UK business groups urge Britain, EU to find compromise: FT

[transam]

13 minutes ago, Matzzon said:

Why are you calling other posters names, as soon as you do not agree? 

Again, who have I called a name.....?

[luckyluke]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

The "business people" can have as many opinions as they like but it is only the negotiators that count. 

I am sure that Boris wants a deal as much as anyone, but not at any price. The EU are trying their best to get their "pound of flesh" and it is not working.

I am sure that the E.U. wants a deal too.

I hope they find a middle way, as this " Fishing War " is according to me ridiculous, if one consider what it only represent in regard to the complete package.

But for both parties it is a matter of principles.

And it is well known that in principles discussions, common sense is absent and ignored.

[vogie]

1 minute ago, luckyluke said:

I am sure that the E.U. wants a deal too.

I hope they find a middle way, as this " Fishing War " is according to me ridiculous, if one consider what it only represent in regard to the complete package.

But for both parties it is a matter of principles.

And it is well known that in principles discussions, common sense is absent and ignored.

I am sure that the EU wants a deal also, but it is those words again "not at any price". They know our red lines and if they insist we abandon the reasons we are leaving the EU in the first for, there cannot be a hope in hell of a deal. I can only re-iterate Boris wants a deal, but selling his grandmother to get one is a non starter.

[luckyluke]

1 minute ago, transam said:

Again, who have I called a name.....?

I think he misunderstood " bulldog breed ".

 

I remember the "Bulldog Drummond's". 

 

[transam]

1 minute ago, luckyluke said:

I think he misunderstood " bulldog breed ".

 

I remember the "Bulldog Drummond's". 

 

I think he misunderstands a great deal....????

[luckyluke]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

I am sure that the EU wants a deal also, but it is those words again "not at any price". They know our red lines and if they insist we abandon the reasons we are leaving the EU in the first for, there cannot be a hope in hell of a deal. I can only re-iterate Boris wants a deal, but selling his grandmother to get one is a non starter.

The problem is the concept " not at any price " which is very relative, and thus in many ways interpretable.

"Fair" and " In no way " can be both used for the same proposal done.

Both parties convinced that their appellation is the only correct one. 

[puipuitom]

30 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

I am sure that the E.U. wants a deal too.

I hope they find a middle way, as this " Fishing War " is according to me ridiculous, if one consider what it only represent in regard to the complete package.

But for both parties it is a matter of principles.

And it is well known that in principles discussions, common sense is absent and ignored.

"Fishing War"? ? 0,12 % of British GDP ? ? ?

It's about : when you want to sell inside the EU, you follow the rules of the EU yes or no ? You think any Thai, Vietnamese, Chinese exporter can export to the EU on bases of Thai / Vietnamese / Chinese law ? For under British etc law: keep in your own country.

BRC is already replaced by IFS safety certification. Just ask any Thai exporter.

If there is a point of discussion of disagree: to which court to go.

It's the British "make industry", the financial service of London City at stake.

 

But...  2 1/2 months away... you think there is even ONE industry, who did not already conclude contracts for their raw materials, spare parts and components from other origins than the British, with no idea about price (seen import duty) or reliance on just-in-time supply seen traffic jam in Kent and custom clerarance out of UK and on the other side going in the EU ?

Same for the distribution: fro sure the retail already switched for their supply per 1 Jan 21. This will be visable when the stocks on the ERU side are absorbed and British industry see empty order books.

 

Brexit No Deal is already in force.

Edited October 18, 2020 by puipuitom

[Loiner]

1 hour ago, luckyluke said:

 

A business group of 70 is asking to continue the negotiations, as according to them too much is at stake.

In post 2 I wondered if this request will influence in any way the previous decision made by Mr. Johnson, at the same time what the opinion of Joe Bloggs ( The man in the street) would be about this request done by this group of business people which apparently give work to 7 million people.

 

 

A business group of 70 wants to continue negotiations because for them too much is at stake? The group does not represent the man in the street, but their own vested business interests. Many of the group are also EU based companies or owned/managed by Europeans, so their definition of what is at stake will not be the best for the UK or the man in the UK street.

The man in the street gave his opinion of what he wanted in the referendum, then reinforced that decision in the 2019 General Election to get Brexit done. 

[Kadilo]

43 minutes ago, transam said:

 

 

As for post counts, well I have been here for 14 years, try doing the maths.....????

Yea fair play. “Word association” is not really my thing tbh.  

[puipuitom]

1 hour ago, transam said:

I was going to ask you the same thing as you don't seem to understand what's been going on regarding the UK being treated the same as other non EU countries, plus the UK waters now are under the control of the UK, not the EU or your Sweden....

80% of the Welsh fishing rights are already sold 30 years ago to Spanish fishermen, and 54,6% of the English fishing rights to EU fishermen

THIS is the REAL reason: just as the "Withdrawal Bill", Boris Cummings want to cancel these agreements and of course.. do not pay any cent in return. The value of a British contract: not even worth the ink is was signed with.

https://www.bbc.com/news/52420116

[puipuitom]

6 minutes ago, Loiner said:

A business group of 70 wants to continue negotiations because for them too much is at stake? The group does not represent the man in the street, but their own vested business interests. Many of the group are also EU based companies or owned/managed by Europeans, so their definition of what is at stake will not be the best for the UK or the man in the UK street.
The man in the street gave his opinion of what he wanted in the referendum, then reinforced that decision in the 2019 General Election to get Brexit done. 

When the "man in the street" will discover his job is gone - and not for a few weeks but for many years to come - , just as these business group of 70 so often warned for, I am curious, what happens then. Maybe all can go back to agriculture, like in the times of Alfred the Great ?

[candide]

12 minutes ago, Loiner said:

A business group of 70 wants to continue negotiations because for them too much is at stake? The group does not represent the man in the street, but their own vested business interests. Many of the group are also EU based companies or owned/managed by Europeans, so their definition of what is at stake will not be the best for the UK or the man in the UK street.

The man in the street gave his opinion of what he wanted in the referendum, then reinforced that decision in the 2019 General Election to get Brexit done. 

Incidentally, they are also employing the man in the street....

[luckyluke]

8 minutes ago, Loiner said:

The man in the street gave his opinion of what he wanted in the referendum, then reinforced that decision in the 2019 General Election to get Brexit done. 

Fair enough.

But does you mean by that that the man in the street should stop there and no have further opinions about what happens in his country regarding Brexit.

They all know that Brexit is a done fact.

Deal, or no deal, not yet.

Their opinion will have no effect on the outcome, but one can not forbidden them to think.

On the other hand the opinion of 70 businessmen is not something to take lightly.

Politics and business are always very close, a clever politician and a clever businessman knows this.

[Loiner]

10 minutes ago, puipuitom said:

When the "man in the street" will discover his job is gone - and not for a few weeks but for many years to come - , just as these business group of 70 so often warned for, I am curious, what happens then. Maybe all can go back to agriculture, like in the times of Alfred the Great ?

 

7 minutes ago, candide said:

Incidentally, they are also employing the man in the street....

Big business has never had much concern for its' employees or the man in the street, so we shouldn't expect much change there, particularly from the EU companies.

Are they all going to shut up shop now? Project Fear didn't happen over the last four years and won't happen now, even if you Euros hope it will.

[dunroaming]

3 hours ago, nauseus said:

No mocking - just ask the man in the street.

But the man in the street has no idea what Brexit means.  At the time of the referendum people thought they knew what Brexit meant based on what each campaign told them.  But both sides lied which became clear after the result.  When I say clear, it was actually as clear as mud!  Since then there have been so many U-turns, broken promises and goal post moving that all we know is that at the end of the year we will be out of the EU completely.  When I say completely, that will depend on any trade deal that is struck, or not.

 

However the elephant in the room is Covid-19 or rather the fallout from it.  It will have a negative effect on the worlds economy for some time and that will certainly effect the UK and the EU alike.  So asking the man in the street what Brexit means is just about the most futile question you can think of.  Whatever it meant 4 years ago bears no relationship to what it will mean now.

 

[Nigel Garvie]

It is sad to read through 5 pages of petty bickering, with only a rare reference to the actual topic. 

These businesses represent 7 million workers for heaven's sakes. Do we despise their views so much that we rush to ignore them, as in Boris's infamous "(deleted) business" statement.   Who ever the businesses are ultimately owned by, do you imagine that they don't want to make a profit?

 

Ah yes the holy "Man in the street", we must all bow down and worship him. Unfortunately this pathetic uncritical worship has now led us to mob rule. 

 

But who cares, looks like we would rather destroy our economy and go to hell in a hand cart in pursuit of our sacred Brexit, than at least listening to the views of the people who actually make the money for UK plc.

 

I cannot imagine any other PM in my lifetime who would not have enough common sense, let alone brains, to at least engage in dialogue with such a large proportion of British business.

[Kadilo]

6 minutes ago, Nigel Garvie said:

 

 

I cannot imagine any other PM in my lifetime who would not have enough common sense, let alone brains, to at least engage in dialogue with such a large proportion of British business.

I am sure behind the scenes it will happen even if Boris wants to keep up this show. 

 

......and people moan about the Thais and face saving. 

Edited October 18, 2020 by Kadilo

[luckyluke]

4 minutes ago, Loiner said:

Big business has never had much concern for its' employees or the man in the street,

I don't think these 70 business people are very concerned about the fate of their 7000000 employees.

But what financial may happen with them, and the decision taken by their stockholders.

It is a fact that they don't believe in the positive financial outcome of a no-deal Brexit.

Their "manifesto" is there to proof it.

[nauseus]

10 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

But the man in the street has no idea what Brexit means.  At the time of the referendum people thought they knew what Brexit meant based on what each campaign told them.  But both sides lied which became clear after the result.  When I say clear, it was actually as clear as mud!  Since then there have been so many U-turns, broken promises and goal post moving that all we know is that at the end of the year we will be out of the EU completely.  When I say completely, that will depend on any trade deal that is struck, or not.

 

However the elephant in the room is Covid-19 or rather the fallout from it.  It will have a negative effect on the worlds economy for some time and that will certainly effect the UK and the EU alike.  So asking the man in the street what Brexit means is just about the most futile question you can think of.  Whatever it meant 4 years ago bears no relationship to what it will mean now.

 

The original 'man in the street' mention was not mine. If you read back you might wonder you replied to me with this? However, I do think that the Covid reference is irrelevant. 

[dunroaming]

5 minutes ago, Kadilo said:

I am sure behind the scenes it will happen even if Boris wants to keep up this show. 

 

......and people moan about the Thais and face saving. 

I have always thought that this was just posturing by Johnson, as instructed by his puppet master Cummings.  I have always thought that he would fold at the eleventh hour and agree to the deal that the EU want.

[dunroaming]

1 minute ago, nauseus said:

The original 'man in the street' mention was not mine. If you read back you might wonder you replied to me with this? However, I do think that the Covid reference is irrelevant. 

I pulled the man in the street reference to make a point.  Who made it in the first place is not of any concern.  Interesting that you think that the fallout from the pandemic will have no bearing on the effects of Brexit though. 

[transam]

42 minutes ago, puipuitom said:

When the "man in the street" will discover his job is gone - and not for a few weeks but for many years to come - , just as these business group of 70 so often warned for, I am curious, what happens then. Maybe all can go back to agriculture, like in the times of Alfred the Great ?

You do worry too much, and you're not even British.....????

[Loiner]

9 hours ago, rooster59 said:

"With compromise and tenacity, a deal can be done. Businesses call on leaders on both sides to find a route through", the newspaper quoted the groups as saying in a statement.

These suits should be over the other side of the channel, preaching to Barnier and Macron. (Merkel has been told by her own people already.) It's no good Remainer moaning still at this stage. Between those two and working for their own political ends, they have allowed the negotiations to fail. 

 

It is the EU politicians who are causing the problem in trying to punish the UK; bringing unrealistic conditions; not actually wanting a deal at any price; not recognising the UK's sovereignty; and therefore not negotiating in good faith. It's up to the EU to find their route to a deal now, that's if they honestly want one.

If not, No Deal is still OK for us.

[nauseus]

1 minute ago, dunroaming said:

I pulled the man in the street reference to make a point.  Who made it in the first place is not of any concern.  Interesting that you think that the fallout from the pandemic will have no bearing on the effects of Brexit though. 

OK then, just another fickernus insinuation, which concerned me because you replied to my post. I did not say that I think that the fallout from the pandemic will have no bearing on the effects of Brexit - it is and will have broad bad effects on economies in any case - not just limited to Brexit. I expect that this pandemic will used an excuse to justify several things, including remaining in the EU, which is what you seem to be trying to do now.  

[vogie]

47 minutes ago, puipuitom said:

When the "man in the street" will discover his job is gone - and not for a few weeks but for many years to come - , just as these business group of 70 so often warned for, I am curious, what happens then. Maybe all can go back to agriculture, like in the times of Alfred the Great ?

Are you suggesting that all the Ten Plagues of Egypt will only hit the UK and your beloved EU will only suffer covid19, if so, that would have to be a very biased opinion. 

The only way for movement is to allow the UK the same deal as Canada, and that looks very unlikely, but if they did agree to such a deal, there would be very little suffering to both sides and that won't do will it because they want to cut their noses off to spite their faces.

Boris is not bluffing, and their refusal of a Canada deal will only result in a 'sod the EU' from Boris.

[Kadilo]

19 minutes ago, transam said:

You do worry too much, and you're not even British.....????

Says the guy making the point that more people should post and these kind of posts are tiresome. Or can they only post if they agree with you ?

 

Doesn’t make his opinion any less valid as someone who is posting from Thailand. 

Edited October 18, 2020 by Kadilo

[dunroaming]

2 minutes ago, nauseus said:

OK then, just another fickernus insinuation, which concerned me because you replied to my post. I did not say that I think that the fallout from the pandemic will have no bearing on the effects of Brexit - it is and will have broad bad effects on economies in any case - not just limited to Brexit. I expect that this pandemic will used an excuse to justify several things, including remaining in the EU, which is what you seem to be trying to do now.  

Good that we seem to be on the same page on most of that then.  Love the "fikernous insinuation" reference!  However you are way off kilter thinking that I think it would be possible to stay in the EU now.  That ship sailed long ago when I moved my business to mainland Europe.  For the sake of the country, the best we can hope for is a trade deal and I still think that Johnson will buckle and agree to the one that the EU are offering.  After all that is the deal that Boris agreed to with the WA. 

 

Of course it could be that Cummings will decide to go with no-deal.  Easy for him as he doesn't have to deal with the people, he will just remain hiding in the shadows.  Let's see what happens. 

[transam]

8 minutes ago, Kadilo said:

Says the guy making the point that more people should post and these kind of posts are tiresome. Or can they only post if they agree with you ?

 

Doesn’t make his opinion any less valid as someone who is posting from Thailand. 

I am English posting from Thailand chap....????

 

Are you from Brussels posting from Thailand.....?  ????.....????

[luckyluke]

8 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

Let's see what happens.

Wise words.

 

[Rookiescot]

3 minutes ago, transam said:

I am English posting from Thailand chap....????

 

Are you from Brussels posting from Thailand.....?  ????.....????

And there we see the English exceptionalism again.

Are people who are not English allowed an opinion or not?