Brexit brinkmanship: Johnson says prepare for no-deal, cancels trade talks

[sandyf]

21 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Do you have any source for this? Or is it just a guess?

 

Because as far as I know, there are no figures available on the financial cost or financial gains of Brexit, since we haven't even left the withdrawal period yet. How can anyone know the cost of something that hasn't happened yet (yes I know we have officially left but the process of leaving, changing processes, signing all of the new trade deals etc. is not yet complete). A true assessment of the costs or gains could be made in around 10 years from now. Right now we are investing in ourselves, and the benefits will be seen later down the line.

 

It's like setting up a shop, spending all that money on stock, training, decorating, licencing etc. and then at the end of the first day's trading you declare the project a failure because you have spent a million Baht and only sold 50,000 Baht worth of goods. Patience Dragonfly, the benefits won't all be seen on January 1st 2021.

What part of this statement did you find difficult:

"the government are very reluctant to say what brexit has already cost the nation."

 

Your comparison is delusional, business plans are based on known profit margins, brexit was based on the unknown.

The years have proved how unrealistic the unknown actually was and the plan will become an albatross around the neck of future generations.

[sandyf]

10 minutes ago, kingdong said:

Due to the misuse of the human rights act hope it do,es go.

Nothing like throwing a hand grenade into the fire.

From the Belfast Agreement, but of course to the brexiteer, rewriting it would be the easiest thing in history.

 

(b) the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) and any Bill of
Rights for Northern Ireland supplementing it, which neither the Assembly
nor public bodies can infringe, together with a Human Rights
Commission;
(c) arrangements to provide that key decisions and legislation are proofed
to ensure that they do not infringe the ECHR and any Bill of Rights for
Northern Ireland;

[JonnyF]

2 hours ago, sandyf said:

What part of this statement did you find difficult:

"the government are very reluctant to say what brexit has already cost the nation."

 

Your comparison is delusional, business plans are based on known profit margins, brexit was based on the unknown.

The years have proved how unrealistic the unknown actually was and the plan will become an albatross around the neck of future generations.

Thought so. No source. Just your biased opinion.  

 

Thanks for confirming what I already knew.

[Tofer]

17 hours ago, david555 said:

As lately they started with changing laws and shortcutted judges power ....mr Tofer ....google could explain you that ...

1 example ... more to find ...you really think E.U. (even you dont like..) just start something anyhow ?

Hungarian prime minister Viktor Orban investigated over €2m EU funding spent on 'absurd' vintage train line (telegraph.co.uk)

 

Sorry, I'm not being critical of your command of the English language as you're obvious not of English origin. But I cannot make any sense of your post, therefore I have no comment.

[Tofer]

19 hours ago, placeholder said:

You don't seem very concerned about the suppression of human rights including democracy in those 2 nations.

 

I thought that was a consideration for the EU court of Human Rights, not the EUCJ, as you quite rightly previously pointed out when I got the 2 confused.

[placeholder]

5 minutes ago, Tofer said:

 

I thought that was a consideration for the EU court of Human Rights, not the EUCJ, as you quite rightly previously pointed out when I got the 2 confused.

That wasn't me. But I don't see what jurisdiction has to do with supporting these 2 violators of democratic norms. They're the ones making it an issue.

[Tofer]

19 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 

The usual Brexiteer response when challenged on a false statement they have made. You are unable to name a single UK criminal who has been released by the ECJ because, as the link I provided to the role of the ECJ proves, there are none and never have been!

 

However, you began with

 

It is not I who is displaying ignorance; it is you.

 

By 'EUC of human rights' I assume that you mean the European Court of Human Rights. This is not a court of the European Union and never has been. It is the court of the Council of Europe. Brexit will have zero effect on our membership of the CoE.

Winston Churchill first suggested such a council in Parliament in 1943, and again in his Zurich speech of 1946. It was brought into being by the 1949 Treaty of London, the signatories to and so original members being Belgium, Denmark, France, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Norway, Sweden and the United Kingdom. 

 

The CoE now has 47 member states, including all 27 EU members. 

As already said, the ECHR and it's court are a function of the CoE, not the EU.

 

How many UK criminal convictions have been overturned by the ECtHR? 

 

Well, from Full Fact in September 2015.

 But that only counts the cases which actually reached the court; most are dismissed before that stage is reached. UK loses 3 out of 4 European human rights cases? More like 1 in 50, actually

 

 

Point taken, I confused the 2. Happy now  -  I was wrong. A phrase we'll never hear from you I suspect.

 

Having said that, on much the same subject - Deportation of the murderer Learco Chindamo (Italian national) was prevented by the EU Freedom of Movement Law - The Citizens Directive 2004. Leaving the victims wife Frances Lawrence "facing up to a lifetime haunted by her husbands killer because his human rights are considered more important than her own".

 

Another issue being freedom of movement across borders, which the EU have no effective policy towards illegal entry. The Express wrote, "Brussels paves the illegal immigrants road to UK by ruling they can't be detained" - Ghanaian national Selina Affum using a fake passport attempting to enter the UK could not be locked up or detained pending deportation proceedings as ruled by the ECJ.

So hear we have the EU Court of Justice not preventing, i.e. aiding, the illegal immigrants 'criminal activities', in their attempts to cross illegally to the UK, aside from perpetuating the criminal and life threatening trafficking gangs activities. Not to mention the French's aiding and abetting the channel crossing of illegal migrants by escorting them as far as British waters in the Channel. Now I understand why the UK Home Office is frustrated in their efforts to stop this activity and return illegal migrants, thanks also to the lefty lawyers using these laws to prevent it. Not for much longer thank goodness...

 

So there you have it, the EU are not so lilly white as you would have us believe.

[Tofer]

20 hours ago, david555 said:

Here read this then you know little bit more about Mr Orban ..... the fact why he is vetoing and E,U. putting him under suspicion as E.U. money is wrong used ...... (seems to happen now in U.K. too with those Covid 19 needs ordered to friends from certain politician(s) ) ???? to deliver,

 

Pot calling kettle, I believe the EU have not produced any audit of their accounts yet......

[Tofer]

39 minutes ago, placeholder said:

That wasn't me. But I don't see what jurisdiction has to do with supporting these 2 violators of democratic norms. They're the ones making it an issue.

 

Who said I support them.

 

I was simply making a point that the EU couldn't instigate a budget and recovery fund, in reply to Davi555's crowing that the UK was mired in debt.

[david555]

7 minutes ago, Tofer said:

 

Who said I support them.

 

I was simply making a point that the EU couldn't instigate a budget and recovery fund, in reply to Davi555's crowing that the UK was mired in debt.

It is not crowing it is just mentining a fact .....

 

Strange you understand sometimes my bad English ....and when the topic is embarrasing ...then a sudden not ....????

End game coming close  brexiteers ...getting nervous ...? Your vote won ...so now enjoy it living under it ..???? .

 

 

 

[david555]

Difficult about the fish ?....Here comes the answer ....i would even think is the original plan .....????????

More worth than the fish...

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/nov/27/city-of-london-brexit-eu-finance-access-europe

 

Financial sector

 

City of London faces Brexit uncertainty over access to EU markets

UK’s failure to offer assurances over regulatory changes is causing delays, EU diplomats told

 

Daniel Boffey in Brussels

Fri 27 Nov 2020 16.14 GMT Last modified on Fri 27 Nov 2020 18.34 GMT

 

The City of London is facing fresh Brexit uncertainty after Brussels raised doubts over access to the EU market being granted by the end of the year for firms in any of the 26 areas of the financial services sector awaiting decisions.

 

Diplomats for the EU’s member states were told in a behind-closed-doors meeting in Brussels that the failure of the British government to offer assurances over regulatory changes after 1 January was holding up the so-called “equivalence decisions”.

 

A European commission official said it was unclear whether it was in the EU’s interests to go any further in providing access to the European market for those working out of the UK given the uncertainty.

 

 

 

Edited November 28, 2020 by david555

[sandyf]

17 minutes ago, david555 said:

End game coming close  brexiteers ...getting nervous ...? Your vote won ...so now enjoy it living under it ..???? .

Many are already seeing the error of their ways, but the hardliners never will.

They will still see success as poverty and unemployment steadily rise.

[7by7]

16 hours ago, kingdong said:

The eu showing their true colours

 

How? By reminding everyone of the truth?

 

The EU want a deal, but everyone who isn't wearing jingoistic blinkers knows that we need a deal more than they do.

[7by7]

2 hours ago, Tofer said:

 

Point taken, I confused the 2. Happy now  -  I was wrong. A phrase we'll never hear from you I suspect.

 

Having said that, on much the same subject - Deportation of the murderer Learco Chindamo (Italian national) was prevented by the EU Freedom of Movement Law - The Citizens Directive 2004. Leaving the victims wife Frances Lawrence "facing up to a lifetime haunted by her husbands killer because his human rights are considered more important than her own".

 

Another issue being freedom of movement across borders, which the EU have no effective policy towards illegal entry. The Express wrote, "Brussels paves the illegal immigrants road to UK by ruling they can't be detained" - Ghanaian national Selina Affum using a fake passport attempting to enter the UK could not be locked up or detained pending deportation proceedings as ruled by the ECJ.

So hear we have the EU Court of Justice not preventing, i.e. aiding, the illegal immigrants 'criminal activities', in their attempts to cross illegally to the UK, aside from perpetuating the criminal and life threatening trafficking gangs activities. Not to mention the French's aiding and abetting the channel crossing of illegal migrants by escorting them as far as British waters in the Channel. Now I understand why the UK Home Office is frustrated in their efforts to stop this activity and return illegal migrants, thanks also to the lefty lawyers using these laws to prevent it. Not for much longer thank goodness...

 

So there you have it, the EU are not so lilly white as you would have us believe.

 

It was not the ECJ which ruled Chindamo could not be deported; it was the UK's Asylum and Immigration tribunal.

Quote

In August 2007, an Asylum and Immigration Tribunal ruled that Chindamo could not be deported to his home country of Italy on completion of his prison sentence.^[5] He had resided in the UK for 19 years, long enough to make him a permanent resident under EU law after discounting 10 years spent in jail. As such, only 'serious grounds of...public security' could justify his expulsion.^[6] The tribunal disagreed with the Home Office's argument that this threshold was reached in Chindamo's case. The tribunal found that even if the EU law argument had failed, he would have a right to stay under human rights law. In the exceptional circumstances of his having lived in England since age 6, an Article 8 right to "family life" was found in relation to his mother and siblings.^[7](Source)

7by7 emphasis

 

Similar rulings based upon the right to family life have been made regarding non EU nationals who have resided in the UK for many years. The case of Sakchai Makao springs to mind.

 

The fact is that the FoM directive does not prevent the deportation of EU national criminals from their host member back to their home country. See What is the law governing the deportation of EU nationals?

 

The ECJ did rule that Sélina Affum was an illegal entrant to France and could be deported; CJEU - Case C‑47/15, Sélina Affum v Préfet du Pas-de-Calais, Procureur général de la cour d’appel de Douai. It did not aide her in her attempts to enter the UK illegally.

 

Of course, as the UK is not in the Schengen area, and never has been, an illegal immigrant in France does not have their road to the UK paved!

 

The matter of illegals being escorted to the UK by French boats has been discussed many times, though not British boats escorting them back to France as you lot like to ignore that! It happens as a result of international law and is nothing to do with the EU and ECJ.

 

BTW, still waiting for an answer to the question I asked you here:

 You're quick to demand answers from others, but very reluctant to provide them yourself!

Edited November 28, 2020 by 7by7
Addendum

[Tofer]

4 hours ago, david555 said:

It is not crowing it is just mentining a fact .....

 

Strange you understand sometimes my bad English ....and when the topic is embarrasing ...then a sudden not ....????

End game coming close  brexiteers ...getting nervous ...? Your vote won ...so now enjoy it living under it ..???? .

 

 

 

 

I live in Thailand, so not really my problem, certainly no nerves.

[Tofer]

2 hours ago, 7by7 said:

It was not the ECJ which ruled Chindamo could not be deported; it was the UK's Asylum and Immigration tribunal.

 

Constrained by the EU Freedom of Movement Law.

 

2 hours ago, 7by7 said:

Of course, as the UK is not in the Schengen area, and never has been, an illegal immigrant in France does not have their road to the UK paved!

 

They are sat in Calais waiting to be trafficked and the French Navy are escorting them, whether you like to admit or not, to the UK side of the English Channel.

 

2 hours ago, 7by7 said:

though not British boats escorting them back to France as you lot like to ignore that!

 

Evidenced where?

 

2 hours ago, 7by7 said:

You're quick to demand answers from others, but very reluctant to provide them yourself!

 

And visa versa.

[david555]

1 hour ago, Tofer said:

 

I live in Thailand, so not really my problem, certainly no nerves.

Congratulations ...you understand my bad (that's true anyway ????) English now ...your IQ is improving it seems ????

Not your problem ...but it make you buzzy reacting anyway...

 

BTW  I am also living Thailand but does not stop me E.U. 's case concerning  .....

[david555]

Intersting news for the Irish.....they dont feel abanded nor isolated after brexit...????

 

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-ferry-route-france-ireland-b1763239.html

 

Brexit: New ferry freight route opens between France and Ireland

 

Alessio Perrone

45 minutes ago

 

A new freight ferry route linking Ireland and France will open after the end of the Brexit transition period, offering “direct and paperless transport between EU countries”.

DFDS, a Danish international shipping and logistics company, said Friday that it would start operating sailings on the route between Dunkirk and Rosslare on 2 January 2021.

 

The company said that the move is expected to reduce companies’ dependence on the UK land bridge and create new trade opportunities within the EU’s single market.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 28, 2020 by david555

[sandyf]

9 hours ago, david555 said:

Intersting news for the Irish.....they dont feel abanded nor isolated after brexit...????

 

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-ferry-route-france-ireland-b1763239.html

 

Brexit: New ferry freight route opens between France and Ireland

 

Alessio Perrone

45 minutes ago

 

A new freight ferry route linking Ireland and France will open after the end of the Brexit transition period, offering “direct and paperless transport between EU countries”.

DFDS, a Danish international shipping and logistics company, said Friday that it would start operating sailings on the route between Dunkirk and Rosslare on 2 January 2021.

 

The company said that the move is expected to reduce companies’ dependence on the UK land bridge and create new trade opportunities within the EU’s single market.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The reality of brexit, circumvent "the problem".

[david555]

10 minutes ago, sandyf said:

The reality of brexit, circumvent "the problem".

So does the "solution " .... just bypass "the inflictors " of brexit....????

Nice solution avoiding the ( censored... ) ???? of Kent  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 29, 2020 by david555

[kingdong]

9 hours ago, david555 said:

Intersting news for the Irish.....they dont feel abanded nor isolated after brexit...????

 

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-ferry-route-france-ireland-b1763239.html

 

Brexit: New ferry freight route opens between France and Ireland

 

Alessio Perrone

45 minutes ago

 

A new freight ferry route linking Ireland and France will open after the end of the Brexit transition period, offering “direct and paperless transport between EU countries”.

DFDS, a Danish international shipping and logistics company, said Friday that it would start operating sailings on the route between Dunkirk and Rosslare on 2 January 2021.

 

The company said that the move is expected to reduce companies’ dependence on the UK land bridge and create new trade opportunities within the EU’s single market.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Looks like a bit of a circular route,fares are going to be a bit trumpy,lets see how long that lasts.

[kingdong]

8 minutes ago, david555 said:

So does the "solution " .... just bypass "the inflictors " of brexit....????

Nice solution avoiding the ( censored... ) ???? of Kent  

 

What got censored? The m 20?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[david555]

7 minutes ago, kingdong said:

Looks like a bit of a circular route,fares are going to be a bit trumpy,lets see how long that lasts.

All ways are worth avoiding that problem created on the shortest route ... btw once arriving the shortest route , a long way driving was anyway there to do ...so by this simple bypass avoiding any paperwork and the U.K.road driving as E.U. to E.U territory is worth it also .

 

And helping our "best U.K.neighbor friends " ???? lorry traffic jam making smaller  ????

 

 

Edited November 29, 2020 by david555

[sandyf]

5 minutes ago, kingdong said:

Looks like a bit of a circular route.

Yes that is the second leg, with Rosyth to Zeebrugge already in place, it only needs Cairnryan to Dublin to complete the circle.

[david555]

4 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Yes that is the second leg, with Rosyth to Zeebrugge already in place, it only needs Cairnryan to Dublin to complete the circle.

And just realized it could serve in future to go further to an Independant Scotland ..

.no need to passby Adrians wall ....England missing tarifs....????

[kingdong]

14 minutes ago, david555 said:

All ways are worth avoiding that problem created on the shortest route ... btw once arriving the shortest route , a long way driving was anyway there to do ...so by this simple bypass avoiding any paperwork and the U.K.road driving as E.U. to E.U territory is worth it also .

 

And helping our "best U.K.neighbor friends " ???? lorry traffic jam making smaller  ????

 

 

The problem could be solved by sticking a security seal on the cargo when the lorry embarks at.dover and removed at the port when it leaves uk.

[sandyf]

14 minutes ago, david555 said:

And just realized it could serve in future to go further to an Independant Scotland ..

Exactly what I meant. The land links would be Rosyth to Cairnryan, Dublin to Rosslare, and Dunkirk to Zeebrugge.

The circle of life, outside England - one has to live in hope.

 

[placeholder]

18 hours ago, david555 said:

Difficult about the fish ?....Here comes the answer ....i would even think is the original plan .....????????

More worth than the fish...

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/nov/27/city-of-london-brexit-eu-finance-access-europe

 

Financial sector

 

City of London faces Brexit uncertainty over access to EU markets

UK’s failure to offer assurances over regulatory changes is causing delays, EU diplomats told

 

Daniel Boffey in Brussels

Fri 27 Nov 2020 16.14 GMT Last modified on Fri 27 Nov 2020 18.34 GMT

 

The City of London is facing fresh Brexit uncertainty after Brussels raised doubts over access to the EU market being granted by the end of the year for firms in any of the 26 areas of the financial services sector awaiting decisions.

 

Diplomats for the EU’s member states were told in a behind-closed-doors meeting in Brussels that the failure of the British government to offer assurances over regulatory changes after 1 January was holding up the so-called “equivalence decisions”.

 

A European commission official said it was unclear whether it was in the EU’s interests to go any further in providing access to the European market for those working out of the UK given the uncertainty.

 

 

 

Well, the silver lining is that it should lower housing prices in London & vicinity.

[david555]

1 hour ago, kingdong said:

The problem could be solved by sticking a security seal on the cargo when the lorry embarks at.dover and removed at the port when it leaves uk.

True..but by this way saving ruining your roads and lower road congestion for goods with  anyway not U.K. destination .

 

 

[7by7]

20 hours ago, Tofer said:

Constrained by the EU Freedom of Movement Law

 

I can easily believe that you found Colin Yeo's article difficult to comprehend. But what is it about "The tribunal found that even if the EU law argument had failed, he would have a right to stay under human rights law" that you don't understand?

21 hours ago, Tofer said:

They are sat in Calais waiting to be trafficked

And the French are doing what they can to stop them. Two recent examples: from 29/9/20 French police clear migrant camp at launch point for Britain; from10/7/20 Police dismantle a makeshift shelter camp in Calais.

 

Of course this is nothing new. From1/3/16: Demolition teams begin to dismantle Calais 'Jungle'

 

21 hours ago, Tofer said:

and the French Navy are escorting them, whether you like to admit or not, to the UK side of the English Channel.

As already said, what the French navy, and UK border Force, do depends on where the boats are found and what the conditions are. That is international maritime law and nothing to do with the EU.

 

The French do, of course, stop migrants from crossing the Channel. France 'as committed as UK' to stop Channel crossings, MPs told

Quote

The Home Affairs Select Committee heard evidence from Dan O'Mahoney, the Home Office's clandestine Channel threat commander, who said France had stopped 3,000 people crossing in 2020.

On Wednesday, a record 416 migrants crossed the Channel from France.

Mr O'Mahoney said almost 200 were stopped by the French on the same day.

 

You shouldn't rely on people like Farage for information on this: France “escorts” migrants to the United Kingdom: the leader of the Brexit Party

Quote

An interior ministry spokesman said, “These remarks are completely untrue. The Border Force intercepted five boats that day. The one “spotted” by Mr. Farage was already on our radar when he called him and was included in the numbers we gave."

 That article also gives a reminder of the law

Quote

International law prevents Britain and France from turning around and ships from both countries follow ships in case of difficulties. They cannot intervene with the boats without being invited to do so.

I remind you again; international law, not EU law.

 

21 hours ago, Tofer said:

23 hours ago, 7by7 said:

though not British boats escorting them back to France as you lot like to ignore that!

 

Evidenced where?

 

I admit that such evidence is almost impossible to find as the UK media are as disinterested in it as you are. But  international law means that migrant boats cannot be stopped unless they are in difficulties. British boats would do the same with migrants found in difficulties in French waters as French boats do with migrant boats found in British waters.

 

Although not directly about the Channel, this scholarly article may help you understand the law on this: The duty to rescue refugees and migrants at sea.

 

21 hours ago, Tofer said:

23 hours ago, 7by7 said:

You're quick to demand answers from others, but very reluctant to provide them yourself!

 

And visa versa.

 

I have answered every question put to me.

 

You have answered very few; if any.