Hard truths about travelling to Thailand, right now

[A512]

59 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

You really need a better source for your news.  In the US, over 200k are now dead due to CV19.  The seasonal flu takes between 12k and 65k annually.  No comparison.  And hardly a scam.

better news source like CNN, Fox and MSN. it's unbelievable the mindset of the snowflakes here. I try to be very kind with my fellow humans, come on give me a break.

[Jeffr2]

14 minutes ago, A512 said:

better news source like CNN, Fox and MSN. it's unbelievable the mindset of the snowflakes here. I try to be very kind with my fellow humans, come on give me a break.

You seem to want to make this political.  That's the #1 problem with this.  The virus doesn't care.  Sad you try to deflect the severity of this virus.

[Bluedan]

1 hour ago, Jeffr2 said:

You really need a better source for your news.  In the US, over 200k are now dead due to CV19.  The seasonal flu takes between 12k and 65k annually.  No comparison.  And hardly a scam.

it depends how these stats are collected. There is a difference between dying FROM COVID and WITH Covid. Classification of deaths is not aways a simple thing. Less than 10 % of these 200,000 died with no co-morbidities, i.e. from covid alone. Under express direction from the CDC many deaths have been classified as Covid without even testing for the virus. I wonder if he same is done for flu deaths. Graphs showing annual mortality from respiratory illness are looking similar to other years. in 2018 Flu deaths were around 80,000 in the USA. For arguments sake lets say this pandemic causes triple those deaths, its still small in comparison to other deadly diseases, yet we never have and never do react in this way. If public health is such a priority how about we start with tackling the root causes. Not only does poor diet (particularly sugar) cause many millions of deaths on its own, but its a major contributing factor in the co morbidities for Covid. How about we start educating people and particularly children on the truly catastrophic pandemics of diabetes and obesity. 

so no, the illness is not a scam but the response is a gross overreaction and fails to measure the poor health outcomes from poverty and failure to have serious diseases diagnosed and treated as a result. For example there has been an alarming reduction in rate of cancer screening and diagnosis in the USA. This will surely show up in the future. In Thailand 22% rise in suicides. 

[Jeffr2]

19 minutes ago, Bluedan said:

it depends how these stats are collected. There is a difference between dying FROM COVID and WITH Covid. Classification of deaths is not aways a simple thing. Less than 10 % of these 200,000 died with no co-morbidities, i.e. from covid alone. Under express direction from the CDC many deaths have been classified as Covid without even testing for the virus. I wonder if he same is done for flu deaths. Graphs showing annual mortality from respiratory illness are looking similar to other years. in 2018 Flu deaths were around 80,000 in the USA. For arguments sake lets say this pandemic causes triple those deaths, its still small in comparison to other deadly diseases, yet we never have and never do react in this way. If public health is such a priority how about we start with tackling the root causes. Not only does poor diet (particularly sugar) cause many millions of deaths on its own, but its a major contributing factor in the co morbidities for Covid. How about we start educating people and particularly children on the truly catastrophic pandemics of diabetes and obesity. 

so no, the illness is not a scam but the response is a gross overreaction and fails to measure the poor health outcomes from poverty and failure to have serious diseases diagnosed and treated as a result. For example there has been an alarming reduction in rate of cancer screening and diagnosis in the USA. This will surely show up in the future. In Thailand 22% rise in suicides. 

Understood.  Doing death certificates is a big deal in the US.  It's a legal document.  So, if it says CV19, then that's the cause.  In reality, the numbers are much higher, as all (credible) medical experts say.  Co-morbidities exist in many different causes of death. 

 

Some deaths are classified as CV without tests, but not many.  And a doctor can tell pretty quickly what's going on.

 

You've got your numbers wrong on flu deaths.  But yes, underlying conditions are a big deal.  The healthier you are, the better your chances are for survival.  But in the end, it was CV that got them.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm

[Jeffr2]

Comparing COVID-19 Deaths to Flu Deaths Is like Comparing Apples to Oranges

The former are actual numbers; the latter are inflated statistical estimates

 

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/comparing-covid-19-deaths-to-flu-deaths-is-like-comparing-apples-to-oranges/

 

https://www.contagionlive.com/news/why-comparing-flu-covid-19-severity-not-equivalent

 

Why Comparing Flu and COVID-19 Severity Is Not Equivalent

[Bluedan]

10 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

In reality, the numbers are much higher, as all (credible) medical experts say. 

do you have a source for this? the same may be said of flu...how many died of pneumonia or heart disease triggered by flu? 

[Jeffr2]

21 minutes ago, Bluedan said:

do you have a source for this? the same may be said of flu...how many died of pneumonia or heart disease triggered by flu? 

There are so many sources for this.  Not trying to be rude, but do a Google search and you'll find dozens of articles from reliable sources that lay this out quite well.  Here's but one...

 

https://www.npr.org/2020/06/25/883557639/cdc-says-real-coronavirus-cases-number-might-be-much-higher-than-the-official-on

[Henryford]

45 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Understood.  Doing death certificates is a big deal in the US.  It's a legal document.  So, if it says CV19, then that's the cause.  In reality, the numbers are much higher, as all (credible) medical experts say.  Co-morbidities exist in many different causes of death. 

 

Some deaths are classified as CV without tests, but not many.  And a doctor can tell pretty quickly what's going on.

 

You've got your numbers wrong on flu deaths.  But yes, underlying conditions are a big deal.  The healthier you are, the better your chances are for survival.  But in the end, it was CV that got them.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm

This so called classification of death is one of the big scams. There was a case in the UK recently, a famous comedian died. He was 85, massively overweight with heart trouble. He would almost certainly have died this year anyway but because he tested positive he was classed as a Covid 19 death. The Covid 19 death figures are meaningless.

Edited October 7, 2020 by Henryford

[Bluedan]

10 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

There are so many sources for this.  Not trying to be rude, but do a Google search and you'll find dozens of articles from reliable sources that lay this out quite well.  Here's but one...

 

https://www.npr.org/2020/06/25/883557639/cdc-says-real-coronavirus-cases-number-might-be-much-higher-than-the-official-on

well if thats your source you need to do better (also not trying to be rude )

 

"the actual number of cases is probably 10 times higher than the official count."

"At first, Director Redfield suggested that the surge has a lot to do with more extensive testing for the virus, which is turning up a lot of cases, mostly in young people." 

 

case numbers not deaths, and he admits this is due to increased testing

[Bluedan]

5 minutes ago, Henryford said:

This so called classification of death is one of the big scams. There was a case in the UK recently, a famous comedian died. He was 85, massively overweight with heart trouble. He would almost certainly have died this year anyway but because he tested positive he was classed as a Covid 19 death. The Covid 19 death figures are meaningless.

exactly...now if flu was the final straw in his case would it be classified as a flu death? I think not 

[chilli42]

On 10/5/2020 at 2:28 PM, webfact said:

it has been replaced with an irrational fear to develop a useful, science-based plan to re-open the borders.

This is the problem.  There are no metrics set that would trigger a reopening.  Having said that, Thailand is not the only country with leadership fearful of the political consequences. 

[Jeffr2]

24 minutes ago, Bluedan said:

well if thats your source you need to do better (also not trying to be rude )

 

"the actual number of cases is probably 10 times higher than the official count."

"At first, Director Redfield suggested that the surge has a lot to do with more extensive testing for the virus, which is turning up a lot of cases, mostly in young people." 

 

case numbers not deaths, and he admits this is due to increased testing

NPR is a fine media outlet.  Sad you don't understand that.  What's your source for news?

[RubbaJohnny]

On 10/6/2020 at 5:30 AM, simon43 said:

I'm surprised that those holding Elite visas have not demanded financial compensation.  Imagine buying a visa for 1 million baht and then being refused entry into the country.  Sounds like fraud to me ....

U know miss inderstand thai wai khun simone , sum more Elite than others

[from the home of CC]

16 hours ago, CapeTown said:

It is an appropriate conclusion the author of the piece has drawn from an excellent summary of the current situation.

it's another moronic childish article trying to downplay a worldwide pandemic for selfish reasoning. It's this type of non analytical thinking and behavior that has brought us to a million deaths. Thank Buddha these fools and their western outlooks will have no influence on how this country survives this health crisis. Nobody in their right mind would want to go in the direction the UK/EU or US has gone, especially considering with only 10% of the world infected we are just at the beginning of this. A poll today showed the Thai people have a real fear of foreigners coming here spreading their pox and killing their loved ones and I don't blame them a bit for they've seen these same foreigners cut their own throats over this health crisis..

[Bluedan]

27 minutes ago, from the home of CC said:

it's another moronic childish article trying to downplay a worldwide pandemic for selfish reasoning. It's this type of non analytical thinking and behavior that has brought us to a million deaths. Thank Buddha these fools and their western outlooks will have no influence on how this country survives this health crisis. Nobody in their right mind would want to go in the direction the UK/EU or US has gone, especially considering with only 10% of the world infected we are just at the beginning of this. A poll today showed the Thai people have a real fear of foreigners coming here spreading their pox and killing their loved ones and I don't blame them a bit for they've seen these same foreigners cut their own throats over this health crisis..

yes so selfish isn't for those who are poor hungry depressed as suicidal to show the other side of the coin

 

you say we are just at the beginning of this. Others say the worst has passed but not the worst as a result off the economic and human tragedy which will surely intensify. The economy isn't just money its lives also. So its lives versus lives. Theres nothing selfish about calling for balance.

 

all deaths are tragic but of course an elderly sick person dying with COVID is far worse than a child dying of starvation or a desperate unemployed chef hanging himself as happened last week in Phuket. Wonder how much of that has to do with the fact we are ruled in the main by a bunch of old men who show scant regard for other more serious health epidemics.

[from the home of CC]

1 minute ago, Bluedan said:

yes so selfish isn't for those who are poor hungry depressed as suicidal to show the other side of the coin

 

you say we are just at the beginning of this. Others say the worst has passed but not the worst as a result off the economic and human tragedy which will surely intensify. The economy isn't just money its lives also. So its lives versus lives. Theres nothing selfish about calling for balance.

 

all deaths are tragic but of course an elderly sick person dying with COVID is far worse than a child dying of starvation or a desperate unemployed chef hanging himself as happened last week in Phuket. Wonder how much of that has to do with the fact we are ruled in the main by a bunch of old men who show scant regard for other more serious health epidemics.

the world is suffering economically, every country is hurting. Why in the hell would you want to put a whole population at risk for this 'balance' that doesn't exist. The west attempted this and the results are horrific, why would Thailand want to implement such a failed strategy?  The businesses opened up to make money and the only ones that profited were the undertakers. Then they had to shut again which cost even more money in the long run. Hoe many times are these stupid people going to run head on into a stone wall? People need to quit acting like children and grow a pair, it's going to be tough but making it tougher by infecting everyone isn't the answer. Keep the door closed Thailand, you cannot trust those who are selfishly looking out for their own interests only and in reality wouldn't give a damn how many Thais got sick..

[Bluedan]

11 minutes ago, from the home of CC said:

the world is suffering economically, every country is hurting. Why in the hell would you want to put a whole population at risk for this 'balance' that doesn't exist. The west attempted this and the results are horrific, why would Thailand want to implement such a failed strategy?  The businesses opened up to make money and the only ones that profited were the undertakers. Then they had to shut again which cost even more money in the long run. Hoe many times are these stupid people going to run head on into a stone wall? People need to quit acting like children and grow a pair, it's going to be tough but making it tougher by infecting everyone isn't the answer. Keep the door closed Thailand, you cannot trust those who are selfishly looking out for their own interests only and in reality wouldn't give a damn how many Thais got sick..

Sweden is doing just fine. How is that a failed strategy? Less deaths per million that Spain and UK who had massive hard lockdowns all based on Neil Ferguson's grossly incorrect predictions.

The balance does exist. You can't ignore the consequences of these policies. In the case of Europe cases are rising as testing has increased 10 fold. But miraculously deaths and ICU hospitalizations are minimal. But no worries keep your head in the sand.

 

[GroveHillWanderer]

On 10/6/2020 at 4:46 AM, meechai said:

That may come soon after a vaccine for Common Cold because.........as also stated above.......

 

"the history of successful coronavirus vaccines is not good. In fact there has never been a workable vaccine for any of the five other coronaviruses."

That's a very misleading point, on a number of levels.

 

Firstly, they're aren't five other coronaviruses, there are six - the four that cause symptoms of the common cold, plus MERS and SARS-CoV-1.

 

But the main reason it's misleading is that it ignores the fact that there's never been sufficient reason or time to create a vaccine for these other coronaviruses.

 

With the four "common cold" coronaviruses, it wouldn't make much sense to create vaccines. Firstly you'd (probably) need four of them but even if you could find one that worked for all of them you'd still only be helping with around 20% of colds. If you were going to target any family of viruses to try and prevent colds it would be the rhinoviruses since they account for up to 40% of cases. Even then you'd only be solving less than half of the problem. Finally, colds kill virtually nobody so it's not a really pressing need.

 

It's also not quite the case that there's never been a "workable" vaccine for any of them (depending on what you mean by "workable").

 

Vaccines were developed for the first SARS coronavirus but it disappeared before they could finish clinical trials and the money dried up. Quite understandably, no-one was willing to spend billions of dollars to finalise a vaccine for a virus that no longer exists in the wild.

 

As for for MERS, vaccines have also been developed and one is undergoing human trials in Saudi Arabia at the moment. However not such a great amount of effort and money has been put into it, probably because MERS kills less than 200 people per year.

 

This coronavirus has over 200 different groups working on vaccines and most of them are working flat out and receiving massive amounts of money to work full time on the effort.

 

If similar resources had been put into any of the other coronaviruses we almost certainly would have had a vaccine by now but there was never sufficient impetus for that to happen.

Edited October 7, 2020 by GroveHillWanderer

[sydneyjed]

On 10/6/2020 at 4:52 PM, Moo 2 said:

Tourism is no different to any other businesses. I f you run a shop and the sign says you are open

seven days a week and you don't stick to it, people will start going somewhere else and might even

like the other shop and never comeback to your shop. That's what Thailand is facing at the moment.

There are many exotic places in the world to chose from for all sort of people.

Well there are Moo..but most of them are in deep sh.t too given the spread of this horrible pandemic.Having been in tourism myself(medical)I can vouch for that and when one of the biggest tourism operators in the world(Flight Center)are closing another ninety agencies having already flicked thousands of good honest hard working staff I fear for the industry to ever get back to the same level that we were once accustomed to!Concerning higher outbreaks in the UK,France,Spain,Israel don't exactly bode well for confidence at the moment(add Indonesia)..so TAT and other Government operators with vested interests attempting to kick start 'their'economies are as we know living in 'dreamland'..IT AIN'T HAPPENING ANYTIME SOON..That's because of the airlines for starters..Stay Safe!

[androokery]

1 hour ago, Bluedan said:

Sweden is doing just fine. How is that a failed strategy? Less deaths per million that Spain and UK who had massive hard lockdowns all based on Neil Ferguson's grossly incorrect predictions.

The balance does exist. You can't ignore the consequences of these policies. In the case of Europe cases are rising as testing has increased 10 fold. But miraculously deaths and ICU hospitalizations are minimal. But no worries keep your head in the sand.

 

Just to add to the story:

There are plenty of foreign tourists walking around Stockholm. Not London or Phuket volumes obviously, but enough to be noticeable. 

[sydneyjed]

1 hour ago, androokery said:

Just to add to the story:

There are plenty of foreign tourists walking around Stockholm. Not London or Phuket volumes obviously, but enough to be noticeable. 

Comparing apples and oranges!Just because one country can claim that its ground breaking 'Herd Mentality'was the answer really doesn't matter to the poor bas.ards locked down everywhere else or recovering from it!.That horrible wanky saying 'It is what it is' basically means more than half the worlds in deep sh.t either economically or socially and Stockholm is the last thing on their mind to be honest!

[metisdead]

A post using content from an unapproved YouTube source has been removed as well as the replies:

 

18) Social Media content is not to be used as  source material unless it is from a recognized or approved news media source,  the source of any such material (Twitter, Facebook, YouTube  etc.) should always be shown.

 

Posts bickering about news sources have been removed.

 

Some inflammatory posts have been removed. 

[androokery]

37 minutes ago, sydneyjed said:

Comparing apples and oranges!Just because one country can claim that its ground breaking 'Herd Mentality'was the answer really doesn't matter to the poor bas.ards locked down everywhere else or recovering from it!.That horrible wanky saying 'It is what it is' basically means more than half the worlds in deep sh.t either economically or socially and Stockholm is the last thing on their mind to be honest!

Comparing? I compared the volume of tourists in Stockholm to London and Phuket. That's actually equivalent to comparing apples to apples. Then you went off on a tangent. What I implied, but did not state outright, was more along the lines of "we fear what we don't know". We make a lot of assumptions about other places and since we don't know the details we fill that gap with fear. Sweden's strategy during this pandemic has been used as both a precautionary tale and something to aspire to, depending on when it was discussed and by whom. I just tried to shed some light on the situation on the ground. If your user name is an indication, you may geographically be almost as far removed from Stockholm as is possible on this planet. 

I'm guessing "wanky" is not an offensive term where you come from. 

Edited October 7, 2020 by androokery

[Bluedan]

1 minute ago, androokery said:

Comparing? I compared the volume of tourists in Stockholm to London and Phuket. That's actually equivalent to comparing apples to apples. Then you went off on a tangent. What I implied, but did not state outright, was more along the lines of "we fear what we don't know". We make a lot of assumptions about other places and since we don't know the details we fill that gap with fear. Sweden's strategy during this pandemic has been used as both a precautionary tale and something to aspire to, depending on when it was discussed and by whom. I just tried to shed some light on the situation on the ground. If your user name is an indication, you may geographically be almost as far removed from Stockholm as is possible on this planet. 

I'm guessing "wanky" is not an offensive term where you come from. 

its good you managed to interpret his post ...I couldn't 

[from the home of CC]

3 hours ago, Bluedan said:

Sweden is doing just fine. How is that a failed strategy? Less deaths per million that Spain and UK who had massive hard lockdowns all based on Neil Ferguson's grossly incorrect predictions.

The balance does exist. You can't ignore the consequences of these policies. In the case of Europe cases are rising as testing has increased 10 fold. But miraculously deaths and ICU hospitalizations are minimal. But no worries keep your head in the sand.

 

there were large numbers of unauthorized euthanasia (and I'm being diplomatic here) with of care home residents that occurred which in my opinion doesn't qualify for bragging rights, personally I'd be ashamed. If the US would of employed the swedish model there may have been more than a million dead according to many health experts, I'm just thankful they weren't that stupid. There's going to be some very uncomfortable inquests when the dust settles on this one and sweden will certainly have their share.

Actually, I'm not worried at all for the Thais have made very few missteps compared to the west and I have no plans of leaving here till all the poxed up west is vaccinated..

[Bluedan]

6 minutes ago, from the home of CC said:

there were large numbers of unauthorized euthanasia (and I'm being diplomatic here) with of care home residents that occurred which in my opinion doesn't qualify for bragging rights, personally I'd be ashamed. If the US would of employed the swedish model there may have been more than a million dead according to many health experts, I'm just thankful they weren't that stupid. There's going to be some very uncomfortable inquests when the dust settles on this one and sweden will certainly have their share.

Actually, I'm not worried at all for the Thais have made very few missteps compared to the west and I have no plans of leaving here till all the poxed up west is vaccinated..

Sweden made a mistake with aged care and Tegnell has admitted and apologized for that...same as many other countries including UK US and Australia

that doesn't make it Euthanasia ...thats just a lie 

UK did lock down

Spain did lock down

their deaths per million of population were higher than Swedens 

[Dalewhatdale]

On 10/6/2020 at 12:14 AM, Grumpy John said:

I read the other day 38 have died this year because of dengue fever with 60.000 effected.  Many thousands die on the roads each year and little is done to curb that.  The flu takes many many people each year.  People die from diabetes, cancer, lung disease, suicide.  So,  to those in power and to us normal people death is an everyday thing, it happens everyday for whatever reason yet the Wuhan China virus is being treated differently.  Why?  Is it a power game?  Prayuths much loved emergency decrees seem to be coming every month on a regular basis now.  Honestly I am finding it hard to understand how they can destroy the economy and effect many millions when only 59 have died.

Seriously?

Are we still droning on about cancer, road accidents and stuff like that? Have you people not learned anything?

 

None of the causes of death you mention results in an increase in hospitalisations and ICU admissions so sharp as to bring entire health systems to their knees and on the brink of collapse (see Lombardy, NYC, Madrid and a few others).

 

How hard is that to understand? It's really mindboggling that some people are (or pretend to be) still unaware of this simple fact.

Stop with that nonsense.

Edited October 7, 2020 by Dalewhatdale

[3NUMBAS]

overhanging beer bellys are a rare sight now

[RocketDog]

10 hours ago, Artisi said:

And don't forget to sympathise for the many thousands of Thais now out of work resulting from events completely out if their control, but as long as you're OK - that's all that matters. 

Thanks so much for your approval of my attitude. You can't guess how much that means to me. Or maybe you can. 

[Bluedan]

40 minutes ago, Dalewhatdale said:

Seriously?

Are we still droning on about cancer, road accidents and stuff like that? Have you people not learned anything?

 

None of the causes of death you mention results in an increase in hospitalisations and ICU admissions so sharp as to bring entire health systems to their knees and on the brink of collapse (see Lombardy, NYC, Madrid and a few others).

 

How hard is that to understand? It's really mindboggling that some people are (or pretend to be) still unaware of this simple fact.

Stop with that nonsense.

Yes seriously

and others of us us tired of the nonsense you are spouting because you fail to understand the connection. I will try to spell it out in clear English and perhaps you will get it. The comparison relates to the unprecedeted reaction to a public health issue. The other diseases and road accidents are public health issues to which there is often little or no reaction by authorities to mitigate. No one is saying they are all the same...of course they are not but the issue is what government intervention exists in relation to these other large health issues. For example in Thailand nothing absolutely nothing is done to stop the road deaths which per day equal the total coronavirus death toll. But you dismiss this as irrelevant. The health system here and other have not been brought to their knees, far from it...yes some have e.g. New York and theres plenty of evidence that was due to defunding and neglect. You can claim thats because of the lockdown in which case you may wish to explain what happened for the 2 or 3 months when the virus was here before the lockdown and other measures were implemented.