UK minister surprised by Scottish independence referendum move

[robblok]

Lets hope the poor Scots can get a vote and finally get free of the British rule. To have their own government make their own decisions. Their decision is to remain in Eu.

 

Strange that Brexiteers do want a brexit but don't accept the Scots now want to leave. Seems highly hypocritic.  Then again nothing surprises me of Brexiteers. 

 

 

[nauseus]

32 minutes ago, crobe said:

No, the timing should reflect the UK general election, and the chance for Brexit to have settled down and the consequences to be known.

The fact that there HAS to be a referendum in Northern Ireland (signed and agreed by Boris), at the same time is a happy coincidence, but is built on the same premise. It was after all the UK who insisted on Northern Ireland having a final say in the process.

10 years is sufficient time between referenda given the changed circumstances, and 4 years on from Brexit should allow enough time to show whether the "sunny uplands of global UK" post-Brexit can be realised - or are the Bexiteers too scared?

After the Holyrood elections Nicola Sturgeon should call Westminster's bluff and request the indyref2 for December 2024 as this would seem reasonable to most people

 

Refusal by Westminster again would only stoke the independence movement.

 

So would you agree to a new referendum in 2024 - or are you really a "never let them vote again in case" brexiteer?

To respond to your final question: no and also no. I don't agree with your estimates of what time intervals might be "sufficient". Additionally, and possibly news to you, Northern Ireland will decide whether or not to consent to continue applying Articles 5 to 10 of the NI Protocol via a vote by the Northern Ireland Assembly but not a referendum.

[nauseus]

4 minutes ago, robblok said:

Lets hope the poor Scots can get a vote and finally get free of the British rule. To have their own government make their own decisions. Their decision is to remain in Eu.

 

Strange that Brexiteers do want a brexit but don't accept the Scots now want to leave. Seems highly hypocritic.  Then again nothing surprises me of Brexiteers. 

 

 

Tastes like mashed potatoes.

[crobe]

7 minutes ago, nauseus said:

To respond to your final question: no and also no. I don't agree with your estimates of what time intervals might be "sufficient". Additionally, and possibly news to you, Northern Ireland will decide whether or not to consent to continue applying Articles 5 to 10 of the NI Protocol via a vote by the Northern Ireland Assembly but not a referendum.

And there is the problem - the Brexiteers try to mask their anti-democratic behaviour by not allowing a vote at ANY TIME

They refuse to answer the question - is it 42 years as between the first EU referendum and the second, or 19 years between the first EU referendum and the formation of the UKIP party to leave Europe, or 10 years - which could seem to be a reasonable time given the changed circumstances

 

Why does that seem to be a reasonable time - because it is the time period post-Brexit agreed by the (Brexiteer) UK government - they did not change this in the revised protocol

 

And would it be acceptable that a change for Scotland would not be by a referendum but by a vote in the Scottish assembly - where there may be an SNP majority?

[Rookiescot]

2 hours ago, vogie said:

It states "a result that everyone will respect" it says everyone, can I assume that this means you also? Your leaders put the time limit on future referendums.

Alex Salmond couldn't have been more clearer when he said:-

 

 

Wow Vogie.

You thought you struck gold there didnt you?

What Salmond was talking about was this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979_Scottish_devolution_referendum#:~:text=The Scottish referendum of 1979,devolved deliberative assembly for Scotland.&text=The Act was subsequently repealed.

 

Where Perfidious Albion decided that a majority (almost 52% would you believe) were outvoted by a minority (48% oddly) and a Scottish parliament was not formed in 1979.

What was that you were saying about democracy?

[Rookiescot]

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

Asinine? Again? ????

I also used the words Its. Then and the.

Is there a problem with those too or are you just trying to be your usual dismissive self? 

[nauseus]

5 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

I also used the words Its. Then and the.

Is there a problem with those too or are you just trying to be your usual dismissive self? 

Asinine.

[Rookiescot]

2 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Asinine.

Tastes like mashed potato.

We going to be doing this a lot or will you actually post something worth responding to?

[vogie]

22 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Wow Vogie.

You thought you struck gold there didnt you?

What Salmond was talking about was this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979_Scottish_devolution_referendum#:~:text=The Scottish referendum of 1979,devolved deliberative assembly for Scotland.&text=The Act was subsequently repealed.

 

Where Perfidious Albion decided that a majority (almost 52% would you believe) were outvoted by a minority (48% oddly) and a Scottish parliament was not formed in 1979.

What was that you were saying about democracy?

Just before you dig your old Braveheart videos out, the internet is full of Mr Salmond stating the "once in a lifetime" remark, even recorded in the Edinburgh Agreement as "will be respected by everyone" 

 

 

[Rookiescot]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

Just before you dig your old Braveheart videos out, the internet is full of Mr Salmond stating the "once in a lifetime" remark, even recorded in the Edinburgh Agreement as "will be respected by everyone" 

 

 

It was. We are still in the UK.

Alex Salmond no longer leads the SNP.

And his personal opinion. Which he stated several times it was. Is not binding on the people of Scotland.

The will of the people of Scotland, as shown by the last seven polls and the collapse of the Unionist vote is what matters.

Should Johnson be dead in a ditch? Because he said that and hes still alive and well and in fact Prime Minister of the UK.

[Rookiescot]

Hey Vogie.

Is this binding as well?

 

 

[shy coconut]

On 9/3/2020 at 1:35 AM, vogie said:

Who will the SNP blame when they have finally rid themselves of the so loathsome English, nationalists need someone to hate, that's how they function. 

If you vote other than a nationalist you are branded scum or a traitor, that is not the way a modern fully functional society should work. 

That's pretty rich coming from a brexiteer, perhaps the Scots want to take back 

control and not have others dictating their laws etc etc.....

Maybe an independent utopia will be every bit as good as post Brexit england.

[vogie]

35 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

It was. We are still in the UK. 

Alex Salmond no longer leads the SNP.

And his personal opinion. Which he stated several times it was. Is not binding on the people of Scotland.

The will of the people of Scotland, as shown by the last seven polls and the collapse of the Unionist vote is what matters.

Should Johnson be dead in a ditch? Because he said that and hes still alive and well and in fact Prime Minister of the UK.

It was. We are still in the UK. 

 You are still in the UK but not of your own choice.

 

Alex Salmond no longer leads the SNP. 

He led the SNP when you had your crucial vote, he was responsible for his words.

 

And his personal opinion. Which he stated several times it was. Is not binding on the people of Scotland.

His words would have had an impact on the Scottish electorate.

 

The will of the people of Scotland, as shown by the last seven polls and the collapse of the Unionist vote is what matters.

Polls are not what matters, referendums count.

 

Should Johnson be dead in a ditch? Because he said that and hes still alive and well and in fact Prime Minister of the UK.

Clutching at straws now rookie, quite a rediculous comparison.

 

 

 

[Rookiescot]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

It was. We are still in the UK. 

 You are still in the UK but not of your own choice.

 

Alex Salmond no longer leads the SNP. 

He led the SNP when you had your crucial vote, he was responsible for his words.

 

And his personal opinion. Which he stated several times it was. Is not binding on the people of Scotland.

His words would have had an impact on the Scottish electorate.

 

The will of the people of Scotland, as shown by the last seven polls and the collapse of the Unionist vote is what matters.

Polls are not what matters, referendums count.

 

Should Johnson be dead in a ditch? Because he said that and hes still alive and well and in fact Prime Minister of the UK.

Clutching at straws now rookie, quite a rediculous comparison.

 

 

 

Clutching at straws?

 

You are still in the UK but not of your own choice.

Yes we are still in the UK. It was not what I voted for but others did. Now a minority by the way.

 

He led the SNP when you had your crucial vote, he was responsible for his words.

Johnson is responsible for his words. He said dead in a ditch.  

 

His words would have had an impact on the Scottish electorate.

As did Camerons. As did Barossa. As did Obama. As did Putin. All at the behest of the UK government.

 

The will of the people of Scotland, as shown by the last seven polls and the collapse of the Unionist vote is what matters.

But you dont want the people to have a say do you? You simply want to have people shackled to a vote from 6 years ago when things were vastly different. No-one is allowed a say unless they agree with what you want.

 

Should Johnson be dead in a ditch? Because he said that and hes still alive and well and in fact Prime Minister of the UK.

How is it a ridiculous comparison? You are claiming everything said by a politician is now in tablets of stone and cannot be overturned.

Except when its one of your politicians because then its somehow different.

 

The union is finished Vogie. Its done. Accept it and move on. How would you feel if the EU had said "No you already had a vote on the EU so you cant ask that question again".

[crobe]

The Brexiteers are now on the wrong side of history

There are two places that spring to kind where even asking for an independence vote is barred - the new draconian laws put in place in Hong Kong by communist China and old colonial laws against sedition enacted to quell the natives

Nice to see that the neo-colonialist brexiteers are now taking their cues from the CCP

[crobe]

4 hours ago, vogie said:

Seriously, if you keep badgering me I shall report you, it is againgst forum rules as I suspect you well know. This is the third time now, I will answer questions I choose to answer and not on your orders. You come out with phrases like "what are the brexiteers scared of" now where have I heard that before. Stop baiting other members and try to learn some forum manners!

You mean badgering like

"Do the UK waters belong to the UK or not......Yes or No...?", over and over again

or is it just one rule for brexiteers and different for others

Oh I forgot - according to the latest admission by the Northern Ireland minister the Brexiteer government does not have to abide by rules such as international treaty obligations...

No credibility from these hypocrites 

[Purdey]

On 9/7/2020 at 6:57 PM, kingdong said:

a by product of unlimited immigration and the strain it puts on education service.

The two are unrelated in my opinion. Immigrants are a tiny minority and therefore won't drag national numbers down significantly. The also want an education.

The problem has always been an underfunded education system with teachers who are badly treated by governments in terms of salaries, equipment and morale. We can't blame immigrants for every endemic problem in Britain.

Research by the LSE shows that Scottish education has remained static since 1997 (while outperforming the rest of the UK for many years). Now England is catching up and surpassing Scotland in many ways. 

Source www.Cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/cp391.pdf

[evadgib]

The McMafia are going to love this, as are the ???????? Ponti's re ????????'s ???????? ...????

Quote

The Shetland islands have voted to explore independence from Scotland as they have become increasingly frustrated with the Edinburgh government.

The majority of Shetland’s 22 councillors voted to explore options for achieving “financial and political self-determination”.

The motion that was passed by the council said some of their decision-making powers had been taken away and public funding had been consistently reduced in recent years....

Shetland council votes overwhelmingly to explore independence from Scotland

[vogie]

19 minutes ago, evadgib said:

The McMafia are going to love this, as are the ???????? Ponti's re ????????'s ???????? ...????

Shetland council votes overwhelmingly to explore independence from Scotland

Seems to me that the nationalists are going to end up as 'Oor Wullie' no mates. ????????????

[evadgib]

26 minutes ago, vogie said:

Seems to me that the nationalists are going to end up as 'Oor Wullie' no mates. ????????????

....& 'nae fushh' ????

 

Speaking of which...

Quote

Marine Management Organisation (MMO) is helping fishing and seafood industries to prepare for our new trading relationships with the EU and rest of the world.

Helping the fishing industry transition to independence

Edited September 11, 2020 by evadgib

[RuamRudy]

18 minutes ago, evadgib said:

The McMafia are going to love this, as are the ???????? Ponti's re ????????'s ???????? ...????

Shetland council votes overwhelmingly to explore independence from Scotland

Did you not read the article? You shouldn't rely on a headline to give you all the input - that is why we ended up in this embarrassing Brexit nightmare.

 

For those too otherwise occupied to click the link and actually read it, the councilors want greater financial autonomy. That is the story - nothing about indepndence from Scotland, England, the UK or whatever. 

 

However, brace yourselves for many further dirty tricks from our London government as they go into full panic mode at the prospect of losing another cashcow. This is only one of many that will come along. 

[RuamRudy]

5 minutes ago, vogie said:

Seems to me that the nationalists are going to end up as 'Oor Wullie' no mates. ????????????

But it is the unionists who are well and truly the minority. Not that we would ostracise them - there are so few supporters of continuing this farce of a union that to do so would see them very much on their own. 

[vogie]

Just now, RuamRudy said:

But it is the unionists who are well and truly the minority. Not that we would ostracise them - there are so few supporters of continuing this farce of a union that to do so would see them very much on their own. 

Yeah, get rid of those traitors Rudy.

[evadgib]

2 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Did you not read the article? You shouldn't rely on a headline to give you all the input - that is why we ended up in this embarrassing Brexit nightmare.

 

For those too otherwise occupied to click the link and actually read it, the councilors want greater financial autonomy. That is the story - nothing about indepndence from Scotland, England, the UK or whatever. 

 

However, brace yourselves for many further dirty tricks from our London government as they go into full panic mode at the prospect of losing another cashcow. This is only one of many that will come along. 

I did say you were going to love it, RR ????

[RuamRudy]

Just now, vogie said:

Yeah, get rid of those traitors Rudy.

Traitors? Such bitter and divisive words are the language of Brexiteers; the language of hate, of xenophobia and exclusion and division. Please don't try to foist upon us the nastiness that you have embraced and glorified. 

[evadgib]

4 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

But it is the unionists who are well and truly the minority. Not that we would ostracise them - there are so few supporters of continuing this farce of a union that to do so would see them very much on their own. 

The 49ers (all 3 of him) were supposed to be looking into that. Fortunately I picked up the detail a fortnight ago.

[RuamRudy]

3 minutes ago, evadgib said:

I did say you were going to love it, RR ????

I actually think it is a great idea - I hope it gains traction and empowers other regions to take up the same cause. I don't want Scotland to be modeled on the UK's administrative arrangements. The objective of fiscal autonomy is clear and valid, likewise for Speyside and Grampian. We need to see much more recognition at a regional level for the contributions said regions make to the economy, and we need to see much more devolved decision making. 

[vogie]

3 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Traitors? Such bitter and divisive words are the language of Brexiteers; the language of hate, of xenophobia and exclusion and division. Please don't try to foist upon us the nastiness that you have embraced and glorified. 

First it was 'England out of Scotland'

Secondly it was Tory Scum out

Thirdly it was Unionists traitors

Who will be the next to hate and remove from this Nationalist country.

While we're at it, what is the difference between an English Nationalist and a Scottish Nationalist?

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, vogie said:

First it was 'England out of Scotland'

Secondly it was Tory Scum out

Thirdly it was Unionists traitors

Who will be the next to hate and remove from this Nationalist country.

While we're at it, what is the difference between an English Nationalist and a Scottish Nationalist?

Now you are simply telling lies - why do you feel that you need to openly lie? If you have no argument, be a man and say so, but lying is such a childish approach to take, and you lose all credibility. 

 

Here are the facts - Brexit is the movement of hate, of exceptionalism, the one that rallied the racists and the hate mongers and the xenophobes. Hell, your cherished movement even led to the murder of an opposing politician. Whether you wear your cloak of shame is up to your own conscience, but please don't try to taint the Scottish independence movement with the verifiable shame of Brexit. 

[vogie]

6 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Now you are simply telling lies - why do you feel that you need to openly lie? If you have no argument, be a man and say so, but lying is such a childish approach to take, and you lose all credibility. 

 

Here are the facts - Brexit is the movement of hate, of exceptionalism, the one that rallied the racists and the hate mongers and the xenophobes. Hell, your cherished movement even led to the murder of an opposing politician. Whether you wear your cloak of shame is up to your own conscience, but please don't try to taint the Scottish independence movement with the verifiable shame of Brexit. 

Cheap remark having to bring Jo Cox into your defence, shame on you. But when in a hole bring out the 'liar' the 'irrelevant' and ignoring the question put to you. As Charles de Gaulle said "patriotism is when your own country comes first, nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first"

And from where I am standing the hate is not eminating from the Brexiteers, infact just the opposite.