteria and fear the virus, many have and do whereas I havnt and do not... I fully expect to contract it at some point and will deal with it when I do, at that point I will isolate and almost certainly recover but your wrong about being selfish, on the contrary im being realistic, you cant and imo shouldnt try to protect 100% for 1% at risk, they could put all resources into ring fencing the most at risk, that would make sense to me rather than destroying entire industries and economies.  More will die and have lives destroyed from the measures than the virus in the longrun imo  The faster people get used to living a normal life as possible despite the virus the faster the world gets back on its feet..

 

Btw im not ageist in the slightest, im in my mid 50s and have family and friends in their 70s to 90s, most are pragmatic and accepting this is just another thing that might kill them but getting on with life as best they can despite the madness and panic going on out there. I dont see myself or views as selfish, just realistic and stoic. 

 

I am going to assume your post 70 from the way your talking, I wish you well and long life but I will not live my life on your or anyones elses terms or demands because your scared of something that I am not, that to me is the height of entitled selfishness. 

 

Have a good evening

I think this post was much better thought out than your first post. This was much more even handed and was far less 'tin foil' than the first. A couple of points though you should consider; 

1. Herd immunity is not likely unless there is a vacine. In most other wide spread diseases (measles, flu etc) the vacine allows for herd immunity. Sweden is trying the herd immunity approach and unfortunately is nowhere near the 60-70% it needs to be able to say herd iummunity has been acheived (I think it's only at 6 or 7%).

2. As I pointed out in one of my earlier posts, without isolating, lockdown, social distancing, face masks etc, it is estimated the worldwide death toll from C19 would be in excess of 7 million. That is not a number to be sneezed at (excuse the pun).

 

However that is all I am going to point out in your post as I pretty much agree with everything else. This pandemic can and should have been handled much, much better than it has. Both S. Korea and Taiwan had the right idea; both acted early and decisively, quickly putting in travel restrictions followed by screenings, identifying, tracing and strict quarantining. They never waited around for a non-existant herd immunity to emerge (which I have already pointed out is only reasonably pluasible once a vacine has been found) and didn't run their economies into the ground as they didn't need to lock down. They isolated their 'most at risk' and just put in place tried and trusted routines learned from when they were combatting SARS, H1N1, MERS and Ebola. Every other country also had the ability to mimic these methods but as in the case of the UK, US and most of Europe, they dithered in the crucial initial weeks and even now are not following guidance (why is wearing a face masks still a debate). They still haven't isolated their most vulnerable and still struggle with basics such as PPE. It's an absolute joke.    

Like yourself, I'm in my early 50's and run a business in Thailand. I employed 50 Thai staff and so far have had to let 10 of them go. With no end to the lockdowns from other countries in sight, I am very fearful of both their's and my future. Thailand has minimal infections and minimal deaths (thanks to some good stuff done early by the Thai government) yet we all have to sit and wait whilst countries that should know better (you know, the supposed 'advanced' Western economies) flounder from one debacle to the next. It's frustrating and super worringing so I hear and sympathise with your thoughts, however I don't blame the media and I don't blame people for 'buying into the hysteria'; that's an unfair accusation brought around from frustration. I do however blame blame Boris and his cronies for a terrible response leading to the second highest per capita death rate and I blame the likes of Trump for ignoring, minimising and politicising this pandemic, the same with Bolsonaro and other idiots off his ilk. If all countries had done the right thing which is exactly your suggestion of 'shouldnt try to protect 100% for 1% at risk, they could put all resources into ring fencing the most at risk, that would make sense to me rather than destroying entire industries and economies.' then none of us would be in this situation. 

So lets point our anger where it is justified and take to task the people who have put us all in this situation through incompetance, negligence and downright lying.

Suprise, surprise, it's the politicians.    

 

Edited August 15, 2020 by johnnybangkok