Majority of Scots support independence from UK - YouGov poll

[Rookiescot]

1 minute ago, CorpusChristie said:

As Scotland is  part on the United Kingdom of England, Great Britain, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales , Shetlands and Mull of Kintyre , the signed  agreement was on behalf of us all 

Right so if we are an integral part of the UK we have a right to a per head share of all assets within the UK. Regardless of the assets location. After all the debt is not located in Scotland is it?

You cant have it both ways.

We either get a share of the assets or we have no debt. Simple as that.

[CorpusChristie]

1 minute ago, Rookiescot said:

Right so if we are an integral part of the UK we have a right to a per head share of all assets within the UK. Regardless of the assets location. After all the debt is not located in Scotland is it?

You cant have it both ways.

We either get a share of the assets or we have no debt. Simple as that.

England Northern Ireland and Wales would then be entitled to a share of all the assets in Scotland

Edinburg Castle being shared four ways , for example

[Rookiescot]

1 minute ago, CorpusChristie said:

England Northern Ireland and Wales would then be entitled to a share of all the assets in Scotland

Edinburg Castle being shared four ways , for example

Yes you could argue that.

Its probably a better solution than your one of only whats in Scotland is able to be claimed by Scotland.

Given the nukes are parked up there.

[CorpusChristie]

4 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Yes you could argue that.

Its probably a better solution than your one of only whats in Scotland is able to be claimed by Scotland.

Given the nukes are parked up there.

You can keep 25 % of the Nukes, the rest you will have to give back  

[Rookiescot]

5 minutes ago, CorpusChristie said:

You can keep 25 % of the Nukes, the rest you will have to give back  

Oh we can send them no problem. They deliver themselves apparently. 

[Phulublub]

7 minutes ago, CorpusChristie said:

You can keep 25 % of the Nukes, the rest you will have to give back  

I have two questions:

 

A few minutes agoyou said that all thre assets in Scotladn (and nothing else) would be Scotland's.  So why would an independent Scotland have to give up ANY of the nukes?

 

But if we are dividing up assets now, why 25%?  Doesn't that hugely over-represent a Scottish per capita entitlement?

 

PH 

[MRToMRT]

7 minutes ago, Phulublub said:

I..........

 

But if we are dividing up assets now, why 25%?  Doesn't that hugely over-represent a Scottish per capita entitlement?

 

 

Thats a very good point.

 

 

 

 

 

[mike787]

I can't wait for Brexit to be finalized...

[IvorBiggun2]

Definition of a Scots person please. Same goes for English, Irish, Welch etc. Are we truly are what are in this day and age? We're all mongrels.

[MRToMRT]

As an engrishman who has had to spend time in the UK recently, I have to admit I was against devolution, but having seen the effects (from the covid scenario) play out on TV with the different administrations making their own rules/statements/broadcasts/etc I think we have already taken the bold step on this road. I think theres only one route now as the covid crisis has shown us the 4 administrations don't work well together on many levels (but mainly politics). That route is full devolution for me, for all 4 nations.

[Rookiescot]

Just now, MRToMRT said:

As an engrishman who has had to spend time in the UK recently, I have to admit I was against devolution, but having seen the effects (from the covid scenario) play out on TV with the different administrations making their own rules/statements/broadcasts/etc I think we have already taken the bold step on this road. I think theres only one route now as the covid crisis has shown us the 4 administrations don't work well together on many levels (but mainly politics). That route is full devolution for me, for all 4 nations.

Devo max was promised during the last Scottish independence referendum but of course was never delivered. That ship has sailed. 

The two ironic things are that had it been delivered we would not be in the position now of a majority of Scots wanting independence.

The other irony is the party most opposed to devo max being delivered was the labour party. A party which now languishes in third place in Scotland with about 15% support.

The reason the devolved administrations did not work well together was because of Johnsons insistence that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland were not consulted or indeed even informed about the UK's strategy on corona. 

[Rookiescot]

10 minutes ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

Definition of a Scots person please. Same goes for English, Irish, Welch etc. Are we truly are what are in this day and age? We're all mongrels.

A Scot is anyone currently living in Scotland regardless of their place of birth. Thats how it was defined in the last referendum.

I do not know how the English, Welsh or Irish would describe their populations.

[Phulublub]

3 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

The reason the devolved administrations did not work well together was because of Johnsons insistence that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland were not consulted or indeed even informed about the UK's strategy on corona. 

The glaring problem with that analysis is that it would require Johnson to actually have a coherant strategy.

 

PH

[Phulublub]

1 minute ago, Rookiescot said:

A Scot is anyone currently living in Scotland regardless of their place of birth. Thats how it was defined in the last referendum.

I do not know how the English, Welsh or Irish would describe their populations.

I would disagree with that.

 

I lived in Scotland, except when work took me away temporarily, from 1978 to 2015.  It is the only place I have ever owned property.  I was in Scotland for both the 1979 and 2014 votes.  None of those things, to me, make me Scots.

 

Sean Connery has not lived in Scotland for about 150 years.  Is he not a Scot? (and if not, then why was he allowed to be a figurehead for the SNP in 2013/4?

 

PH

[Rookiescot]

7 minutes ago, Phulublub said:

I would disagree with that.

 

I lived in Scotland, except when work took me away temporarily, from 1978 to 2015.  It is the only place I have ever owned property.  I was in Scotland for both the 1979 and 2014 votes.  None of those things, to me, make me Scots.

 

Sean Connery has not lived in Scotland for about 150 years.  Is he not a Scot? (and if not, then why was he allowed to be a figurehead for the SNP in 2013/4?

 

PH

It was how it was defined for the referendum. I can think of no better way of describing what a Scot is.

Sir Sean Connery is Scottish by birth but given he was not resident in Scotland at the time of the referendum was not entitled to vote. He was not a figurehead for anyone. He was simply giving his opinion.

Sir Billy Connolly was the same and he advocated voting no. I understand he may have changed his position since.

To all intents and purposes for the period you spent in Scotland then yes. You were a Scot. I genuinely hope you retain fond memories of your stay there.

[herfiehandbag]

2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

But what you are failing to explain is why, inexplicably, this would be an impediment to Scotland whereas it has been done many, many times in the past in other new countries. 

And as you acknowledged just a few posts back, you were not conversant with the preparedness of the SNP in developing a strategy yet you persist in stating that there is no planning, whereas you simply were ignorant of the facts. Do you expect Sturgeon to make an appointment with you personally to explain it all?

 

They have total relevance in the form of equivalence. We, like every country, have idiots who sully our reputation. Your idiots are much more vocal and internationally recognised. My point was not about one idiot's actions nullifying the other's; it was whether you think that the rampant and very visible scourge of racism that seems to have infected every part of England in the most nauseating of ways is causing problems dealing with third party countries in the same way you suggest that the idiot with the saltire and the Go Home banner might do for an independent Scotland.  

I don't buy into your argument that it has been done many many times, the vast majority of newly independent countries have been colonies, geographically and economically separate from the colonising power. They already had independant economies and existing financial infrastructure to varying degrees, in the cases for example of the Dominions, Australia, New Zealand, Canada and India they were financially and economically self sufficient and self governing for years before full independence. Scotland has been in a political and economic union for centuries, and its economic and fiscal system is fully integrated into the union, so it won't be the same. It is not a colony becoming independent, but a country  (potentially) leaving a union of which has long been a full member. So it will need to start many institutions from scratch - including a central bank. A central bank with no money is rather like a chocolate tea pot; so it will need funding prior to start up. I'm not saying that cannot be done, I'm suggesting that it will need planning and preparation.

 

No I don't expect Ms Sturgeon to make an appointment with me, but I can find little evidence of any real planning for the economic structures of Scotland were it to leave the Union. I'm from the West Country, and I'm now an expat anyway, so I don't expect it to bother me (although I retain an interest as I still pay some tax in the UK). I don't want to listen to another round of "we was robbed (again), the conditions have changed..." if the SNP bid this time fails on the question of the economic structure for an independent Scotland. Remember it is not the English who will be consulted ( their response will likely be "away you go, fill your boots, good luck") but your fellow Scots who will have to be persuaded. They weren't last time!

 

As for the second point - anti English sentiment - if you can't see it, or face it so be it. It will, however, if unchecked and unchallenged by your fellow Scots, likely embitter relations between the two countries at a time when you probably need them to be at their most cordial.

Edited August 27, 2020 by herfiehandbag

[Rookiescot]

2 minutes ago, herfiehandbag said:

I don't buy into your argument that it has been done many many times, the vast majority of newly independent countries have been colonies, geographically and economically separate from the colonising power. They already had independant economies and existing financial infrastructure to varying degrees, in the cases for example of the Dominions, Australia, New Zealand, Canada and India they were financially and economically self sufficient and self governing for years before full independence. Scotland has been in a political and economic union for centuries, and its economic and fiscal system is fully integrated into the union, so it won't be the same. It is not a colony becoming independent, but a country  (potentially) leaving a union of which has long been a full member. So it will need to start many institutions from scratch - including a central bank. A central bank with no money is rather like a chocolate tea pot; so it will need funding prior to start up. I'm not saying that cannot be done, I'm suggesting that it will need planning and preparation. No I don't expect Ms Sturgeon to make an appointment with me, but I can find little evidence of any real planning for the economic structures of Scotland were it to leave the Union. I'm from the West Country, and I'm now an expat anyway, so I don't expect it to bother me (although I retain an interest as I still pay some tax in the UK). I don't want to listen to another round of "we was robbed (again), the conditions have changed..." if the SNP bid this time fails on the question of the economic structure for an independent Scotland. Remember it is not the English who will be consulted ( their response will likely be "away you go, fill your boots, good luck") but your fellow Scots who will have to be persuaded. They weren't last time!

 

As for the second point - anti English sentiment - if you can't see it, or face it so be it. It will, however, if unchecked and unchallenged by your fellow Scots, likely embitter relations between the two countries at a time when you probably need them to be at their most cordial.

So Ireland was geographically separate and had its own economy? And a currency? And was self governing?

 

Anti English sentiment exists in the minds of rabid unionists and the uninformed. Thats it. It is only spoken about because it suits the agenda of unionists and in reality does not exist.

 

Scots are already persuaded. Read the headline to this thread. 

[vogie]

So as it stands, if a Scot moves a few miles down the road into England, he is illegible to vote for whether the SNP decides it wants to partition the UK or not. But a foreigner on a 3 months visa working short term in Scotland would be allowed to vote in the unlikely event of yet another referendum.

So basically if you are Scottish and at the time of the referendum and you have moved away short term, you don't have a say in your countrys future, or your childrens future. But a foreigner who has no interest in Scotland but just happens to be working there at the time of a referendum has a say in Scotlands future. Now call me a big sceptic if you will, but does anyone wonder why the SNP are constantly thought of barmpots.

[RuamRudy]

11 minutes ago, herfiehandbag said:

I don't buy into your argument that it has been done many many times, the vast majority of newly independent countries have been colonies, geographically and economically separate from the colonising power. They already had independant economies and existing financial infrastructure to varying degrees, in the cases for example of the Dominions, Australia, New Zealand, Canada and India they were financially and economically self sufficient and self governing for years before full independence. Scotland has been in a political and economic union for centuries, and its economic and fiscal system is fully integrated into the union, so it won't be the same. It is not a colony becoming independent, but a country  (potentially) leaving a union of which has long been a full member. So it will need to start many institutions from scratch - including a central bank. A central bank with no money is rather like a chocolate tea pot; so it will need funding prior to start up. I'm not saying that cannot be done, I'm suggesting that it will need planning and preparation.

 

No I don't expect Ms Sturgeon to make an appointment with me, but I can find little evidence of any real planning for the economic structures of Scotland were it to leave the Union. I'm from the West Country, and I'm now an expat anyway, so I don't expect it to bother me (although I retain an interest as I still pay some tax in the UK). I don't want to listen to another round of "we was robbed (again), the conditions have changed..." if the SNP bid this time fails on the question of the economic structure for an independent Scotland. Remember it is not the English who will be consulted ( their response will likely be "away you go, fill your boots, good luck") but your fellow Scots who will have to be persuaded. They weren't last time!

 

As for the second point - anti English sentiment - if you can't see it, or face it so be it. It will, however, if unchecked and unchallenged by your fellow Scots, likely embitter relations between the two countries at a time when you probably need them to be at their most cordial.

Other than a central bank, what other institutions will need to be started from scratch? I genuinely cannot think of any examples. 

 

Anti English sentiment is a useful trope to use when bereft of anything of substance. The trope has been around longer than Trump's prominence but he uses very similar premises - repeat the lie often and hope it gains traction. 

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, vogie said:

So as it stands, if a Scot moves a few miles down the road into England, he is illegible to vote for whether the SNP decides it wants to partition the UK or not. But a foreigner on a 3 months visa working short term in Scotland would be allowed to vote in the unlikely event of yet another referendum.

So basically if you are Scottish and at the time of the referendum and you have moved away short term, you don't have a say in your countrys future, or your childrens future. But a foreigner who has no interest in Scotland but just happens to be working there at the time of a referendum has a say in Scotlands future. Now call me a big sceptic if you will, but does anyone wonder why the SNP are constantly thought of barmpots.

Is that how the electoral register works? 3 months' temporary residency affords you a vote? And 3 months away sees you wiped from the electoral roll? And why would someone who, as you said 'has no interest in Scotland' even bother to register to vote? Might you possibly be tilting at windmills, and not even the correct windmills?

 

It the SNP are consistently though of as 'barmpots' whatever they may be, why do they consistently walk all over the nasty party at election time?

[Rookiescot]

2 minutes ago, vogie said:

So as it stands, if a Scot moves a few miles down the road into England, he is illegible to vote for whether the SNP decides it wants to partition the UK or not. But a foreigner on a 3 months visa working short term in Scotland would be allowed to vote in the unlikely event of yet another referendum.

So basically if you are Scottish and at the time of the referendum and you have moved away short term, you don't have a say in your countrys future, or your childrens future. But a foreigner who has no interest in Scotland but just happens to be working there at the time of a referendum has a say in Scotlands future. Now call me a big sceptic if you will, but does anyone wonder why the SNP are constantly thought of barmpots.

Yes that is correct. People resident in Scotland at the time of the referendum are eligible to vote. You have to define it somehow. Now for the half dozen people who would find themselves in the position you describe then yes it is unfortunate.

But consider this. Had the last referendum only been open to people born in Scotland and still resident there then YES would have won.

Are you sure you want to start moving the goalposts now?

The SNP have been running Scotlands parliament for a long time now. They keep getting voted back in. They got the vast majority of seats in Scotland at the last general election. Opinion polls show a majority support for independence and the SNP winning a majority in the next Scottish parliament elections.

Who are these people who think the SNP are bampots? Your friends over at the echo chamber of the Hootsmon and Majority Scotland?

[vogie]

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

Is that how the electoral register works? 3 months' temporary residency affords you a vote? And 3 months away sees you wiped from the electoral roll? And why would someone who, as you said 'has no interest in Scotland' even bother to register to vote? Might you possibly be tilting at windmills, and not even the correct windmills?

 

It the SNP are consistently though of as 'barmpots' whatever they may be, why do they consistently walk all over the nasty party at election time?

I am stating facts, what is false in what I have stated? I am pointing out how rediculous the present system of deciding a countrys future, but I think Michael Gove may have something to say about how the SNP are constantly moving the goal posts, it's a lot like Fleetwood Town playing Manchester United with 18 footballers and 3 goalkeepers, it stinks.

[Rookiescot]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

I am stating facts, what is false in what I have stated? I am pointing out how rediculous the present system of deciding a countrys future, but I think Michael Gove may have something to say about how the SNP are constantly moving the goal posts, it's a lot like Fleetwood Town playing Manchester United with 18 footballers and 3 goalkeepers, it stinks.

Its you who wants to move the goalposts. Not the SNP.

Good grief.

[3NUMBAS]

the poll was done on a saturday night when the voters had been on the lash so the result is normal

[3NUMBAS]

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1327717/snp-gers-report-Scottish-independence-uk-nicola-sturgeon-economy-latest

 

SNP humiliation as Sturgeon ABANDONS major independence project - report obliterates hopes

THE SNP has ditched plans to publish an "annual economic case for independence", with pro-union campaigners claiming the UK is "more valuable than ever" to Scotland.

 

The plans were scrapped after the annual report on Scotland's finances found its national deficit has grown again.

The Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland (GERS) publication highlights how much the country raises in taxes compared to how much it spends on public services.

The report showed report showed Scotland’s national deficit was 8.6 percent of GDP in 2019/20, as public spending north of the border outstripped tax revenues by £15.1billion.

 

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, 3NUMBAS said:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1327717/snp-gers-report-Scottish-independence-uk-nicola-sturgeon-economy-latest

 

SNP humiliation as Sturgeon ABANDONS major independence project - report obliterates hopes

THE SNP has ditched plans to publish an "annual economic case for independence", with pro-union campaigners claiming the UK is "more valuable than ever" to Scotland.

 

The plans were scrapped after the annual report on Scotland's finances found its national deficit has grown again.

The Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland (GERS) publication highlights how much the country raises in taxes compared to how much it spends on public services.

The report showed report showed Scotland’s national deficit was 8.6 percent of GDP in 2019/20, as public spending north of the border outstripped tax revenues by £15.1billion.

 

Aye OK.

Nothing for you Brexiteers to worry about then is there?

The express has definitely got its finger on the pulse of Scottish opinion and the thoughts of Scotlands First Minister.

You do understand that only die hard unionists still believe the GERS figures?

[Phulublub]

17 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

It was how it was defined for the referendum. I can think of no better way of describing what a Scot is.

Sir Sean Connery is Scottish by birth but given he was not resident in Scotland at the time of the referendum was not entitled to vote. He was not a figurehead for anyone. He was simply giving his opinion.

Sir Billy Connolly was the same and he advocated voting no. I understand he may have changed his position since.

To all intents and purposes for the period you spent in Scotland then yes. You were a Scot. I genuinely hope you retain fond memories of your stay there.

I know Salmond said as much, but not sure it was official policy in any form.  But that aside, I would offer the following:

 

Born in Scotland -Scottish by birth

Born of Scottish parents - Scottish by parentage

 

Thereafter it can get a bit woolly and perhaps some personal preference and flexibility should be allowed:

 

Born of one Scotish parent - Still Scottish by parentage

Born of Scottish grandparents - still Scottish, but how far back does one go..?

Permanently residing in Scotland - Scottish by residence, perhaps

 

I consider myself ot to be, or have been a Scot at any time.    Are either you or I, by virtue of living in Thailand, Thai?  That is most certainly not how I identify.

 

Of course, "nationality" has little to do with which Country (or Countries) one is a citizen of and entitlement to take part in elections, pay taxes, receive benefits and probably a heap of others things of real world significance.

 

PH

 

 

[rott]

Another SNP politician has resigned, how many is this now 12 or 13?

And the media remains silent. As do Sturgeon and Salmond.

 

What is going on, is there a new party in the offing? 

 

Sorry not sure if it is resigned or does not wish to stand for re-election. 

[vogie]

13 minutes ago, rott said:

Another SNP politician has resigned, how many is this now 12 or 13?

And the media remains silent. As do Sturgeon and Salmond.

 

What is going on, is there a new party in the offing? 

 

Sorry not sure if it is resigned or does not wish to stand for re-election. 

The wheels are coming off Rodney, I said the bl**dy wheels are coming off. ????????????????

[Phulublub]

4 minutes ago, vogie said:

The wheels are coming off Rodney, I said the bl**dy wheels are coming off. ????????????????

How so?  Some who serve as Politicians are actually honorable people.  Some are not.  I have no background knowledge of any recent SNP retirees, but a quick search shows a couple.  Is this the one who is leaving:

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-53941378

 

No shock horror story there I can see. 

 

Or this one:

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-53896876

 

Or there. 

 

Now, if either had taken a test drive for 60 miles to see if their eyesight was good enough for them to drive, or presided over a complete shambles of ducation then resigning might have had some background other than time to retire....

 

PH