Hard truths about travelling to Thailand, right now

[ThailandRyan]

12 minutes ago, Bluedan said:

The other diseases and road accidents are public health issues

Please explain how a road accident or even a road accident related death is a Public health issue.  Are you trying to say that the hospitals are always full of accident victims because of a lack of enforcement, or just that riding a motorcycle or driving a car is a public health issue.  If your trying to say the poor air quality causes the rider of a motorcycle or driver of a car a public health issue, then this I can agree with.  However, an accident in no way compares to a world pandemic and will never close the borders to save an entire population from the possibility of straining the hospital system because of the virus.  Road accidents are an already known commodity where the implications of the spread of Covid is not.  The world is pretty much closed down, travel is negligible and families are hurting financially in totality.  An accident or road death only impacts one  or maybe a few households.  Covid has the ability to ruin the entire population if it goes unfettered or unchecked.

Edited October 7, 2020 by ThailandRyan

[Bluedan]

1 minute ago, ThailandRyan said:

Please explain how a road accident or even a road accident related death is a Public health issue.  Are you trying to say that the hospitals are always full of accident victims because of a lack of enforcement, or just that riding a motorcycle or driving a car is a public health issue.  If your trying to say the poor air quality causes the rider of a motorcycle r driver of a car a public health issue, then this I can agree with.  However, and accident in no way compares to a world pandemic and will never close the borders to save an entire population from the possibility of straining the hospital system because of the virus.  Road accidents are an already known commodity where the implications of the spread of Covid is not.

people die in road accidents ...many of them .....nothing is done to make the roads safer...death and injuries on the roads is not a public health issue? I would have thought any premature cause of death and terrible disability is exactly that...its has to be an organic disease to be a public health issue? 

the government could make many steps to stop the loss of lives in the road but they do nothing

yet for Corona virus they take the most draconian steps possible

another example that may help you

diabetes and obesity due to sugar consumption are causing a health epidemic here and all over the world 

very little is done as the nation gorges itself on sugar and junk food

and incidentally these conditions are some of the most dangerous factors leading to bad COVID outcomes...again what if any education or action is taken too mitigate these massive health issues

get it?

[Artisi]

23 minutes ago, RocketDog said:

Thanks so much for your approval of my attitude. You can't guess how much that means to me. Or maybe you can. 

Your attitude had all ready been established and now confirmed without any doubt, as for approval, that's only in your eyes. 

[A512]

well if the monkeys see bananas you can't fool them, yelling: it is mangoes!  ha ha ha

[runamok27]

The problem is that every country went from managing the cases to flatten the infection curve to not overwhelm the medical facilities to we need to eradicate this virus from our country. In order to eradicate any virus you need to completely box in your country, which just isn't practical. Waiting for a vaccine is just nonsense. The current vaccine testing going on is all going to produce bogus results. These test subjects are getting vaccinated and then wearing masks and social distancing with many in the test areas living as shut ins and going nowhere due to lockdowns. The data needs to be for people getting vaccinated and then living normally. Any vaccine will get high marks if the test subjects are not subjecting themselves to the virus. They can try to control for all of this but the data is going to be suspect at best. 

 

I tend to agree with the medical professionals who think this virus is weakening, like all corona virus have in the past. Look at Trump, he's a walking corona virus death risk, he's old (74 I believe), he's overweight, he eats a ton of fast food and doesn't appear to exercise at all and 3 days after getting diagnosed with the corona virus he's back at work. Sure one person doesn't explain it all but even the death rates are way down. Early on when we didn't know much and it seemed like people were dropping dead left and right caution made sense but now there still needs to be some caution but it seems like a lot of countries are being way too cautious, including Thailand.

[Jumbo1968]

I think the biggest problem with Thailand is anyone who is diagnosed they are treated as if they have the plague and hospitalised when the majority of healthy people can recover in 4/5 days but have to self isolate. Is it because the Thai Government don’t trust people to self isolate, are they ill  informed or scaremongering people ?

[Anna Rak]

Don't know if this has been mentioned, but while watching the Thai channel 7 news early this morning in the U.K. with my Thai wife there was an article about Vietnam opening up to tourists from Yesterday. Looks like the Thai Junta have dragged their feet to long and missed the boat or could that be Submarine.  

[Jumbo1968]

2 minutes ago, Anna Rak said:

Don't know if this has been mentioned, but while watching the Thai channel 7 news early this morning in the U.K. with my Thai wife there was an article about Vietnam opening up to tourists from Yesterday. Looks like the Thai Junta have dragged their feet to long and missed the boat or could that be Submarine.  

Of topic but how do you receive Thai TV in the U.K. .

[mlkik]

1 hour ago, Jumbo1968 said:

Of topic but how do you receive Thai TV in the U.K. .

Ever heard of the internet ? 555

[Jumbo1968]

2 minutes ago, mlkik said:

Ever heard of the internet ? 555

Yes but I thought there maybe an app to receive it.

[mlkik]

11 minutes ago, Jumbo1968 said:

Yes but I thought there maybe an app to receive it.

Just do a google search, there are loads available.

[chilli42]

11 hours ago, from the home of CC said:

Why in the hell would you want to put a whole population at risk for this 'balance' that doesn't exist.

Whole population at risk?  What in <delete> are you talking about?  The rate of death, as unfortunate as it is, is minuscule as a percent of the population.  Thailand has the additional positives of a very young population with very low incidence of the key co-morbidities of obesity, heart disease and diabetes.  Yes, you are risking a tiny fraction of the population for the well being of the benefit of the 99.99% who will not die.

 

 

[Youlike]

17 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

You really need a better source for your news.  In the US, over 200k are now dead due to CV19.  The seasonal flu takes between 12k and 65k annually.  No comparison.  And hardly a scam.

Every day 5900 americans die of natural causes, every day again, that includes flue, cancer and all other causes of death.

 

5900x365= 2.153.000 who die every year. So your 200.000 covid deaths make 1 out of 10 americans who died this year died of covid-19...

 

That's still a very low number, keep in mind that they blame most deads on covid and that the numbers are all fake...the test included.

 

[farang85]

open everything with rapid testing and mandatory tracking  when covid positive. 

[SmartyMarty]

On 10/6/2020 at 11:14 AM, Grumpy John said:

I read the other day 38 have died this year because of dengue fever with 60.000 effected.  Many thousands die on the roads each year and little is done to curb that.  The flu takes many many people each year.  People die from diabetes, cancer, lung disease, suicide.  So,  to those in power and to us normal people death is an everyday thing, it happens everyday for whatever reason yet the Wuhan China virus is being treated differently.  Why?  Is it a power game?  Prayuths much loved emergency decrees seem to be coming every month on a regular basis now.  Honestly I am finding it hard to understand how they can destroy the economy and effect many millions when only 59 have died.

It is precisely because they shut down that so few have been killed by the virus. All modeling both in Thailand and overseas shows if you don't shut down, the death toll will be catastrophic. It ain't rocket science.

[woogoo]

21 minutes ago, SmartyMarty said:

It is precisely because they shut down that so few have been killed by the virus. All modeling both in Thailand and overseas shows if you don't shut down, the death toll will be catastrophic. It ain't rocket science.

That's why many of the countries that locked down are experiencing high case numbers supposedly? Or they just didn't lock down enough? Or is lockdown in Thailand somehow same same but different? 

 

Or, maybe, just maybe, this is all a bunch of nonsense and there's zero scientific precedent for quarantining entire countries. It is, however, an authoritarians wet dream.

[Stargeezr]

I wished the media would get the numbers from all countries of how many people

have died in each country since March.   If we saw just how many total deaths of everything

in each country, I am sure the numbers are way more than normal.   Now there are posters

who think that it is a normal year for deaths, they are wrong.   Yes the number of deaths around the

world for just vehicle accidents involving deaths are likely higher than normal. Deaths from the other

diseases are likely about the same as always.   Deaths from suicides are likely higher than normal.

   Come on news media, could at least one of you do some research and show us how bad

this year has been for people dying?    I am glad that it is still difficult to travel everywhere,

as without a vaccine and some other way to control this virus as well as all the other ways to die,

I am happy to stay at home until some things improve.

Geezer

[Jumbo1968]

1 hour ago, SmartyMarty said:

It is precisely because they shut down that so few have been killed by the virus. All modeling both in Thailand and overseas shows if you don't shut down, the death toll will be catastrophic. It ain't rocket science.

It doesn’t appear lockdowns have worked in Europe as soon as they open up again there is a spike, the virus doesn’t disappear when you lockdown. There  are less deaths but that’s because the vulnerable have passed away. 

[anto]

On 10/6/2020 at 1:56 AM, Jeffr2 said:

Covid isn't rife here.  If it was, we'd be seeing pics of overloaded hospitals.  I've been in several recently, they're pretty much empty.  Sad some think it's a bluff.  It's not.

Most of the hospitals in Europe are half empty.Waiting for a Plague that never came .Just the same old flu of a different strain .Death rates have flat lined but will rise soon as they always do in Autumn Winter for a flu.

[Visarghhhh]

There should be a way to allow retirement visa holders and applicants to return to Thailand, even from high risk countries, using testing and quarantines.  How can they sell condos to them and not let them back in?  There are Thai families depending on them, like in my case and I've been locked out for 7 months and still waiting.  This is nothing unique to Thailand as many other countries are locked down to international travel as well.  

[Bluedan]

5 hours ago, SmartyMarty said:

It is precisely because they shut down that so few have been killed by the virus. All modeling both in Thailand and overseas shows if you don't shut down, the death toll will be catastrophic. It ain't rocket science.

The virus was here in January if not earlier. Lockdown was in late March. So between January and late March before the shutdown the virus just sat in the corner twiddling its thumbs?

You can't possibly credit the lockdown for lack of spread during that period. Three months unhindered it only killed 58 people? As for modeling yeah well we have to trust that don't we...Fergsuon predicted more than 10 times the number of actual deaths in Sweden if they didn't lock down.

 

[Eddy Ozark]

Recently a man married to a Thai woman was turned back from Suwarnaphum Airport, after that long flight. He could not enter the country, despite having all papers in order according to the rules set up by a particular Thai embassy in Europe. Something had been miscommunicated. His opinion of this whole thing is not very favorable, and the same applies to many others. The article above is good, it can be summarized thus: The powers to be do not have the guts for making a simple decision. They are waiting for something - they do not really know what. Meanwhile, the damage being done to the country is more or less irretrievable.

[Anna Rak]

18 hours ago, Jumbo1968 said:

Of topic but how do you receive Thai TV in the U.K. .

Thailand T.V. app (Google) on the phone and transfer to a firestick using "apps to fire" and you get all the channels. ????

[Dalewhatdale]

22 hours ago, Bluedan said:

Yes seriously

and others of us us tired of the nonsense you are spouting because you fail to understand the connection. I will try to spell it out in clear English and perhaps you will get it. The comparison relates to the unprecedeted reaction to a public health issue. The other diseases and road accidents are public health issues to which there is often little or no reaction by authorities to mitigate. No one is saying they are all the same...of course they are not but the issue is what government intervention exists in relation to these other large health issues. For example in Thailand nothing absolutely nothing is done to stop the road deaths which per day equal the total coronavirus death toll. But you dismiss this as irrelevant. The health system here and other have not been brought to their knees, far from it...yes some have e.g. New York and theres plenty of evidence that was due to defunding and neglect. You can claim thats because of the lockdown in which case you may wish to explain what happened for the 2 or 3 months when the virus was here before the lockdown and other measures were implemented. 

Your reply is not only clueless but proud of it.

 

What on earth are you talking about, "unprecedented reaction"? Of course this deserves to get an "unprecedented reaction". It's by far the most serious pandemic the world has seen in 100 years.

 

I'm talking about public health response, and the very real hundreds of thousands of hospital admissions and thousands of deaths that happen in a very short period of time if the virus takes a foothold in a region and overwhelms the healthcare system. I put it in bold so that perhaps you will get it.

 

And it's not just deaths directly related to SARS-CoV-2 infection, it's also those not counted as such due to lack of diagnostic capability at the peak of the wave, as well as many thousands indirectly related to it (look up the excess deaths during the 1st wave in spring in several European countries), due to that fact that healthcare systems get overwhelmed and thousands of crucial consultations and diagnostic procedures for other potentially fatal diseases like cancer get delayed for weeks if not months.

 

Again, none of that happens with road deaths, so to even bring it into this discussion is absolutely pointless. Even if it were relevant, which it just isn't, not even remotely, whataboutism never solved any problem, and never will. It's just an easy way out of a discussion.

 

The fact that it hasn't happened in Thailand, or anywhere, shouldn't be a reason for complacency, quite the opposite. There's a lot we still don't understand about this virus and how and why it has hit so much harder in some places than others, but one thing's for sure: if you get overconfident, your chances of getting overrun by this mother increase exponentially.

Edited October 8, 2020 by Dalewhatdale

[Bluedan]

38 minutes ago, Dalewhatdale said:

Your reply is not only clueless but proud of it.

 

What on earth are you talking about, "unprecedented reaction"? Of course this deserves to get an "unprecedented reaction". It's by far the most serious pandemic the world has seen in 100 years.

 

I'm talking about public health response, and the very real hundreds of thousands of hospital admissions and thousands of deaths that happen in a very short period of time if the virus takes a foothold in a region and overwhelms the healthcare system. I put it in bold so that perhaps you will get it.

 

And it's not just deaths directly related to SARS-CoV-2 infection, it's also those not counted as such due to lack of diagnostic capability at the peak of the wave, as well as many thousands indirectly related to it (look up the excess deaths during the 1st wave in spring in several European countries), due to that fact that healthcare systems get overwhelmed and thousands of crucial consultations and diagnostic procedures for other potentially fatal diseases like cancer get delayed for weeks if not months.

 

Again, none of that happens with road deaths, so to even bring it into this discussion is absolutely pointless. Even if it were relevant, which it just isn't, not even remotely, whataboutism never solved any problem, and never will. It's just an easy way out of a discussion.

 

The fact that it hasn't happened in Thailand, or anywhere, shouldn't be a reason for complacency, quite the opposite. There's a lot we still don't understand about this virus and how and why it has hit so much harder in some places than others, but one thing's for sure: if you get overconfident, your chances of getting overrun by this mother increase exponentially.

no sir you are clueless and arrogant

 

There have been other far worse pandemics in the past century

ever heard of HIV malaria and others

Just in the case of Flu the Hong Kong Flu in 1968 killed anywhere between 1 and 4 million when the world population was half what it is now and there was no lockdown then

 

The fact that this virus is new or different doesn’t mean we should not compare reactions by government in other public health issues.

 

You didn't answer the question regarding what happened in the 3 months before lockdown because you have no answer and probably no comprehension of the question itself. You would argue real hundreds of thousands of hospital admissions and thousands of deaths that happen in a very short period of time yet it didn’t happen between January and March. Also you have no comment about Sweden where it still hasn’t happened in such magnitude despite not locking down.

 

Apart from New York which has a poor health system can you name any place that has been overwhelmed?

 

The fatal diseases like cancer you have referred to have been deferred due to the panic and reluctance to treat and admit such patients so in effect you are supporting my argument the reaction or over reaction is causing mass collateral damage. Thats apart from suicides and poverty which will translate to many more deaths over time

 

The car accident analogy relates to government response to loss of lives. I cant explain it any simpler you may need some help with this. Its about prevention of death. The point I and others here are making isn’t about hospital beds or overwhelming the health system its about government reaction to reduce deaths. Originally they said flatten the curve well its flat now in most places ( cases i.e. positive PCR tests don't equate to serious illness let alone ICU beds or death) For one issue COVID the most draconian action is taken and for the other Carnage on the roads no action is taken. Death by pathogen or by vehicle is still death. Who are you to decide we can only make the comparison with respect to hospital bed capacity.

 

Edited October 8, 2020 by Bluedan

[Dalewhatdale]

16 minutes ago, Bluedan said:

no sir you are clueless and arrogant

 

There have been other far worse pandemics in the past century

ever heard of HIV malaria and others

Just in the case of Flu the Hong Kong Flu in 1968 killed anywhere between 1 and 4 million when the world population was half what it is now and there was no lockdown then

 

The fact that this virus is new or different doesn’t mean we should not compare reactions by government in other public health issues.

 

You didn't answer the question regarding what happened in the 3 months before lockdown because you have no answer and probably no comprehension of the question itself. You would argue real hundreds of thousands of hospital admissions and thousands of deaths that happen in a very short period of time yet it didn’t happen between January and March. Also you have no comment about Sweden where it still hasn’t happened in such magnitude despite not locking down.

 

Apart from New York which has a poor health system can you name any place that has been overwhelmed?

 

The fatal diseases like cancer you have referred to have been deferred due to the panic and reluctance to that and admit such patients so in effect you are supporting my argument the reaction or over reaction is causing mass collateral damage. Thats apart from suicides and poverty which will translate to many more deaths over time

 

The car accident analogy relates to government response to loss of lives. I cant explain it any simpler you may need some help with this. Its about prevention of death. The point I and others here are making isn’t about hospital beds or overwhelming the health system its about government reaction to reduce deaths. Originally they said flatten the curve welts felt now in most places ( cases i.e. positive PCR tests don't equate to serious illness let alone ICU beds or death) For one issue COVID the most draconian action is taken and for the other Carnage on the roads no action is taken. Death by pathogen or by vehicle is still death. Who are you to decide we can only make the comparison with respect to hospital bed capacity.

 

 

Again, you're doubling down on the whataboutism. Clueless.

 

At any rate, malaria is endemic, not pandemic, and HIV is not considered a pandemic by WHO, and the number of deaths is lower than for COVID adn spread over a much longer period.

As for the 1968 pandemics, the estimated number of deaths worldwide was 1 million (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/1968-pandemic.html). We're already at that point with this one (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/?), and it's very far from over yet.

Even if it magically petered out and the number of deaths stayed around the million mark, that would make it the most serious pandemic in almost half a century. But you seem to think the world has overreacted. Well, it's a good thing you're not in charge of much in the current situation then.

 

You sound very smug about your "what happened in the 3 months before lockdown", question. And you're right, I don't know. Neither do you. What we both know (but you somehow fail to comprehend) is what's happened after, and elsewhere. Countries, if stupid, are free to ignore that at their own risk.

 

Edited October 8, 2020 by Dalewhatdale

[Dalewhatdale]

23 minutes ago, Bluedan said:

 

Apart from New York which has a poor health system can you name any place that has been overwhelmed?

 

 

 

Forgot to address this. Overwhelmed, or close to it (as shown by overstreched capacity of the system, and number of deaths and death rate), apart from NYC?

Take your pick: Lombardy (Italy), Madrid and other regions in Spain, Ile de France (Paris) and other regions in France, Belgium, England and Wales, and so on and so forth.

Edited October 8, 2020 by Dalewhatdale

[Bluedan]

5 minutes ago, Dalewhatdale said:

Again, you're doubling down on the whataboutism. Clueless.

 

At any rate, malaria is endemic, not pandemic, and HIV is not considered a pandemic by WHO, and the number of deaths is lower than for COVID adn spread over a much longer period.

As for the 1968 pandemics, the estimated number of deaths worldwide was 1 million (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/1968-pandemic.html). We're already at that point with this one (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/?), and it's very far from over yet.

Even if it magically petered out and the number of deaths stayed around the million mark, that would make it the most serious pandemic in almost half a century. But you seem to think the world has overreacted. Well, it's a good thing you're not in charge of much in the current situation then.

 

You sound very smug about your "what happened in the 3 months before lockdown", question. And you're right, I don't know. Neither do you. What we both know (but you somehow fail to comprehend) is what's happened after, and elsewhere. Countries, if stupid, are free to ignore that at their own risk.

 

HIV has killed 75 million who cares what they call it

at least you have now halved your assessment of the worst pandemic only in 50 years now.... thanks for the concession 

You assume smugness on my part but the only smugness I see is from you and your haughty tone

I am simply stating facts and asking questions

yes I also don't know what happened before lockdown could be the climate or some kind of immunity 

but I know what happened after..... a shattered economy suicide up 22 % domestic violence and crime are up. There are studies that show a significant uptick in deaths and shorter lives following economic ruin. It isn't economy v lives its lives v lives 

yes its good I'm not in charge better if you were in charge we would be locked down forever safe poor and miserable

[Dalewhatdale]

5 minutes ago, Bluedan said:

HIV has killed 75 million who cares what they call it

at least you have now halved your assessment of the worst pandemic only in 50 years now.... thanks for the concession 

You assume smugness on my part but the only smugness I see is from you and your haughty tone

I am simply stating facts and asking questions

yes I also don't know what happened before lockdown could be the climate or some kind of immunity 

but I know what happened after..... a shattered economy suicide up 22 % domestic violence and crime are up. There are studies that show a significant uptick in deaths and shorter lives following economic ruin. It isn't economy v lives its lives v lives 

yes its good I'm not in charge better if you were in charge we would be locked down forever safe poor and miserable

Lockdown and poverty don't have to be permanent. Death, on the other hand... Again, take your pick.

That false dilemma disappears the moment someone asks you if you'd be ok to die yourself (or members of your family) to keep the economy running. Of  course you wouldn't. But as long as it's others who die...

Edited October 8, 2020 by Dalewhatdale

[Bluedan]

2 minutes ago, Dalewhatdale said:

Lockdown and poverty don't have to be permanent. Death, on the other hand... Again, take your pick.

That false dicotomy disappears the moment someone asks you if you'd be ok to die yourself (or members of your family) to keep the economy running. Of  course you wouldn't. But as long as it's others who die...

pretty permanent for the 2 local unemployed and destitute people who killed themselves last week