29 minutes ago, Nigel Garvie said:

Well that is an encouraging assessment of the possibilities, which I didn't understand as well before, thank you.  Business is howling out for some sort of adult deal in which trade is still possible without horrendous paperwork, extra taxes, market disadvantage, days of delay in Dover etc etc. These guys are not fools - although no deal suits some personally in the media and the financial industry, virtually no actual manufacturers are in favour (Where is Dyson now?). 

 

Unfortunately you would search long and hard in the Tory benches - the front one anyway - to find an adult. 

 

The US/UK  further negotiations are coming soon, but Trump has lost it completely. Boris probably is happy to sell UK plc  down the water for longer in power, but Nov 3rd is not far away. Trade deals just don't get completed in that time scale, although acts of surrender maybe. Anyway a 5 minute study of statistics will tell anyone, that even a huge increase in US  trade, will not remotely replace a modest decrease in EU trade. 

Personally, I wouldn't bet BoJo wants a deal. If he just wants a more interesting job and the opportunity to leave a trace on history, it's not in his interest to strike a deal with the EU. He may fail but "Après moi le déluge". This is a purely subjective opinion.

Then it also depends on the pressure his sponsors exert on him, which may not be in favour of no deal.

Edited September 6, 20205 yr by candide

9 hours ago, 3NUMBAS said:

EU negotiatres are thick as 2 planks so its WTO rules

Yes and we've got all the Mensa members on our side .....

9 hours ago, 3NUMBAS said:

 

they think bojo is as silly as T may and uk will roll over on fishing and state aid

From an economic point of view, fishing rights are an irrelevance. It is purely political on both sides: Johnson doesn't want to upset the UK fishing communities who voted for Brexit. Macron and Sanchez can't upset the fishing communities in France and Spain without attracting political damage. Merkel needs to knock a few heads together.

 

The EU cannot stop the UK setting its own rules on state aid. However, the UK may not then gain unfettered access to the single market. Simple as. Why is this so difficult to understand?

 

10 hours ago, 3NUMBAS said:

To my mind, the core reason we voted to leave the EU was our rejection of the EU as a political organisation.

Agreed

10 hours ago, 3NUMBAS said:

 

We joined a trading organisation in 1973, and by leaving with a basic trade deal, we would be returning to that acceptable situation. But if we are forced to accept some of the political aspects of the EU, the very aspects that were rejected at the referendum, Brexit becomes meaningless.

I agree with your premise and conclusion but not your argument. The 'European project' has evolved and successive UK governments - rightly or wrongly - signed up to the changes. You cannot expect the EU to rewind just because 52% of the UK population who could be bothered to vote want it to.

10 hours ago, 3NUMBAS said:

We can't accept fishing rights, or EU standards, or European Court jurisdiction, and Brussels knows this. They have picked these impossible issues precisely because they know we can't compromise on them, and that makes no-deal inevitable. And it is no-deal that they want.

They are not 'impossible issues'. In the big scheme of things, fishing rights are an irrelevance on both sides.

 

Regarding standards. Post-transition I imagine that you will expect any imports into the UK (from wherever) to meet UK standards? Why shouldn't the EU expect the same re imports into the single market? 

 

ECJ jurisdiction: Imports into the UK decided upon by the UK Supreme court. Imports into the EU by the ECJ. Disputes settled by the WTO. Simple.

10 hours ago, 3NUMBAS said:

 

They want Brexit to be as messy and damaging as possible, even to their own members, because they know anything other than a disastrous Brexit will encourage other member states to follow the UK out of the EU, and that will be the end of the project.

There is little evidence to suggest that the EU will impode. I've asked it before and I'll ask it again: Why are Brexiters so fixated on the demise of the EU? You are forever telling EUphiles to get over the referendum result. Fair enough then why don't you get over this desire to see the EU collapse?

Why even do the effort to go sit down on table ....????

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/sep/06/five-weeks-clinch-brexit-deal-uk-move-boris-johnson-to-say

 

Brexit: Johnson to override EU withdrawal agreement

Move threatens to collapse talks that PM has said must be completed within weeks

 

Jessica Elgot, Lisa O'Carroll and Jennifer Rankin

Sun 6 Sep 2020 22.30 BST

 

Boris Johnson is drawing up legislation that will override the Brexit withdrawal agreement on Northern Ireland, a move that threatens the collapse of crunch talks which the prime minister has said must be completed within five weeks.

 

Johnson will put an ultimatum to negotiators this week, saying the UK and Europe must agree a post-Brexit trade deal by 15 October or Britain will walk away for good.

 

26 minutes ago, david555 said:

Boris Johnson is drawing up legislation that will override the Brexit withdrawal agreement on Northern Ireland, a move that threatens the collapse of crunch talks which the prime minister has said must be completed within five weeks.

The talks have already collapsed, they are purely going through the motions now. Barnier has been totally intransigent and following the great EU idealogy of making one superstate, not for one minute has he ever thought of european businesses, he has failed miserably and the EU will pay the price for putting someone like Barnier, a man who couldn't negotiate his way out of a brown paper bag. Enough of this charade, WTO, the EU has lost the lifeline the UK had given them.

15 minutes ago, vogie said:

The talks have already collapsed, they are purely going through the motions now. Barnier has been totally intransigent and following the great EU idealogy of making one superstate, not for one minute has he ever thought of european businesses, he has failed miserably and the EU will pay the price for putting someone like Barnier, a man who couldn't negotiate his way out of a brown paper bag. Enough of this charade, WTO, the EU has lost the lifeline the UK had given them.

Thanks for the lifeline ...as you call it ....i would like Michel just pull the plug out ....????

It becomes ridicolous to go on .....

 

Lesson is not to even try to follow a leaving camp's thinking...

Boris time by his conservatives is "borrowed time as Pm " now , it is all is Pm. May fault ......

pathetic blundering Boris...

 

Better push thr activating button for the WTO handling Barnier ,as almost all is prepared ...test drive it please ???? Give them what they voted for ...

 

 

Edited September 7, 20205 yr by david555

6 hours ago, vogie said:

The talks have already collapsed, they are purely going through the motions now. Barnier has been totally intransigent and following the great EU idealogy of making one superstate, not for one minute has he ever thought of european businesses, he has failed miserably and the EU will pay the price for putting someone like Barnier, a man who couldn't negotiate his way out of a brown paper bag. Enough of this charade, WTO, the EU has lost the lifeline the UK had given them.

If only the EU had someone like David Davis to lead the negotiations. Things would have been done and dusted by now .... 

 

European business is supportive of Barnier's approach. For example, the head of the German equivalent of the CBI has stated that an EU-UK trade deal is highly desirable, but not at the expense of losing integrity in the single market. (I gave the source in a previous post some time ago).