Relatives back in the UK have been stocking up on essential reading as No Deal looms.

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

Quotas are not rights. This seems to be an ongoing point of confusion.

Agree. In case of no agreement, there will be two different issues:

- the fishing rights inside the current UK quota. They have been sold according to UK property rights law and should not be changed, whoever is the owner, unless by paying a fair compensation. Same as when you own a property: the State can seize it, but needs to pay.

- the current foreign quotas that are actually caught inside the UK zone. From next year, UK will be able to manage it in any way it wants. UK will also have the right to increase or reduce quotas in its zone.

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

Quotas are not rights. This seems to be an ongoing point of confusion.

 

48 minutes ago, candide said:

Agree. In case of no agreement, there will be two different issues:

- the fishing rights inside the current UK quota. They have been sold according to UK property rights law and should not be changed, whoever is the owner, unless by paying a fair compensation. Same as when you own a property: the State can seize it, but needs to pay.

- the current foreign quotas that are actually caught inside the UK zone. From next year, UK will be able to manage it in any way it wants. UK will also have the right to increase or reduce quotas in its zone.

So, to summarise:

 

England and Wales have lost control over 55% of their fishing rights, since they sold them.

The only way to harass EU fishermen, would be to equally harass their own fishermen, by reducing the quota for all fishermen, including those who overwhelmingly voted for brexit.

 

The other 45% is open for negociations, for give and take, unless there is No Deal.

 

Maybe the English and Welsh fishermen who voted for Brexit were too busy reading stuff about the NHS on red busses, to realise all this.

 

 

UK companies fear food shortages.

https://www.businessinsider.com/brexit-food-companies-warn-boris-johnson-has-missed-labelling-deadline-2020-9

1 hour ago, oldhippy said:

 

So, to summarise:

 

England and Wales have lost control over 55% of their fishing rights, since they sold them.

The only way to harass EU fishermen, would be to equally harass their own fishermen, by reducing the quota for all fishermen, including those who overwhelmingly voted for brexit.

 

The other 45% is open for negociations, for give and take, unless there is No Deal.

 

Maybe the English and Welsh fishermen who voted for Brexit were too busy reading stuff about the NHS on red busses, to realise all this.

 

 

It's not what I understand. I am not 100 % sure because I never found any text explaining it clearly.

My understanding is the following (it's probably a bit more complex).

The EU defines a quota for each species. Then each country gets a quota for these species, mainly according to historical data.

Then each country is free to manage fishing rights in the way it wants, according to its own laws. UK has chosen to allow the traditional owners of fishing rights to sell them to other companies, British or foreign. So now foreign companies own 55% of England and Wales fishing rights. That's only for the UK national quota. That's not likely to change after Brexit.

 

However, as fishes often migrate and don't respect borders, and also because of historical traditions, a national quota can be caught in another country's zone. For example, part of the quota allocated to France is caught in the British zone. That's what is at stake after Brexit: all what is fished in the British zone, but is currently not part of the UK quota.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/sep/04/brussels-rules-out-summit-intervention-in-troubled-brexit-talks

 

Brussels rules out summit intervention in troubled Brexit talks

Meeting of EU leaders this month will instead focus on post-Covid recovery and China relations

 

Daniel Boffey in Brussels

Fri 4 Sep 2020 17.44 BST

 

Boris Johnson’s hopes of a Brexit deal have been dealt a fresh blow as Brussels ruled out EU leaders intervening in the troubled negotiations at a summit this month.

 

According to EU diplomats, both the EU’s chief negotiator, Michel Barnier, and Downing Street have lobbied for 27 heads of state and government to seize control of the talks given the current impasse.

 

Edited September 4, 20205 yr by david555

9 hours ago, bannork said:

Now, now; that's just mean. We are all entitled to change our mind.... Look how many Johnson has done so over the past 9 months!

 

the EU sphincters are twitching at last

 

Exclusive: Michel Barnier to be sidelined by EU leaders in bid to break Brexit deadlock

James Crisp

,

The Telegraph•4 September 2020

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/exclusive-michel-barnier-sidelined-eu-192415162.html

 

European Union chief Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier is set to be sidelined by EU leaders in a bid to get a breakthrough in the negotiations about a trade treaty with the UK.

Representatives of the bloc’s 27 member states expect Ursula von der Leyen, the president of the European Commission, to pave the way for heads of state and government to intervene in the deadlocked talks in a September 16 flagship speech.

EU leaders are hoping that by stepping in to get the talks moving, it will help bridge the deep divides between the two sides, allowing Mr Barnier and his UK opposite number Lord Frost to agree the details.

 

Edited September 5, 20205 yr by Scott
Edited for Fair Use Policy

On 9/3/2020 at 2:11 PM, oldhippy said:

Fishing rights were SOLD - long after UK's entry.

It was a commercial transaction.

Thanks, a very interesting read and a huge conundrum

The UK's only real option (from what i can see) is to buy it back at such a huge cost they will not be prepared to do it

However it's not going to help the French fishermen as they are fishing under the EU fisheries policy set by the EU

The Quota's are owned by specific foreign companies which would obviously, now, be set by the UK. None of which is actually going to help the British fishermen.

 

4 hours ago, 3NUMBAS said:

 

the EU sphincters are twitching at last

 

Exclusive: Michel Barnier to be sidelined by EU leaders in bid to break Brexit deadlock

James Crisp

,

The Telegraph•4 September 2020

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/exclusive-michel-barnier-sidelined-eu-192415162.html

 

European Union chief Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier is set to be sidelined by EU leaders in a bid to get a breakthrough in the negotiations about a trade treaty with the UK.

Representatives of the bloc’s 27 member states expect Ursula von der Leyen, the president of the European Commission, to pave the way for heads of state and government to intervene in the deadlocked talks in a September 16 flagship speech.

EU leaders are hoping that by stepping in to get the talks moving, it will help bridge the deep divides between the two sides, allowing Mr Barnier and his UK opposite number Lord Frost to agree the details.

 

Alternative headline: EU leaders instruct Barnier.

 

Another breaking exclusive: Johnson sidelines (instructs) Frost.

On 9/3/2020 at 2:50 PM, bannork said:

Where is his oven ready deal?

I don't know how many more times this has to be explained. The 'oven ready deal' slogan referred to the Withdrawal Agreement. 

7 hours ago, RayC said:

Now, now; that's just mean. We are all entitled to change our mind.... Look how many Johnson has done so over the past 9 months!

It must take him 5 hours for a 5 minute journey with all those U turns. 

6 minutes ago, Kadilo said:

It must take him 5 hours for a 5 minute journey with all those U turns. 

U turn, what U turn ???

Boris always goes straight at his goal: Me Me Me.

 

7 minutes ago, Kadilo said:

It must take him 5 hours for a 5 minute journey with all those U turns. 

I never understand all the fuss about u-turns. If something isn't working, change it. Better to do that than be stubborn, just to save face.  

 

'U-turns' are particularly important during a pandemic, where we're learning new things about the virus every day. 

1 minute ago, CG1 Blue said:

I never understand all the fuss about u-turns. If something isn't working, change it. Better to do that than be stubborn, just to save face.  

 

'U-turns' are particularly important during a pandemic, where we're learning new things about the virus every day. 

I guess it may be more encouraging if they got it right first time but I get your point re a pandemic. 

7 hours ago, RayC said:

Now, now; that's just mean. We are all entitled to change our mind.... Look how many Johnson has done so over the past 9 months!

Oeps - I apologise fo not seeing  the sarcasm in your post.

But really, some posters think like that.

 

3 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

Oeps - I apologise fo not seeing  the sarcasm in your post.

But really, some posters think like that.

 

5555555 I can't stop laughing reading a post that was written while I was typing 55555555

 

7 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

I never understand all the fuss about u-turns. If something isn't working, change it. Better to do that than be stubborn, just to save face.  

 

'U-turns' are particularly important during a pandemic, where we're learning new things about the virus every day. 

I imagine that all countries have made u-turns and, as you say, some are understandable. However, it's the sheer number of u-turns which suggests incompetence, and also the way that things have been presented by the UK government that grates with me.

 

For starters it wasn't until his own brush with death that Johnson started taking things seriously. Prior to that he made light of the crisis. (He said that he would continue to shake hands with everyone).  Also when questioned why the UK's response to the pandemic was different to the vast majority of Europe, Johnson replied that we were 

following THE science; the inference being that other countries were making it up as they went along, but that we knew what we were doing. Then there was the app. Not just any old app but 'a world beating' app. Whatever happened to that?

 

Someone remarked that the Covid crisis and Brexit could be Johnson's Churchill moments. I took that to mean that Churchill the great WWW2 leader. Unfortunately, Johnson seems to be more like the Gallipoli version of Churchill. The sooner he is replaced, the better.

 

(As i said already before...his time is ticking.....no confidence in his leadership by his own is growing...).????

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/sep/05/desperate-boris-johnson-to-step-up-personal-attacks-on-keir-starmer

 

Desperate Boris Johnson to step up personal attacks on Keir Starmer

Prime minister said to be ‘furious’ after being asked in the House of Commons to withdraw comments

about the Labour leader

 

Toby Helm Political editor

Sat 5 Sep 2020 19.50 BST

Last modified on Sat 5 Sep 2020 21.55 BST

 

An increasingly desperate Boris Johnson has ordered his staff to step up personal attacks on the Labour leader Keir Starmer and his record as a lawyer, as confidence in the prime minister’s leadership collapses among Tory party members.

Edited September 6, 20205 yr by david555

6 minutes ago, transam said:

The Guardian............????

But Boris be asked by the speaker of H.O.C. in case to witdraw his comments on the leader of the opposition.....which made blundering Boris mad .......????

 

Not a Guardian invention ????...emberrasing aint'it..?

Edited September 6, 20205 yr by david555

Troll posts reported and removed along with replies.   Continued discussion of sources is off-topic and can earn suspensions.

 

( Important message from the Prime minister at 6 September 2020 • 6:00am and this  from the Thelegraph ....(as i dont discriminate on the news items ....let's hope he is sincere about this ???? ) and so the needed measures can be taken to arrange the brexit chaos in U.K.

 

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/09/06/brexit-talks-will-days-unless-eu-realises-britain-serious-no/

Brexit talks 'will be over in days unless the EU realises Britain is serious about no-deal' 
Eighth round of negotiations begins on Tuesday, with progress crucial if the two sides are to reach an agreement 

By Camilla Tominey, Associate Editor and Edward Malnick, 
Sunday Political Editor  6 September 2020 • 6:00am 

 

 

The Brexit negotiations will be over in days unless the EU realises Britain is serious about no-deal, government sources have warned.The eighth round of talks with Brussels begin on Tuesday, with progress crucial if the two sides are to finally reach an agreement.

 

 

It comes as the Telegraph reported on Saturday that the EU’s chief negotiator Michel Barnier is to be sidelined in a bid to break the deadlock.But as the deadline on the discussions fast approaches, No 10 insiders say there will be no deal unless the bloc shows “more realism” on the “scale of the change that results from our departure”.

 

They have accused the EU of blindly “following a self-imposed doctrine of parallelism” without realising that what they are asking for is “completely at odds with what the British people voted for, twice”. They also claim the European Commission, led by Ursula von der Leyen, has been stalling progress by refusing the UK’s offer of allowing them to share a consolidated text with the 27 remaining member states. 

 

much more...
 

Edited September 6, 20205 yr by david555

3 hours ago, david555 said:

Snip

Brexit talks 'will be over in days unless the EU realises Britain is serious about no-deal' 
Eighth round of negotiations begins on Tuesday, with progress crucial if the two sides are to reach an agreement 

 

 

 

It comes as the Telegraph reported on Saturday that the EU’s chief negotiator Michel Barnier is to be sidelined in a bid to break the deadlock.But as the deadline on the discussions fast approaches, No 10 insiders say there will be no deal unless the bloc shows “more realism” on the “scale of the change that results from our departure”.

 

They have accused the EU of blindly “following a self-imposed doctrine of parallelism” without realising that what they are asking for is “completely at odds with what the British people voted for, twice”. They also claim the European Commission, led by Ursula von der Leyen, has been stalling progress by refusing the UK’s offer of allowing them to share a consolidated text with the 27 remaining member states. 

 

much more...
 

Oh dear the Torygraph once more.

 

Are the EU officials so stupid that they don't take the UK's no deal threat seriously, hard to imagine really. Probably the "Newspaper" projecting their own stupidity on others, few can be THAT stupid.

 

“completely at odds with what the British people voted for,"  Here we get the totally bananas bit in which the pompously called "British people" ........actually just some of them, have some sort of right to insist that negotiators for HMG adhere to their demands, a expressed by that excuse for a newspaper. How do they find journalists bad enough to write this bs. 

 

Oh hold on............... they used to employ Johnson. 

EU negotiatres are thick as 2 planks so its WTO rules

 

they think bojo is as silly as T may and uk will roll over on fishing and state aid

To my mind, the core reason we voted to leave the EU was our rejection of the EU as a political organisation. We joined a trading organisation in 1973, and by leaving with a basic trade deal, we would be returning to that acceptable situation. But if we are forced to accept some of the political aspects of the EU, the very aspects that were rejected at the referendum, Brexit becomes meaningless. We can't accept fishing rights, or EU standards, or European Court jurisdiction, and Brussels knows this. They have picked these impossible issues precisely because they know we can't compromise on them, and that makes no-deal inevitable. And it is no-deal that they want. They want Brexit to be as messy and damaging as possible, even to their own members, because they know anything other than a disastrous Brexit will encourage other member states to follow the UK out of the EU, and that will be the end of the project.

43 minutes ago, Nigel Garvie said:

Oh dear the Torygraph once more.

 

Are the EU officials so stupid that they don't take the UK's no deal threat seriously, hard to imagine really. Probably the "Newspaper" projecting their own stupidity on others, few can be THAT stupid.

 

“completely at odds with what the British people voted for,"  Here we get the totally bananas bit in which the pompously called "British people" ........actually just some of them, have some sort of right to insist that negotiators for HMG adhere to their demands, a expressed by that excuse for a newspaper. How do they find journalists bad enough to write this bs. 

 

Oh hold on............... they used to employ Johnson. 

It is not only on Thorygraph  …., also on SkyNews with several people  interviewed , proclaiming their stance ….which I think shall be the shortest few days become in talks...

But here is another interesting item , ???? as I already saw in quit different news …. : as it was because that remark on the leader of the oppositions , the Speaker of the house reuested him to witdraw that remark , hence this made Boris mad  ….( the remark is in the last part of post )

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/sep/06/johnson-at-bay-starmer-on-the-rise-and-sunak-waiting-in-the-wings

 

Toby Helm Political editor

Sun 6 Sep 2020 06.52 BST 

Johnson at bay, Starmer on the rise … and Sunak waiting in the wings 

As the prime minister appears more out of his depth, his party looks to the far more competent and popular chancellor

 

 

As Tory MPs headed into the Covid-secure Commons for prime minister’s questions on Wednesday, all they wanted was reassurance after some very worrying weeks.Over the summer break, Boris Johnson’s administration had performed U-turn after U-turn in a chaotic period of serial blundering that had culminated in arguably the worst mess of all – the exams fiasco.

Out in their constituencies, MPs had struggled to defend what had been going on to their bemused and angry local electorates. Labour had drawn level with the Tories in a poll last weekend for the Observer, having been 26 points behind Johnson’s party in March. “Let’s hope he can cheer us all up today,” said one Conservative.

It was not to be. In fact, Johnson’s performance inspired only more gloom. Under predictable fire from Keir Starmer, the Labour leader, over the A-levels and GCSEs disasters, the prime minister seemed ill-prepared and at sea, thrashing around for defensive lines and veering wildly off the subject as he did so.

 

At one point, Johnson seemed to suggest that the man holding him to account for his ministers’ mishandling of exams was an IRA sympathiser on the grounds that Starmer had served under Jeremy Corbyn. MPs on both sides of the chamber sat in disbelief.

 

much more ...

 

Edited September 6, 20205 yr by david555

46 minutes ago, 3NUMBAS said:

To my mind, the core reason we voted to leave the EU was our rejection of the EU as a political organisation. We joined a trading organisation in 1973, and by leaving with a basic trade deal, we would be returning to that acceptable situation. But if we are forced to accept some of the political aspects of the EU, the very aspects that were rejected at the referendum, Brexit becomes meaningless. We can't accept fishing rights, or EU standards, or European Court jurisdiction, and Brussels knows this. They have picked these impossible issues precisely because they know we can't compromise on them, and that makes no-deal inevitable. And it is no-deal that they want. They want Brexit to be as messy and damaging as possible, even to their own members, because they know anything other than a disastrous Brexit will encourage other member states to follow the UK out of the EU, and that will be the end of the project.

It seems your Union is more cracking now …..because your big neglected backyarder don't liked that brexit  at all and did not voted for that when independence referendum was done ….

Edited September 6, 20205 yr by david555

2 hours ago, 3NUMBAS said:

To my mind, the core reason we voted to leave the EU was our rejection of the EU as a political organisation. We joined a trading organisation in 1973, and by leaving with a basic trade deal, we would be returning to that acceptable situation. But if we are forced to accept some of the political aspects of the EU, the very aspects that were rejected at the referendum, Brexit becomes meaningless. We can't accept fishing rights, or EU standards, or European Court jurisdiction, and Brussels knows this. They have picked these impossible issues precisely because they know we can't compromise on them, and that makes no-deal inevitable. And it is no-deal that they want. They want Brexit to be as messy and damaging as possible, even to their own members, because they know anything other than a disastrous Brexit will encourage other member states to follow the UK out of the EU, and that will be the end of the project.

There isn't actually much reason for not striking a deal, apart from posturing.

Standards

- most of them derive from international treaties and commitment made above the EU and UK level (I.e. the Basel agreement, etc...). There is not much reason why UK and EU would need to diverge significantly.

- UK firms doing business directly or indirectly with the EU would have to apply them, anyway

ECJ

- a compromise could be found, I.e. ECJ only for common market issues, and not other issues

Fishing rights:

- it's just a money issue, I.e. fixing a price and and reducing UK market access fees accordingly.

 

Then there US the political play, posturing, etc... which may lead to a failure.

2 hours ago, candide said:

There isn't actually much reason for not striking a deal, apart from posturing.

Standards

- most of them derive from international treaties and commitment made above the EU and UK level (I.e. the Basel agreement, etc...). There is not much reason why UK and EU would need to diverge significantly.

- UK firms doing business directly or indirectly with the EU would have to apply them, anyway

ECJ

- a compromise could be found, I.e. ECJ only for common market issues, and not other issues

Fishing rights:

- it's just a money issue, I.e. fixing a price and and reducing UK market access fees accordingly.

 

Then there US the political play, posturing, etc... which may lead to a failure.

Well that is an encouraging assessment of the possibilities, which I didn't understand as well before, thank you.  Business is howling out for some sort of adult deal in which trade is still possible without horrendous paperwork, extra taxes, market disadvantage, days of delay in Dover etc etc. These guys are not fools - although no deal suits some personally in the media and the financial industry, virtually no actual manufacturers are in favour (Where is Dyson now?). 

 

Unfortunately you would search long and hard in the Tory benches - the front one anyway - to find an adult. 

 

The US/UK  further negotiations are coming soon, but Trump has lost it completely. Boris probably is happy to sell UK plc  down the water for longer in power, but Nov 3rd is not far away. Trade deals just don't get completed in that time scale, although acts of surrender maybe. Anyway a 5 minute study of statistics will tell anyone, that even a huge increase in US  trade, will not remotely replace a modest decrease in EU trade.