28 minutes ago, vogie said:

We would have had a deal many years ago if the remainers hadn't been sticking their oars in at every juncture. Their failure overturn democracy will cost them dearly, and so it should.

It’s always somebody else’s fault.

 

 

25 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

The USA needs us more than we need them. They will surely collapse when faced with a bit of bluff and bluster.

 

Another strawman. Care to argue against my actual position, rather than one you have created on my behalf?

1 hour ago, robblok said:

Yes and again the Brits are forced to bend. I mentioned it yesterday that they lost an ally in the US and now already it shows it effects. The Brits have even less power now then before in the negotiations.

 

I wonder how the Brexiteers are going to sell this. They kept telling me that the UK was holding the cards and had a strong position.

 

Looks more like quicksand to me.

 

You took your time. I thought our resident Brit hater would have been here a bit quicker than that ????.

 

How are we bending to Biden? What are we having to sell? 

32 minutes ago, vogie said:

We would have had a deal many years ago if the remainers hadn't been sticking their oars in at every juncture. Their failure overturn democracy will cost them dearly, and so it should.

and you are still using the same blame game over and over, can't you just admit the possibility of the other side (Brexiters) being responsible for the failures, could it be 50/50 or 60/40 or 75/25 or maybe 90/10 chose the % side as it fits your blame 555

3 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

“falsehoods” ???? 

And? David Davis is correct, there will be a considerable upside to Brexit. Who are you to say otherwise. Getting out of the EU would have been a walk in the park without the anti democratic remainers pulling in the opposite direction. 

David Cameron explained it all to you, you know the man, he was the PM at the time.

Just so y'all know, this issue didn't register at all as a campaign issue in the recent U.S. election, in which President Elect Biden win. Neither did U.S. - Brexit trade policy in general. 

Edited November 11, 20205 yr by Jingthing

4 minutes ago, Mavideol said:

and you are still using the same blame game over and over, can't you just admit the possibility of the other side (Brexiters) being responsible for the failures, could it be 50/50 or 60/40 or 75/25 or maybe 90/10 chose the % side as it fits your blame 555

The fact of the matter is that Brexit could have been done and dusted 2 years ago, to the remainers satisfaction to boot. At times it just felt as if us Brexiteers were just going along for the ride as it was a remainer parliament, but it turned out that the remainers were just a little too clever for their boots, and isn't it amazing how fortune favours the bold. Hold on in there remainers, it's gonna be a bumpy ride.

So to finalise, yes we are where we are today thanks to the remainers.

10 minutes ago, vogie said:

Getting out of the EU would have been a walk in the park

At least you’re finally admitting you were wrong. Wasn’t that hard, was it? 

1 hour ago, robblok said:

Yes and again the Brits are forced to bend. I mentioned it yesterday that they lost an ally in the US and now already it shows it effects. The Brits have even less power now then before in the negotiations.

 

I wonder how the Brexiteers are going to sell this. They kept telling me that the UK was holding the cards and had a strong position.

 

Looks more like quicksand to me.

Another Dutch Brit dig, how boring......????

 

"Again the Brits are forced to bend"........Forced by Biden,  how, do you know something I/we don't, link please....?

3 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

At least you’re finally admitting you were wrong. Wasn’t that hard, was it? 

Part quoting me is the only way you will make a point, allow me to show my full quote.

"Getting out of the EU would have been a walk in the park without the anti democratic remainers pulling in the opposite direction."

 

 

31 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

Another strawman. Care to argue against my actual position, rather than one you have created on my behalf?

And what is your actual position? That the USA will give a fair free trade deal or the UK will walk away?

My point is you shout the same thing about the EU and look how thats going.

Are you Brexiteers ever going to learn? Your feeling of English exceptionalism impresses no-one. When you are dealing with far larger trade blocks THEY dictate the terms.

I thought you would have figured all this out by now.

2 hours ago, Jingthing said:

I can see some of you UK people have your panties all in a twist about this but looking at this objectively not having Irish descent the demands of President Elect Biden sound entirely reasonable. 

So show me the ballot where Northern Ireland agreed to leave the rest of the UK (Yes I know NI voted to stay in the EU but the ballot was about leaving the EU not leaving the UK). 

 

Without a deal between the EU & the UK a border has to go between one of... 

1. (Rest of) EU <--> Republic or Ireland
2. Republic of Ireland <--> Northern Ireland
3. Northern Ireland <--> (Rest of) UK. 

EU (& Biden) are proposing number 3 as if this will maintain the piece between RI & NI, anybody can see that this will just cause the "Troubles" to start again with NI Unionists (quite rightly) claiming it cuts them off from the rest of the UK. 

 

A deal is the only way of maintaining the peace in Ireland, failing that Option 1 is much more likely to maintain the peace than options 2 or 3.

 

 

 

They should tread carefully. Full independence for NI would not end well but it would solve a lot of problems for the British government.

 

The consequences of Brexit are not just about the economy and trade deals  as for diplomacy is concerned, Ireland has the upper hand on the UK. 

Ireland (as well as geography) has imposed his solution for the Withdrawal Agreement because it has allies : the EU and now the US. 

 

The current populist government might well persist, but there will be no deals with the EU, no deal with the USA.. and they even messed up ratification of basic trade agreements with the rest of the world (we will know that in a few hours...). 

 

UK trade department faces race to get £80bn of trade agreements ratified

Deals to ensure UK can go on trading with non-EU countries after Brexit transition must be laid before parliament by Wednesday

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ments-ratified

Edited November 11, 20205 yr by Hi from France

37 minutes ago, vogie said:

Part quoting me is the only way you will make a point, allow me to show my full quote.

"Getting out of the EU would have been a walk in the park without the anti democratic remainers pulling in the opposite direction."

 

 

How does that change that you were wrong? The only thing the rest of your quote adds is giving a reason why you were wrong, I.e. because you misjudged the situation and the influence your political opponent would have. If that matters to you — fine. 

3 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

You’ll not want a trade deal with the US then.

don't need one...China is where its all happening.

4 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

 

But for all your bluff and bluster the UK finds itself unable to walk away. Johnson and the rest of his government could have walked away months ago but are slowly capitulating to the EU's position. 

Jingoism and flag waving gets you nowhere when it come to dealing with other countries and trade blocks. 

 

Yes, if I was Boris I would have walked away about 3 weeks ago. Boris has chosen to continue negotiating. Maybe he knows something we don't, maybe he believes the EU will finally compromise, or maybe he is simply going through the motions to cover his own arze for when No Deal happens so his detractors cannot say he didn't really try?

 

Neither of us are party to the discussions so we can only speculate. But yes, I do feel that it's a waste of time at this point and we'd be better off preparing for No Deal than wasting more time dealing with the continued intransigence of the corrupt protectionist racket that the EU has slowly become.

 

At this point, if Boris walked away and declared No Deal I would be happy. We've tried for a fair FTA, but the EU isn't acting in good faith with it's ridiculous demands for continued control, so based on those unreasonable demands it's time to leave the table and prepare for a clean break on January 1st.

1 hour ago, vogie said:

And? David Davis is correct, there will be a considerable upside to Brexit. Who are you to say otherwise. Getting out of the EU would have been a walk in the park without the anti democratic remainers pulling in the opposite direction. 

David Cameron explained it all to you, you know the man, he was the PM at the time.

The same Brexit backing David Davis who repeatedly turned up for Brexit negotiations completely unprepared.

1 hour ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

How does that change that you were wrong? The only thing the rest of your quote adds is giving a reason why you were wrong, I.e. because you misjudged the situation and the influence your political opponent would have. If that matters to you — fine. 

You stating falsehoods does not make me wrong. HTH

29 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

Yes, if I was Boris I would have walked away about 3 weeks ago. Boris has chosen to continue negotiating. Maybe he knows something we don't, maybe he believes the EU will finally compromise, or maybe he is simply going through the motions to cover his own arze for when No Deal happens so his detractors cannot say he didn't really try?

 

Neither of us are party to the discussions so we can only speculate. But yes, I do feel that it's a waste of time at this point and we'd be better off preparing for No Deal than wasting more time dealing with the continued intransigence of the corrupt protectionist racket that the EU has slowly become.

 

At this point, if Boris walked away and declared No Deal I would be happy. We've tried for a fair FTA, but the EU isn't acting in good faith with it's ridiculous demands for continued control, so based on those unreasonable demands it's time to leave the table and prepare for a clean break on January 1st.

You continually state that trading on WTO terms will be 'fine'. How do you then explain why governments the world over - including the current UK government - spend so much time and effort trying to broker deals with each other?

 

The truth is that tariffs are a barrier to trade and economic growth. Imo the 'defence ' that the other side will suffer just as much - if not more than us - is just economic sado-masochism.

2 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Just so y'all know, this issue didn't register at all as a campaign issue in the recent U.S. election, in which President Elect Biden win. Neither did U.S. - Brexit trade policy in general. 

If I could offer the President-Elect some advice it would be, apply to join the EU. Why? Because having been accepted, the US should promptly enact 'Amexit' and this will be the panacea for all evils.

 

Civil unrest? The fault of the EU. 'Amexit' will fix it. Ailing economy? The EU again. No problem though, 'Amexit's what you need. And how will 'Amexit' solve these problems? No need to concern yourself with the details. Just close your eyes tightly and wish really, really hard that everything will be ok. Hope this helps.

15 minutes ago, vogie said:

You stating falsehoods

No falsehoods. Evidence posted above. 

15 minutes ago, vogie said:

does not make me wrong. HTH

I used the plural “you”.

53 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

Yes, if I was Boris I would have walked away about 3 weeks ago. Boris has chosen to continue negotiating. Maybe he knows something we don't, maybe he believes the EU will finally compromise, or maybe he is simply going through the motions to cover his own arze for when No Deal happens so his detractors cannot say he didn't really try?

 

Neither of us are party to the discussions so we can only speculate. But yes, I do feel that it's a waste of time at this point and we'd be better off preparing for No Deal than wasting more time dealing with the continued intransigence of the corrupt protectionist racket that the EU has slowly become.

 

At this point, if Boris walked away and declared No Deal I would be happy. We've tried for a fair FTA, but the EU isn't acting in good faith with it's ridiculous demands for continued control, so based on those unreasonable demands it's time to leave the table and prepare for a clean break on January 1st.

I suspect Johnson has tried for his cake and eat Brexit but the EU has been consistent in its position from the very outset.

The reasons for the continued negotiations are I think more pragmatic. Johnson knows no deal is going to hammer the Uk's economy. And its going to come on top of the damage already done by corona. We are also spectacularly unprepared for a no deal Brexit and the changes it will bring to the transport of goods and services.

  

31 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

No falsehoods. Evidence posted above. 

I used the plural “you”.

On a Biden thread you should have used 'yall'

1 hour ago, RayC said:

You continually state that trading on WTO terms will be 'fine'. How do you then explain why governments the world over - including the current UK government - spend so much time and effort trying to broker deals with each other?

 

The truth is that tariffs are a barrier to trade and economic growth. Imo the 'defence ' that the other side will suffer just as much - if not more than us - is just economic sado-masochism.

 

Go and research how much of the world's trade is done on WTO terms.

 

The sado masochism that you speak of pretty much sums up the EU's approach to doing a deal with the UK. 

43 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

I suspect Johnson has tried for his cake and eat Brexit but the EU has been consistent in its position from the very outset.

I think you mean Johnson wants a standard, mutually beneficial trade deal while the EU wants to screw the UK over for having the temerity to leave it's corrupt protectionist racket?

This is beginning to feel like a marathon juggling competition with both sides trying to keep their balls in the air the longest.   I am referring to the TV posters who are just repeating the same old arguments over and over and getting no further forward at all.

 

What we need is some progress soon or we will all end up dropping our balls out of exhaustion! 

12 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Probably demands was too strong a word to use for the back and forth in the "special" relationship. But in effect, isn't that really what's going on? 

well I hope it is, debate among form friends, but demands should not be made by anyone in this process. 

24 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

I think you mean Johnson wants a standard, mutually beneficial trade deal while the EU wants to screw the UK over for having the temerity to leave it's corrupt protectionist racket?

And those terms from the EU are all you are getting. Now you casually claim we can just go to WTO rules but I have already pointed out the problem with that. So the UK is not ready for trade with the EU on WTO  terms and the UK cannot afford to trade with the EU on WTO terms.

Stop waving the flag and face reality. 

Biden still has to keep in mind: many US citizens are of Irish descent: About 33 million Americans — 10.1% of the total population — identified as being Irish in the 2017 American Community Survey conducted by the U.S. Census Bureau. This compares with a population of 6.9 million people on the island of Ireland.