Make Thailand a "hub" for digital nomads, suggests influential Thai politician

[bkkcanuck8]

16 minutes ago, robblok said:

Why get tax out of them, do they get tax out of you ? 

And there will likely be more of them.  My old company polled it's staff and more than 80% have chosen to continue working remotely - so the company has merged two office towers into one tower (one with a longer lease) and will close one of the office towers in the core of the city. (not sure about the 3rd one that is on the outskirts).

Edited October 15, 2020 by bkkcanuck8

[robblok]

Just now, bkkcanuck8 said:

And there will likely be more of them.  My old company polled it's staff and more than 80% have chosen to continue working remotely - so the company has merged two office towers into one tower (one with a longer lease) and will close one of the office towers in the core of the city. (not sure about the 3rd one that is on the outskirts).

If they pay tax back home then no problem else pay in Thailand. But these guys would be more desireable then pensioners. Less entitled opinionated people. Also better educations (in general).

 

Would be a boon for Thailand they would be spending more then most pensioners (not all but loads of them living on really low pensions). Would be a smart move for Thailand get more long term tourists and if they can prove they work for clients in an other country not taking money from Thais its a win win.

 

Many of my clients could be digital nomads as all they need is a computer. The average one makes a lot more then most pensioners. 

[Misty]

17 minutes ago, robblok said:

If they pay tax back home then no problem else pay in Thailand. But these guys would be more desireable then pensioners. Less entitled opinionated people. Also better educations (in general).

 

 

If they live in Thailand, using its tax funded services, it would make sense to first pay tax in Thailand, and then under double-taxation agreement use the Thai tax paid as a foreign tax credit against any tax they may owe elsewhere

[Poet]

Digital nomads are simply a form of tourist.

There have been, for centuries, people who work while traveling. The Internet has simply allowed more people to do so. The numbers were already growing but the new "Work from Home" policies will massively accelerate that trend once travel opens up again.

Digital nomads do not need a special visa, or work permits, or special rights. They only need sane Tourist visa policies. Prior to the coup, Chiang Mai was widely recognized as the leading hub for digital nomads. This was achieved with zero effort or, even, awareness on the part of the government. It was simply a nice place to stay, with good Internet, and you could easily stay for 8 or 9 months on one cheap visa and no paperwork.

While all the government hub announcements came to nothing, this actual, real hub that fell into their laps and, until the junta flushed it down the toilet, was primed to keep growing.

I have noticed that every time digital nomads or Bitcoin are mentioned on this forum, the same relatively small group of bitter pensioners go into overdrive. I don't know if it is true that there are hordes penniless guys claiming to be digital nomads, but my experience has been that most people with actual skills (coding, writing, graphic design, editing, marketing, trading, selling etc) have done very well, usually making significantly more than they would make in regular jobs in America.

Thailand has always been about mass tourism. The current nationalistic fever that has seized the country (literally) may have wild fantasies about five-star Indians, but the reality for a country this size is that they need to target every form of tourist. Every Westerner who spends time in Thailand adds something to the bottom line. None of them are "sponging" off Thailand. Thailand needs as many of them as it can get.

Again, the distinction between digital nomads and other long-stay tourists is meaningless. A country either wants the money they collectively spend or it does not. It does not matter if someone is spending their day watching Netflix or emailing clients in Zürich, what matters is that they are paying rent, supporting local businesses, and pumping foreign currency into Thailand.

The Thai tourist industry is not going to return to its 2019 levels anytime this decade. Until it does recover, a smart move would be to introduce a one-year visa waiver to lower the barrier to entry for any Westerner willing to fly to a Thai airport: vacationers, snowbirds, Thai language students, remote workers etc.

[robblok]

21 minutes ago, Misty said:

If they live in Thailand, using its tax funded services, it would make sense to first pay tax in Thailand, and then under double-taxation agreement use the Thai tax paid as a foreign tax credit against any tax they may owe elsewhere

How is that different from pensioners ? They don't pay tax here they pay it back in their home country ?

 

But its complicated so whatever is decided as long as they pay tax somewhere.

[tomauasia]

Old old idea by another donasour who obviously has been in deep sleep for the last 6 years. What's needed is a real gov. Not Chiniese owned.

[LivinLOS]

8 hours ago, Albert Zweistein said:

They could hold a deposit against taxation for min wage for the duration of the visa. Hahahahahahahahaha.

I know multiple people giving 30 - 35% of total turnover, for the services of an umbrella company to provide work permit and visa. 

This would be a clear win for that sector, many do want to get legal and are willing to pay 10 - 20k a month to do so. 

[DrTuner]

5 hours ago, Misty said:

If they live in Thailand, using its tax funded services, it would make sense to first pay tax in Thailand, and then under double-taxation agreement use the Thai tax paid as a foreign tax credit against any tax they may owe elsewhere

It might be more efficient for Thailand to start enforcing the taxation of it's own citizens first, though. I doubt many somtam cart sellers pay anything to the pot. The whole system of government in Thailand is in dire need of modernizing, including immigration and work permits.

[grumpy 4680]

     I cannot understand why Thailand wants to be the HUB of everything, I can understand they desperately want the money, But it would be better if they got the things they have here to work first.

[Misty]

6 hours ago, robblok said:

How is that different from pensioners ? They don't pay tax here they pay it back in their home country ?

 

But its complicated so whatever is decided as long as they pay tax somewhere.

I've observed the tax rules on earned (salary) income versus investment and perhaps pension income work differently.   The tax jurisdiction the salary income is earned in (in this case Thailand) generally seems to have first dibs (or some technical term) on taxing it.  I'm not a tax professional, so perhaps one can jump in to clarify this point.

[Misty]

1 hour ago, DrTuner said:

It might be more efficient for Thailand to start enforcing the taxation of it's own citizens first, though. I doubt many somtam cart sellers pay anything to the pot. The whole system of government in Thailand is in dire need of modernizing, including immigration and work permits.

 

I'd agree with that. TDRI's "regulatory guillotine," which was supposed to cut or simplify existing regulations starting with visa & work permit rules, was sorely needed.  Yet it seems to have died the predictable death already. Meanwhile Thailand seems to be far behind other SE Asian countries in this area.  Meanwhile are wealthy Thais paying their share of the tax burden?

 

However, I'd wonder if somtam cart sellers earn more per year than the minimum threshhold to have to pay tax.  They'd need to earn something like Bt150k+Bt60k+Bt15k = Bt225k per year or Bt18,750 per month.  That would be one successful somtam cart!

[jayhon73]

Several people in the post have said that remote workers are living on 20k thb a month or they are dropout losers.

 

I've lived in different parts of Asia for 6 years, and quite a bit was in Thailand. My online work was generating around $6,000 USD, and I was not living cheap while there. Also kept full health insurance, etc.

 

My guess is there are plenty of people earning that, and now after the pandemic, even more. Like full salaries of $85,000 or more, that are willing to live abroad.

 

So, I do think Thailand providing some type of 'Nomad' visa could be a good thing.

[kingofthemountain]

1 hour ago, grumpy 4680 said:

I cannot understand why Thailand wants to be the HUB of everything,

it's because you are not Thai

if you was, you will know already that Thailand is the center of the universe

and the best country at almost everything on the whole earth planet

[Dart12]

2 hours ago, kingofthemountain said:

it's because you are not Thai

if you was, you will know already that Thailand is the center of the universe

and the best country at almost everything on the whole earth planet

that's pretty much how every country indoctrinates their youth

[CapeTown]

This is the kind of practical and imaginative thinking we would expect from a new political party joining Thailand's representative democratic system.

Great news.

[fdsa]

5 hours ago, DrTuner said:

I doubt many somtam cart sellers pay anything to the pot.

I doubt somtam cart sellers should pay anything at all, same as everyone else who make less then one or two thousands USD monthly.

[Neeranam]

On 10/14/2020 at 12:31 PM, Justgrazing said:

alas Thailand I fear you haven't done your research if you think digital travelling folk are big spenders

right The ones I know are teaching Chinese 3 year olds, getting 500 baht an hour. 

[Neeranam]

10 hours ago, robblok said:

If they pay tax back home then no problem else pay in Thailand. But these guys would be more desireable then pensioners. Less entitled opinionated people. Also better educations (in general).

 

Would be a boon for Thailand they would be spending more then most pensioners (not all but loads of them living on really low pensions). Would be a smart move for Thailand get more long term tourists and if they can prove they work for clients in an other country not taking money from Thais its a win win.

 

Many of my clients could be digital nomads as all they need is a computer. The average one makes a lot more then most pensioners. 

What have you got against pensioners? You will be one one day.

 

Some of friends are old and spend lots here. 

[kingofthemountain]

1 hour ago, Dart12 said:

that's pretty much how every country indoctrinates their youth

Let me correct you

 

that's pretty much how every autocratic country with an archaic

feodal system indoctrinates their youth

 

i don't know from where you are, but i am from France where the

education system is pretty well balanced (Even if it's far from being perfect)

where you learn about the good and bad sides of France, in the history and actually

you learn about the world and also to think by yourself, including out of the box.

 

From my knowledge most of the europeans countries are in the same boat

[kingofthemountain]

35 minutes ago, fdsa said:

I doubt somtam cart sellers should pay anything at all, same as everyone else who make less then one or two thousands USD monthly.

They pay an annual commercial license

i don't know the exact amount nowadays but few years ago

it was very pretty low, around 1000 bahts for the entire year.

 

After that it's up to the seller and is luck if he makes 5000 or 500 000\year

he has no more taxes to pay.

[robblok]

1 hour ago, Neeranam said:

What have you got against pensioners? You will be one one day.

 

Some of friends are old and spend lots here. 

Like you said some, and its more that pensioners hate digital nomads then the other way around. While most real digital nomads would spend more then the average then pensioners.

 

I don't have a thing against them its more that pensioners often throw a hissy fit when digital nomads are mentioned.

[kingofthemountain]

8 minutes ago, robblok said:

Like you said some, and its more that pensioners hate digital nomads then the other way around. While most real digital nomads would spend more then the average then pensioners.

 

I don't have a thing against them its more that pensioners often throw a hissy fit when digital nomads are mentioned.

Usualy pensioners don't care too much about the digital nomads

as it's pretty rare they were in the same place at the same time

however since few months, an handfull of clows are everywhere

h24 doing videos, particularly about Pattaya and particularly about

the red light district because it gives them more audience on you tube

and pensioners don't like too much having their faces (And the rest)

exposed without their consent all over the world (And at the face of their friends and

family at home) when they do nasty things with young bargirls or ladyboys. 

 

An old saying is ''what happens in Thailand stay in Thailand''

the so called digital nomads (Or at least few of them) have broken the golden rule

no wonder they are not really apreciated as a lot

[robblok]

44 minutes ago, kingofthemountain said:

Usualy pensioners don't care too much about the digital nomads

as it's pretty rare they were in the same place at the same time

however since few months, an handfull of clows are everywhere

h24 doing videos, particularly about Pattaya and particularly about

the red light district because it gives them more audience on you tube

and pensioners don't like too much having their faces (And the rest)

exposed without their consent all over the world (And at the face of their friends and

family at home) when they do nasty things with young bargirls or ladyboys. 

 

An old saying is ''what happens in Thailand stay in Thailand''

the so called digital nomads (Or at least few of them) have broken the golden rule

no wonder they are not really apreciated as a lot

That is not the kind of digital nomads i talk about. I am talking about IT guys doing scripting design and stuff like that. Not those guys that put vids online. My clients are the kind that not vids.

 

Privacy is privacy. 

Edited October 15, 2020 by robblok

[Poet]

Many members here are confused about what a digital nomad is.

If you spend a lot of time on YouTube you are going to see a lot of YouTubers claiming to be digital nomads.

If you live in budget accommodation and drink in dive bars, you are going to come across a lot of fantasists who have latched onto the term "digital nomad" to give themselves yet another excuse for their lack of progress in life. It is no difference from the way in which most English guys you meet in Pattaya claim to have been in the SAS.

The idea that online English teachers are digital nomads is seriously stretching the concept. Even so, I don't see what the problem is if some talentless dropout is earning 500 baht an hour, 4000 baht a day, teaching Chinese 3 year olds. They are doing something that a Thai could not do and are presumably spending that money locally, supporting Thai businesses and Thai jobs.

Such teachers are essentially zero-hour employees and I would class them as remote workers. Most will eventually drift back to jobs in their own countries.

By my definition, a digital nomad is someone who treats his career as a business and focuses on becoming extremely skilled within a particular niche. He may work for clients but his focus is primarily entrepreneurial. Whereas pretty much any English speaker can become a teacher, and the pay reflects that, a digital nomad must be sufficiently skilled at something that people are willing to pay more for, and the amount he earns should increase as those skills improve and his reputation grows.

So, for example, by the time someone finishes high school, they might have already developed good writing skills and can start earning money from that almost immediately. Alternatively, they might decide that coding offers better prospects in the long run, so, they might spend 3 months working hard to get their skills up to the level at which they can start charging for it. A good rule of thumb for any digital nomad is that you should be making around $50 per hour in your first year or so, but if you cannot reach $100 per hour after about two years it probably won't be sustainable in the long term.

It is almost impossible for a native English speaker with focus and intelligence to not earn at least $100 per hour after two years of sustained effort. There are a lot of intelligent people but not so many with focus. If you are smart but unable to focus, you should probably be an employee and allow someone else to direct your focus.

As anyone who runs a business knows, earning $100 an hour does not mean you get to spend it. You re-invest as much money as you can so that you have more options as you progress. It is very difficult for people who have been employees all their lives and no live on pensions to understand this. From their point of view, if they were earning $1000 per day, it would be party time. So, when they come across guys who claim be earning good money but living simply, it is natural to presume they are lying.
 
 

[Cranky]

7 hours ago, Misty said:

 

I'd agree with that. TDRI's "regulatory guillotine," which was supposed to cut or simplify existing regulations starting with visa & work permit rules, was sorely needed.  Yet it seems to have died the predictable death already. Meanwhile Thailand seems to be far behind other SE Asian countries in this area.  Meanwhile are wealthy Thais paying their share of the tax burden?

 

However, I'd wonder if somtam cart sellers earn more per year than the minimum threshhold to have to pay tax.  They'd need to earn something like Bt150k+Bt60k+Bt15k = Bt225k per year or Bt18,750 per month.  That would be one successful somtam cart!

Are you kidding? Even the quietest food sellers knock out at least a grand a day up to 10s of thousands.  Ever seen the stalls on Cowboy at office kicking out time? Or Wireless Road - good luck getting a seat at lunch time  Hundreds of plates of nosh shifted between 5-8 to office girls finishing for the day and the girlies clocking on.  Almost every 711 has a few very profitable stalls, (dogs are happy) I know a chicken BBQ stand that flogs at least 30 chickens a day before lunchtime at a profit of 100b a go.  

 

Beautiful business model, sell all you prepare then go home, next to no overheads - taxes paid in full to the BIB of course... 

[CraigInBangkok]

On 10/14/2020 at 6:17 PM, LivinLOS said:

There is logic though. 

 

Thailand is less concerned with income tax than it is the creation of domestic industry and investment and knowledge transfer. This is why the need to incorporate, have a registered office, employ and train thais etc has always been a large part of the requirements to enable the legal engagement per non Thai employee.. 

It is loosening up, the BOI and smart visas etc have much less of this but that is the historical nature of the system. 

I still dont really see the logic. I dont want to start a company and wasted lots of time trying to pass knowledge in 9 years at my previous job here. Out of the many people i tried to share my knowledge with, i only ever had 2 that really wanted to learn. Now it would be nice just to make some extra money for wife and myself and i could get plenty of international customers so i wouldnt even be taking anyone heres money and happy to pay taxes. When i gave up my job here i changed visa to marriage and had to state the reason "to support my thai wife". How can i do that without entering back into their nightmare management system where no one ever listens?

[kingofthemountain]

44 minutes ago, robblok said:

That is not the kind of digital nomads i talk about. I am talking about IT guys doing scripting design and stuff like that. Not those guys that put vids online. My clients are the kind that not vids.

 

Privacy is privacy. 

I totally agree with you and i know the most visible are not the majority

however i am sure you understand for most of the pensioners

they don't really make the difference between the 2 sorts of digital nomads

it seems that the Thai authorities have the same approach

it's probably a generation gap thing

[DrTuner]

54 minutes ago, Poet said:

By my definition, a digital nomad is someone who treats his career as a business and focuses on becoming extremely skilled within a particular niche. He may work for clients but his focus is primarily entrepreneurial. Whereas pretty much any English speaker can become a teacher, and the pay reflects that, a digital nomad must be sufficiently skilled at something that people are willing to pay more for, and the amount he earns should increase as those skills improve and his reputation grows.

A modern day mercenary.

[pedro01]

My advice to fellow digital nomads. 

 

Stay below the radar. 

[Poet]

2 hours ago, DrTuner said:

3 hours ago, Poet said:

By my definition, a digital nomad is someone who treats his career as a business and focuses on becoming extremely skilled within a particular niche. He may work for clients but his focus is primarily entrepreneurial. Whereas pretty much any English speaker can become a teacher, and the pay reflects that, a digital nomad must be sufficiently skilled at something that people are willing to pay more for, and the amount he earns should increase as those skills improve and his reputation grows.

A modern day mercenary.

In one way or another, we all sell our time. There is nothing mercenary about wanting to capture more of the value you create for your family, rather than some boss. In fact, if it incentivizes people to become better at what they do, at creating more value each day, that is good for everyone.

People are sometimes shocked by what I charge for copywriting. They ask how I can justify charging $90 for a 400-word article (the length of this post) when some kid in India will do it for $5. Most businesses probably should hire the Indian. For some, however, communicating what they do, as clearly and as persuasively as possible, is the difference between dominating their niche or becoming an also-ran. I help sometimes very small companies with good ideas to beat larger companies with massive marketing budgets.

For my clients, what I do is worth more than I charge. If I was not available, that part of their operation would be less effective, resulting in fewer sales. By being ruthlessly good at what I do, I serve my clients, I serve their customers, and I serve the economy as a whole. All of us should strive to be as skilled as we can possibly be, to wake up each day and create real value for others. For that we should be rewarded and afforded healthy, comfortable, enjoyable, empowered lives for ourselves and those we love.

I have seen too many people end up in serious trouble, even dying, because they presumed that their needs would somehow always be met by others. I have seen many discover, too late, that shared illusions such as the National Health Service do not actually have the resources to provide the best possible treatment, or that local councils cannot provide the level of care necessary for them to maintain their dignity into old age.

There is nothing mercenary about understanding the importance of both creating and capturing value. The productive period in our lives is far shorter than the young ever understand. We all need to take charge and ensure that we can amply afford to meet our needs. The future is going to be expensive.

 

Edited October 15, 2020 by Poet