Does anyone have kefir grains?

[Konini]

I think most of mine have died, desperately seeking   

[uncleP]

I'm  in the same boat

[beau thai]

try aden health store - via google

[Konini]

1 hour ago, beau thai said:

try aden health store - via google

Thanks, I've sent them a message.  They sell several kinds of bottled kefir, so fingers crossed.

[phetphet]

Do you know that  you can freeze them? That's what I did last year with some as a precaution against them dying. 

 

Quite simple. You can google how to do it. So next time you have some and they start to grow, freeze the extra.

Mine were in the freezer for over a year, and reactivated once I put them in some milk.

[Sheryl]

PM @tropo

[Konini]

1 hour ago, phetphet said:

Do you know that  you can freeze them? That's what I did last year with some as a precaution against them dying. 

 

Quite simple. You can google how to do it. So next time you have some and they start to grow, freeze the extra.

Mine were in the freezer for over a year, and reactivated once I put them in some milk.

Thanks, that's what I was aiming to do because I'm obsessive about backups (you want to see my scoby hotel), but I didn't get far enough to make myself a backup.  I bought some dehydrated ones and after a few days of settling them in they were producing nice kefir, 2 cups every day which is exactly what I wanted.  Over 6 weeks, the grains didn't seem to grow at all, so last week I put them into a muslim baggie in case I was missing the tiny new ones (very unlikely as I was using a professional grade fine sieve) and when I opened up the baggie today it looked pretty empty.  I scraped out all of the kefir into a new jar with milk, and I'm hoping that there will be something there tomorrow, but I've found a shop selling them, Aden Health Store recommended by Beau Thai.  I sent them a message and they replied that they sell them and they are fresh, not dehydrated, so I'll be heading to them in the next couple of days to buy some.  And as soon as I have enough spare, I'll freeze some and dehydrate some so I've got backup.

[Konini]

1 hour ago, Sheryl said:

PM @tropo

Thanks for the heads-up Sheryl, but I've found a shop just down the road that has fresh grains for sale so I'll head down there tomorrow.

[Konini]

5 hours ago, uncleP said:

I'm  in the same boat

I'll let you know how much they are when I get them from Aden Health Store.  Or you can wait a few weeks and I'll have spare ones (I hope).

[fangless]

I have just been on this site to try and find out what KEFIR is
https://www.culturesforhealth.com/learn/milk-kefir/how-to-find-milk-kefir-grains/

It said the following;

 

WHAT ARE MILK KEFIR GRAINS & WHERE DO THEY COME FROM?
Milk kefir grains are a mother culture made up of polysaccharides, the primary of which is kefiran[1]. Within this matrix of polysaccharides exists both bacteria and yeasts which exist in symbiosis both with each other and the milk it cultures and feeds from. These grains have a gelatinous feel to them and appear in a sort of miniature floret shape, much like cauliflower.

The bacteria and yeast composition of milk kefir grains tend to vary according to their origin as well as their culturing environment. In other words, where the grains came from and where they are currently being used can impact the makeup of the microorganisms existing in the milk kefir grains.

I am none the wiser having read the above,

In plain English can anyone explain what it does or doesn't do and why should anyone care?
 

[jak2002003]

7 minutes ago, fangless said:

I have just been on this site to try and find out what KEFIR is
https://www.culturesforhealth.com/learn/milk-kefir/how-to-find-milk-kefir-grains/

It said the following;

 

WHAT ARE MILK KEFIR GRAINS & WHERE DO THEY COME FROM?
Milk kefir grains are a mother culture made up of polysaccharides, the primary of which is kefiran[1]. Within this matrix of polysaccharides exists both bacteria and yeasts which exist in symbiosis both with each other and the milk it cultures and feeds from. These grains have a gelatinous feel to them and appear in a sort of miniature floret shape, much like cauliflower.

The bacteria and yeast composition of milk kefir grains tend to vary according to their origin as well as their culturing environment. In other words, where the grains came from and where they are currently being used can impact the makeup of the microorganisms existing in the milk kefir grains.

I am none the wiser having read the above,

In plain English can anyone explain what it does or doesn't do and why should anyone care?
 

They are one of the new cure all, magic, super food, extending life things....that are, as usual, hard to get and expensive...and actually have little if any benefit to life..

[onebir]

7 minutes ago, fangless said:

In plain English can anyone explain what it does or doesn't do and why should anyone care?

I had to google it too. Similar to yoghurt, fermented with more/different microorganisms, may be more beneficial to gut health; apparently more sour than yoghurt, so people might just prefer the taste.

 

OP: You can't just buy ready-made kefir & use it as a starter, like yoghurt?

[Konini]

9 hours ago, jak2002003 said:

They are one of the new cure all, magic, super food, extending life things....that are, as usual, hard to get and expensive...and actually have little if any benefit to life..

To some of us they aren't so new, I remember people pulling faces at me 30 years ago. 

 

It is nice, refreshing but tart milk drink with beneficial probiotics which may help gut health or there again it may be just a nice refreshing drink.   Either way, we both enjoy it as a mid morning drink, anything over that is a bonus.

[Konini]

9 hours ago, onebir said:

I had to google it too. Similar to yoghurt, fermented with more/different microorganisms, may be more beneficial to gut health; apparently more sour than yoghurt, so people might just prefer the taste.

 

OP: You can't just buy ready-made kefir & use it as a starter, like yoghurt?

Similar to yoghurt is how I describe it to people who've never heard of it, although it is a lot thicker than yoghurt drinks, more like the consistency of flavoured yoghurt I'd get occasionally as a child once it had been stirred.  Mam was ahead of her time and knew that anything that colour was bad for us.

 

I've been making yoghurt for donkey's years and buy a new pot of Bulgaria yoghurt for a fresh starter once a year or so.  Kefir is different in that the bacteria are grains and not invisible 'things' - not sure why they're called grains, they look like mini cauliflowers - and you can't make the drink without having obtained some grains.  Sourness - I honestly think it's more tart than sour, possibly a combination of the current popularity amongst the hipster crowd and the unpopularity of, or simply not knowing, the word tart, depends on you; leave it for so many hours or days before putting it in the fridge to stop it fermenting, the longer you leave it out the more tart it gets. This is a personal taste thing and known only by experimentation.  For us, in Chiang Mai for most of the year 48 hours on the bench is the sweet spot, a bit longer in the winter and as little as 8 hours overnight in the hot months of April and May then the grains also have to go into the fridge for the rest of the day.   In that, it's the same as making yoghurt; I don't listen to the newbie hipsters who tell me yoghurt is ready in 6 hours at exactly 42 degrees C.  Mine cooks away for a bare minimum of 24 hours at more like 50 degrees C for as long as my towel and blanket wrapped foam cooler will hold it there.  Somewhere between 36 and 40 hours seems to be the sweet spot for us. The longer it goes for, the tarter it gets.  Then drain it and reduce the volume by almost half and you can pretty much slice it. Magnificent.

[fangless]

Thanks folks for your clear and non bitchy explanations/answers to my serious question.
A refreshing change!

[beau thai]

1 hour ago, Konini said:

Similar to yoghurt is how I describe it to people who've never heard of it, although it is a lot thicker than yoghurt drinks, more like the consistency of flavoured yoghurt I'd get occasionally as a child once it had been stirred.  Mam was ahead of her time and knew that anything that colour was bad for us.

 

I've been making yoghurt for donkey's years and buy a new pot of Bulgaria yoghurt for a fresh starter once a year or so.  Kefir is different in that the bacteria are grains and not invisible 'things' - not sure why they're called grains, they look like mini cauliflowers - and you can't make the drink without having obtained some grains.  Sourness - I honestly think it's more tart than sour, possibly a combination of the current popularity amongst the hipster crowd and the unpopularity of, or simply not knowing, the word tart, depends on you; leave it for so many hours or days before putting it in the fridge to stop it fermenting, the longer you leave it out the more tart it gets. This is a personal taste thing and known only by experimentation.  For us, in Chiang Mai for most of the year 48 hours on the bench is the sweet spot, a bit longer in the winter and as little as 8 hours overnight in the hot months of April and May then the grains also have to go into the fridge for the rest of the day.   In that, it's the same as making yoghurt; I don't listen to the newbie hipsters who tell me yoghurt is ready in 6 hours at exactly 42 degrees C.  Mine cooks away for a bare minimum of 24 hours at more like 50 degrees C for as long as my towel and blanket wrapped foam cooler will hold it there.  Somewhere between 36 and 40 hours seems to be the sweet spot for us. The longer it goes for, the tarter it gets.  Then drain it and reduce the volume by almost half and you can pretty much slice it. Magnificent.

I see that you use Bulgaria as a starter sometimes and wonder if you have tried Yolida? I like Bulgaria and may be kidding myself but I sesnse that Yolida is more 'natural' - or maybe its just personal taste!

[Nout]

12 hours ago, Konini said:

Thanks for the heads-up Sheryl, but I've found a shop just down the road that has fresh grains for sale so I'll head down there tomorrow.

Where?

[Nout]

Health hut in Pattaya sells kefir as does food mart

[Konini]

2 hours ago, Nout said:

Health hut in Pattaya sells kefir as does food mart

OP here - I'm in Chiang Mai.  Don't know about Health Hut, but the supermarket definitely sells pre-made kefir drinks in bottles not the grains which are used to ferment milk from scratch.  It's a very specialised item to have for sale anywhere, especially fresh rather than frozen or dehydrated.

[Nout]

52 minutes ago, Konini said:

OP here - I'm in Chiang Mai.  Don't know about Health Hut, but the supermarket definitely sells pre-made kefir drinks in bottles not the grains which are used to ferment milk from scratch.  It's a very specialised item to have for sale anywhere, especially fresh rather than frozen or dehydrated.

There definitely yoghurt starter kits here ..Healthhut in Pattaya makes it own kefir milk and also ginger flavor kefir water Good luck

[Konini]

3 hours ago, beau thai said:

I see that you use Bulgaria as a starter sometimes and wonder if you have tried Yolida? I like Bulgaria and may be kidding myself but I sesnse that Yolida is more 'natural' - or maybe its just personal taste!

Nowhere near as nice in my experience.  I had no choice before Meiji brought out Bulgaria in Thailand, I forget how many years ago that was, and while it was OK it was never great.  I've always been wary about dried yoghurt cultures so wasn't keen on getting them from Europe and definitely couldn't bring fresh from our annual trips to either UK or Australia because of the length of time on the plane.  Kefir would have survived it with a bit of love and care at the end of the journey, but Bulgaria yoghurt cultures probably wouldn't have.

 

I've always used Bulgaria for a starter because there is, as you've found, a difference in the taste and it's a difference I prefer and so I will always use it as a starter when available, but there have been times over dozens of years of yoghurt making when I have been unable to source it and then I've had to experiment then made do with the best of what was available in my then location.  I've seen references to it being perhaps better for you, but I don't believe everything I read and that's not why I use it anyway.  I start with 5 litres of milk then strain about 2 litres of whey off, leaving 3 litres or 3 kg of very thick yoghurt.  That lasts the two of us maybe 10 days, give or take, usually half for use with fruits and half mixed with garlic, lemon juice and salt.  Obviously, we both like yoghurt and go through a lot of it.  I make it because no matter what country we live in, it's cheaper to make than buy when we use so much and more particularly here in Thailand.  I forget how much yoghurt costs, but I know it's not 200 baht for 3kg and then I have 2 litres of whey left over to use in cooking and baking.

 

I think the only reason to use Yolinda or any other yoghurt over Bulgaria is purely personal taste.  If Bulgaria is in any way better for us than the others, it's a bonus.  It certainly wouldn't sway my choice of starter culture.

 

For anyone interested, the only thing you need to make your own yoghurt is milk with a long sell-by date, a couple of spoons of yoghurt from a previous batch (or a single small tub of unflavoured yoghurt WITH LIVE CULTURES such as Meiji Bulgaria which is 20 baht) a fairly warm spot and a bit of patience.  It's best, but not essential, to scald the milk - that is to bring it up to about 90 degrees C or close to boiling - then let it cool to about 45-50 degrees C (if it's too hot for your little finger to stay in there, it's too hot and will kill the live cultures).  Take a bit of the cooled milk (or milk warmed to 45-50 degrees if you must) and stir your yoghurt starter in, then add that mix to the bulk of your milk and give it a good stir.  Put in into a glass or plastic container, any kind of non-metal container as long as it's clean, cover to keep insects out and maybe wrap a blanket or towel around it to keep it warm then put it somewhere nice and warm (no aircon, no draughts).  It will be yoghurt after around 6 hours technically, and can go into the fridge (keeps 10-ish days), but your tastebuds will thank you for leaving it longer - 56 hours is the longest I've ever left a batch (I simply forgot about it, it was a bit sharp but perfectly OK) but I'd say leave it at the very least 12 hours until you are confident at experimenting with longer (the longer you leave it the more tart or sharp it will become, personal taste).  Lumps are natural, sometimes you get them sometimes you don't, I think it must depend on the batch of milk as sometimes I get an odd lumpy batch of yoghurt.  You can give it a good stir if they offend you, but they won't hurt you. If you want a more Greek-like yoghurt, fashion an old tshirt or similar into something you can tie into a ball and put the yoghurt in the middle and hang over a bowl, jug or container big enough to catch the whey that drips out.  Chances are you'll make a bit of a mess before you can perfect a way of doing that, if you want to make it regularly it doesn't cost much to buy a sieve, then you can line that with your old t-shirt or a coffee filter and have no mess at all.  Worth buying a dedicated container to make it in and to strain it if you're going to make your own more than two or three times.  Nothing fancy, some plastics will absorb the smell of the yoghurt over time and it can be a bit unpleasant if you get a whiff of it - for that reason I got some extra large drink cups, the kind you buy slurpies and shakes in at markets.  The kind of clear plastic they're made for are perfect and never need changing if you wash them properly - beg one from a stall or buy a drink and take the cup home, they only sell in bulk at Makro and I'm still using the same 6 a week as I was at least 6 years ago, maybe more.  If you suspect that your resting spot may be particularly prone to insects or fruit fly, secure a piece of kitchen roll or similar with an elastic band.  Should also say that I'm onto my second foam icebox from Makro since we settled here 12 years ago, it helps to keep the temperature up, especially useful if leaving it for a long time.  Never use a big foam box unless you are going to fill most of the space with old towels or something, like fridges and freezers they are only efficient if pretty much full to the gunwales.  If using one, line the bottom of it with cling film/plastic wrap and dispose of it each use.  Trust me - little spills, big smells.  If you have a nice warm spot and you will only ever leave it 12 hours, you probably won't need one but I think mine were only 50 baht or so and I need that size because I make a lot at a time.  Some people might have an old thermos flask or similar lying around which would be ideal for smaller batches.

 

Feel free to PM me if you try it and come across anything you're unsure of or any questions that I haven't alluded to.  There are no rules except add fruit or flavours later and full fat milk gives the best tasting yoghurt, but there again so does full fat pretty much anything.  It won't help to use low or no fat milk if you're on a diet, the bacteria eats the lactose which is the both sugar in the milk and the real weight gain culprit, and it won't be anywhere as enjoyable to eat.

[Konini]

29 minutes ago, Nout said:

There definitely yoghurt starter kits here ..Healthhut in Pattaya makes it own kefir milk and also ginger flavor kefir water Good luck

Sounds like it definitely will have the grains then, but the supermarket wouldn't.  Mr K has just picked some up from the health foods store mentioned in the first reply to this topic, so I can get back into production later this afternoon.

[BritManToo]

On 9/15/2020 at 2:06 PM, Konini said:

Nowhere near as nice in my experience.

Tried Bulgaria (16hrs) and it works well but a bit slower than Yolida (8hrs).

No boiling or messing about, in a glass jar, stir in 2tbs of Bulgaria, cover and leave 16hrs.

 

Can't say I've noticed any difference in texture/taste, but it's easier to get hold of than Yolida.

Edited September 19, 2020 by BritManToo

[beau thai]

Discovered coconut milk kefir in jars at Chiang Mai Bakery, Nong Hoi today.  Gonna use a few teaspoonsful in coconut milk to see if anything resembling Coconut yoghurt results. If not off to Aden Health foods to grab his coconut yoghurt

[Konini]

1 minute ago, beau thai said:

Discovered coconut milk kefir in jars at Chiang Mai Bakery, Nong Hoi today.  Gonna use a few teaspoonsful in coconut milk to see if anything resembling Coconut yoghurt results. If not off to Aden Health foods to grab his coconut yoghurt

I've tried experimenting with various milks, always go back to the good old cow.

 

Using anything but dairy milk will weaken the grains over time as they don't get the lactose that they feed on, I didn't keep going with it long enough to experience this but it's something to look out for.

 

Thanks for the tip off for Aden - 250 baht but enough to divide into 5 baggies, 4 in the freezer and the fifth fermenting up nice thick and creamy kefir.

[Konini]

2 hours ago, BritManToo said:

Can't say I've noticed any difference in texture/taste, but it's easier to get hold of than Yolida.

Try leaving it a bit longer, my longest (mistake) was more than 4 days and it was OK.  Experiment with 24 hours, it gets tangy-er they longer you leave it.

 

I've found that scalding then cooling the milk makes a difference in the texture.  Also, whisking the milk for a few minutes whilst cooling seems to make it thicker, less whey comes off when I drain it.

[beau thai]

18 hours ago, Konini said:

I've tried experimenting with various milks, always go back to the good old cow.

 

Using anything but dairy milk will weaken the grains over time as they don't get the lactose that they feed on, I didn't keep going with it long enough to experience this but it's something to look out for.

 

Thanks for the tip off for Aden - 250 baht but enough to divide into 5 baggies, 4 in the freezer and the fifth fermenting up nice thick and creamy kefir.

i fear you may be right but I cant tolerate dairy now. so one last try before I give up on yoghurt totally. Maybe I will trek over to Aden Stoere as he stocks coconut yoghurt and will probably share some tips on making it.

At least Chiang Mai Bakery Nong Hoi stocks a good range of very tasty almond milk cheeses, even though a tad costly at 1000bht/kg. But in 150-170g packs.

[Konini]

8 hours ago, beau thai said:

i fear you may be right but I cant tolerate dairy now. so one last try before I give up on yoghurt totally. Maybe I will trek over to Aden Stoere as he stocks coconut yoghurt and will probably share some tips on making it.

At least Chiang Mai Bakery Nong Hoi stocks a good range of very tasty almond milk cheeses, even though a tad costly at 1000bht/kg. But in 150-170g packs.

Sorry to hear about your dairy problem, I can't imagine a world without it - we go through at least 10 litres a week not including cheese.  Have you tried making your own kefir and leaving it to ferment for a good couple of days before drinking a little?  If it's the lactose you have the problem with, the kefir grains feed on the sugar (lactose) and if left long enough they'll gobble the whole lot, meaning you may possibly be OK with it, I've read that many lactose intolerant people get away with it.  Same with yoghurt left fermenting for a good couple of days but I don't think the bacteria are as gutsy as kefir grains so the lactose may not be all gone.  If you haven't tried it, it might be worth a go. 

 

I haven't tried nut milk cheese, to be honest I hadn't heard about it before reading your post.  I'm about to start making cheese myself for the first time, got everything I need for the easy soft cheeses to practice on before trying the easiest hard cheese, Wensleydale (which happens to be my favourite when topped with raspberry jam).  Hopefully this week if I can organise myself to find the time to go into town to get some raw milk.

[onebir]

On 9/15/2020 at 3:52 AM, Konini said:

Then drain it and reduce the volume by almost half and you can pretty much slice it.

Sounds good! Actually, when I've let yoghurt ferment for a long time & it gets very thick, it also can get little grains in it. (I think this is why Greek yoghurt is strained?))

[Konini]

8 hours ago, onebir said:

Sounds good! Actually, when I've let yoghurt ferment for a long time & it gets very thick, it also can get little grains in it. (I think this is why Greek yoghurt is strained?))

Leaving it longer does make it thicker to a certain extent (and more tart tasting), but after 18 hours or so it doesn't get any thicker; after my four and a half day mistake, mine still had to be strained to get it to the consistency we like.  When you strain it, it only takes off the whey - the little 'grains' in there are really just little lumps; they are 'concentrated' yoghurt.  They won't hurt you, but a quick stir brings everything back together and smooth.  I think I said earlier that different batches of milk (I tend to use the same type every time) must be at least partly responsible for the lumps, I rarely get them, but there again I take it from the foam box and put it straight into the strainer so probably wouldn't notice unless it was really lumpy. 

 

Whisking the milk for a while during cooling to the right temperature before adding the starter definitely does something to it though - I know milk pretty much everywhere is homogenised unless you seek out milk that isn't, maybe it homogenises it a bit more, science was never my thing but more years than I want to think about has proved to me that I don't get as much whey if I have time to whisk it that so it must change the something in the makeup of the milk which leads to the end product being thicker too.

 

But any way you make it, and any way you like it - sweet, tart, thick, thin - it's doing your gut a fair bit of good.  And it tastes good.